Record Number of US Citizenship Renouncements

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Mostly due to taxes.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/02/17/pf/taxes/citizenship-taxes/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Some of the rush is coming from expats who are tired of dealing with complicated tax filings -- which are only getting worse as new regulations come into effect.

Unlike most countries, the U.S. taxes citizens on all income, regardless of where it is earned or where they reside. Reporting taxes can be so difficult that expats are often forced to seek expert help, which can cost thousands of dollars.

 

[MARIS61]

Great news! Good riddance to deadbeats and leeches.

Now seize all their property and ban them from re-entry to the US.

 

[Denny Crane]

I'm not seeing any good from this.

They can own property here either way.

They really ought to confiscate Maris' home. So he can see what private property rights are all about.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Personally, if one earns money in this country, they should pay their fair share of taxes on it.

 

[Denny Crane]

Personally, if one earns money in this country, they should pay their fair share of taxes on it.

They do.

The US has a requirement you declare world-wide income and pay tax on it. You end up paying tax on it in the US and in the country you made the money in.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Personally, if one earns money in this country, they should pay their fair share of taxes on it.

Agreed. And they generally do. This sounds more like people living in other countries, making their money there, but forced to pay US income because they are US citizens. I have a "co-worker" in Germany that deals with this every year. He was born and raised here, but now lives in Germany, is married with a family and earns his living working for our parent company. Yet, he has to pay US income taxes. That seems a bit crazy.

Now, on the other side, our parent company, which also owns a winery here in the US (well, technically, the individual that owns the German winery owns an Oregon winery, not as I stated, a "parent company".)......... they do pay their fair share of income taxes on the income made here.

I can see why people would be giving up their citizenship if they're intending to stay overseas. The US taxes on income earned elsewhere quite likely make life much less affordable.

 

[MARIS61]

I'm not seeing any good from this.

They can own property here either way.

They really ought to confiscate Maris' home. So he can see what private property rights are all about.

I pay my taxes. I support my country and countrymen.

You are correct that some of them own property here. When property-owners refuse to pay their taxes, it is seized by the IRS for payment. Sometimes they even arrest and imprison tax-evaders.

I think it's great that they found a country they like better than America, and I wish them a happy existence there. I just don't want to have to finance their dual-citizenship for them.

 

[Denny Crane]

I pay my taxes. I support my country and countrymen.

You are correct that some of them own property here. When property-owners refuse to pay their taxes, it is seized by the IRS for payment. Sometimes they even arrest and imprison tax-evaders.

I think it's great that they found a country they like better than America, and I wish them a happy existence there. I just don't want to have to finance their dual-citizenship for them.

Property owners here pay property taxes or the land is confiscated. I figure a real estate professional would know that.

If they charge rent on it, they'll pay state income or hotel tax, too.

 

[mook]

As somebody moving to the UK, I really doubt I'll give up my US citizenship. I own property in the US, I own a business there, and I love hunting in Idaho. I want my boys to always have the option of moving back (which they have, really, whether I'm a citizen or not, since they were born in the US).

But the US is notorious for having some of the most ass-backwards tax laws for people in my boat among first world nations.

Moving to the UK, I receive almost no services from the US government. I don't use their roads, education system, health care system, infrastructure, criminal justice system....I'm being defended by the British military....so what exactly am I getting for my US taxes? Why should I pay them, other than it's the law and I consider myself an American at heart?

 

[MARIS61]

As somebody moving to the UK, I really doubt I'll give up my US citizenship. I own property in the US, I own a business there, and I love hunting in Idaho. I want my boys to always have the option of moving back (which they have, really, whether I'm a citizen or not, since they were born in the US).

But the US is notorious for having some of the most ass-backwards tax laws for people in my boat among first world nations.

Moving to the UK, I receive almost no services from the US government. I don't use their roads, education system, health care system, infrastructure, criminal justice system....I'm being defended by the British military....so what exactly am I getting for my US taxes? Why should I pay them, other than it's the law and I consider myself an American at heart?

Your business and property rely on the US for protection in many ways. You will no doubt vote for US reps and sign petitions and initiatives to change US laws...

 

[Denny Crane]

Your business and property rely on the US for protection in many ways. You will no doubt vote for US reps and sign petitions and initiatives to change US laws...

And if your 401K, or whatever, has shares of international companies, you are benefiting from foