Record-High 42% of Americans Identify as Independents

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Denny, I look at social security and see it as a great program that benefits our society. I guess that you see it as a boondoggle. I see public education as a great thing that government should provide. Although I would certainly like more rigorous standards and more money going into this. Same with healthcare. I am not so much of a fan of what we have now, I would like a truly universal coverage. These are difficult things to get right, but they can be done and as a society we should be looking year after year at how to improve what we have and work towards actually achieving a well functioning system, not throwing the baby out with the bath water and saying fuck it. We are more than a collection of individuals and the best way in my opinion to forge a great society is to find that fine line between the pooling of resources to form the scaffolding of a quality society and still permitting individuals to retain their own identity and decision making. This line is different for you and me.

Social Security is a transfer of wealth from the poor younger people to the rich older people in all but a small % of cases. Think about it. Homeowners who've paid off their homes and bought them back in 1970s for $15,000 and have $2M in wealth in their homes. It's also a ponzi scheme, since it is taking money from this generation to pay off commitments to previous ones. At least they could have done it right. So much for the experts. In any case, they do have welfare for the poor and if the elderly are poor they should get welfare.

Doctors always treated people who couldn't afford their fees. They'd take a pig or chicken in trade. I don't know where this need for universal insurance comes from, other than govt. already got involved and screwed things up. Please tell me why for life insurance or auto insurance (where they pay big claims) we see the companies competing with one another to offer it cheaper? (Save $450 switch to GEICO).

The problem with universal coverage is you'll have some committee of experts telling you you're too old to be worth wasting the Peoples' resources on so go away and die. Even if you have $2M in value in your home that you might want to use to pay for the treatment you need to live another 10 years.
 
The constitution says YOU know what's best for you.

Which is almost certainly true.

When you're not sure, YOU can ask the expert of your choice.

Why would I ask an expert? They're the ones who fucked everything up in the first place.
 
Why would I ask an expert? They're the ones who fucked everything up in the first place.

The one size fits all ones did, yeah. The ones you ask for your specific situation will surely do better for you.
 
Doctors always treated people who couldn't afford their fees. They'd take a pig or chicken in trade.

Darn that government, preventing doctors from accepting payment in pigs and chickens!

I tried to buy a sandwich today for two gerbils and Subway wouldn't take them. Thanks Obama!

barfo
 
Social Security is a transfer of wealth from the poor younger people to the rich older people in all but a small % of cases. Think about it. Homeowners who've paid off their homes and bought them back in 1970s for $15,000 and have $2M in wealth in their homes. It's also a ponzi scheme, since it is taking money from this generation to pay off commitments to previous ones. At least they could have done it right. So much for the experts. In any case, they do have welfare for the poor and if the elderly are poor they should get welfare.

Doctors always treated people who couldn't afford their fees. They'd take a pig or chicken in trade. I don't know where this need for universal insurance comes from, other than govt. already got involved and screwed things up. Please tell me why for life insurance or auto insurance (where they pay big claims) we see the companies competing with one another to offer it cheaper? (Save $450 switch to GEICO).

The problem with universal coverage is you'll have some committee of experts telling you you're too old to be worth wasting the Peoples' resources on so go away and die. Even if you have $2M in value in your home that you might want to use to pay for the treatment you need to live another 10 years.

Denny is correct about SS (and I collect it). However it is even worse than that when you consider it has been expanded over the years to cover and mean more things, like life insurance for kids. The dad dies and his kid get a stipend until 18, stuff like that should be a separate program with it's own funding if it is needed.

Then stuff like this was done with SS. During my military year, they hardly paid us. We did get
credit for the maximum SS payment you could make for a year though. So six years served, you are credited for max amounts paid into the system for those years served.

But now years later people begin to question whether you deserve your SS checks. I did sort of cringe reading Denny's assertion that SS is just a wealth transfer from poor youth to rich old people. In this case, it is kind of a deferred payment, deferred to today's youth by the old people of years gone by. It should not have been done that way, it was just another example of government screwing up a program.
 
Social Security is a transfer of wealth from the poor younger people to the rich older people in all but a small % of cases. Think about it. Homeowners who've paid off their homes and bought them back in 1970s for $15,000 and have $2M in wealth in their homes. It's also a ponzi scheme, since it is taking money from this generation to pay off commitments to previous ones. At least they could have done it right. So much for the experts. In any case, they do have welfare for the poor and if the elderly are poor they should get welfare.
I am 39, totally capable of holding and working a full time job or even more. My father at 70 is wearing down and it's quite nice that he is looked after, even if it is myself and other younger people footing the bill. We should respect and help our elders, perhaps a little bit more than just welfare, they are too old to learn the lesson and go back to work this time with more conviction, so instead of turning them out we protect them and give them some respect and comfort. And they have worked throughout their lives, paying into SS so they get some of that security. It's been a wonderful program. My parents have been fairly successful, saved some money, have a wonderful pension plan (PERS tier 1 which in Oregon is almost criminal how awesome it is) and SS. Between all that, they have enough to live very comfortably, not rich, but go on several trips a year and enjoy their golden years. If they didn't have any one of those components, it would detract from their lives. But for those who are a step or two below my parents, SS actually becomes a savior. I know for my grandmother it was a good portion what she spent after she lived past what was expected.

Doctors always treated people who couldn't afford their fees. They'd take a pig or chicken in trade. I don't know where this need for universal insurance comes from, other than govt. already got involved and screwed things up. Please tell me why for life insurance or auto insurance (where they pay big claims) we see the companies competing with one another to offer it cheaper? (Save $450 switch to GEICO).

The problem with universal coverage is you'll have some committee of experts telling you you're too old to be worth wasting the Peoples' resources on so go away and die. Even if you have $2M in value in your home that you might want to use to pay for the treatment you need to live another 10 years.

Screw universal insurance, i want universal health care. As an example my best friends youngest son got some bizarre health issue that put his life at risk. It took several months to take care of the main issue, seeing dozens of experts and even flying to see experts elsewhere. And still now, over a year later, dealing with resulting issues that require more experts and follow up surgeries. My friend is a very successful broker with a major bank and had excellent (read expensive) insurance. So far, the cost of what insurance didn't cover is over $300,000. That's a fucked up broken system. Healthcare should be free. Everyone needs it, it should be part of living in our society.

Not every system is designed right, and too many incentives are taken out of the system to ensure quality doctors. But that doesn't mean we should give up on the goal, it means building a better mouse trap. Figuring out how and where to cut money and where not to. It means that a doctors might make a bit less, but not so much less that it becomes not worth becoming a doc.

These aren't easy issues, they need competent people to navigate, but they are doable. Our society, or at least our government, is screwed up at the moment, but that shouldn't stop up from trying to fix the problems instead of just cutting out everything.
 
So someone needs to eat that $300K or tell the guy to go off and die.

Like I said.

Healthcare isn't FREE unless you make the doctors and nurses into slaves and steal all the drugs and equipment.
 
Healthcare should be free. Everyone needs it, it should be part of living in our society..

If you really mean that, then you need to make sure you don't get the BS that will accompany this right, like death panels like are infact in Obama Care. This idea was taken directly from the Oregon Health Plan. Perhaps you will recall some of the discussion that were the topic of the day when they have decided to let people die due to costs.

Universal HealthCare if it ever happens must be done through the Amendment process putting it in the Constitution and clearly defined what the intent of the program is including no death panels.

Right now with Obama Care you have no fucking idea what you have and nobody else does either. Obama is running this program as if he took his training from Benito Mussolini. He does indeed change the law as he sees fit, deferring this, and ignoring that, just as if he were indeed a Fascist dictator. Furthermore it needs to be a completely defined law that is amended, not like the damned 16th amendment that simply states that income can be taxed without the enumeration!!! Holy Crap! What a farce that is! The original income tax was to be 1 to 7 percent but that was not put in the amendment, nor was the meaning of income defined. That amendment just hog tied the American people to make them stand while the politicians search and feel to see what they can fleece from the hapless dweebs.

Don't let your healthcare become another handle like the sixteenth amendment.
 
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So someone needs to eat that $300K or tell the guy to go off and die.

Like I said.

Healthcare isn't FREE unless you make the doctors and nurses into slaves and steal all the drugs and equipment.

I don't think you understood, the $300,000 was for a 4 year old child. It's what wasn't covered, the covered portion is over a million.



And I'm not suggesting that healthcare is free, I saying it should be the burden on all in our society to make sure everyone gets quality treatment. Of course you and I will pay by way of taxation.
 
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If you really mean that, then you need to make sure you don't get the BS that will accompany this right, like death panels like are infact in Obama Care. This idea was taken directly from the Oregon Health Plan. Perhaps you will recall some of the discussion that were the topic of the day when they have decided to let people die due to costs.

Universal HealthCare if it ever happens must be done through the Amendment process putting it in the Constitution and clearly defined what the intent of the program is including no death panels.

Right now with Obama Care you have no fucking idea what you have and nobody else does either. Obama is running this program and if he took is training from Benito Mussolini. He does indeed change the law as he sees
fit, deferring this, and ignoring that, just as if he were indeed a Fascist dictator. Furthermore it needs to be a completely defined law that is amended, not like the damned 16th amendment that simply states that income
can be taxed without the enumeration!!! Holy Crap! What a farce that is! The original income tax was to be 1 to 7 percent but that was not put in the amendment, nor was the meaning of income defined. That amendment
just hog tied the American people to make them stand while the politicians search and feel to see what they can fleece from the hapless dweebs.

Don't let your healthcare become another handle like the sixteenth amendment.

Show me where death panels are in Obamacare.


Oh, and from your tone I can't take anything you say on this subject seriously. You have obviously been whipped into a frenzy to where you are believing anything coming from the anti-Obama people without using your reasoning skills.
 
You said it.

Yes, I said the words, but I meant that we should not have to pay at the point of sickness, it should be the burden of the entire society by way of taxes. It was a poor choice of words on my part.
 
Yes, I said the words, but I meant that we should not have to pay at the point of sickness, it should be the burden of the entire society by way of taxes. It was a poor choice of words on my part.

Death panels in the ACA.

http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatc...board-faces-growing-opposition-from-democrats

Your friend got over $1M of free health care by your figures and the doctors are potentially going to eat the other $300K if your friend doesn't pay up.

$1.3M and counting? Sounds like some committee of experts charged with holding down costs needs to get involved. NOT!
 
Yes, I said the words, but I meant that we should not have to pay at the point of sickness, it should be the burden of the entire society by way of taxes. It was a poor choice of words on my part.

So what's the limit on society's costs for healthcare? Unlimited? Or, do we do what single-payer countries do, and not treat terminal illness after a certain amount of money is spent for the patient?
 
So if a bunch of union workers pool their money and use it to lobby government, is that a bad thing? (I don't think so). So under what circumstances do you unequally treat groups of people that pool their money for the same purpose?

"Lobbying" is just another way of saying "buying votes/buying power/buying special treatment" " and is unConstitutional.
 
"Lobbying" is just another way of saying "buying votes/buying power/buying special treatment" " and is unConstitutional.

It's a way for a bunch of like-minded people to associate freely and have a megaphone and unified voice.
 
So what's the limit on society's costs for healthcare?

Currently there are no price controls imposed on the healthcare monopoly. If you want to limit costs, start voting for real socialized healthcare.

Free markets for any of life's necessities always result in the highest possible costs to society.
 
Further!

Did you identify a death panel?

The VA is already practicing some curious procedures. I just went through an odd set of live evaluations myself last Thursday in the Roseburg hospital.
I think I passed but it was a new experience.
 
Further!

Did you identify a death panel?

The VA is already practicing some curious procedures. I just went through an odd set of live evaluations myself last Thursday in the Roseburg hospital.
I think I passed but it was a new experience.


I identified two death panels. Life time caps and pre existing conditions. Both are now illegal, Thanks Obama!
 
I identified two death panels. Life time caps and pre existing conditions. Both are now illegal, Thanks Obama!

Did you know reading will help the un informed, even the ignorant. It won't do squat for stupid though.
 
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Did you know reading will help the un informed, even the ignorant. It won't squat for stupid though.

I think that could be the replacement for "Reading is Fun-damental".

"Reading Won't Squat for Stupid"

barfo
 
Why is the number of independents so high? My guess is it's primarily driven by people who identify with the Tea Party who realize the GOP doesn't really represent them. People assume independents are in the middle; my guess is there are huge numbers further to the left and the right than Democrats and Republicans who think of themselves as independents.
 
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...s-on-the-rise-but-still-trails-conservatives/

(CNN) - While more Americans continue to identify as conservatives rather than liberals, new numbers by Gallup indicate that the percentage who label themselves themselves as liberals is at a new high.

Twenty-three percent of Americans identified themselves as liberals last year, up a percentage point from 2012 and four points over the past decade, and its the highest level since Gallup started regularly measuring ideology in the current format in 1992.

But that's still far below the 38% who identified themselves as conservatives in 2013, which was down a point from the previous year. Thirty-four percent labeled themselves as moderates, also down a point from 2012.

"The rise in liberal identification has been accompanied by a decline in moderate identification," says a release by Gallup.

Gallup says their 2013 results are based on more than 18,000 interviews from 13 separate polls they conducted last year.
 

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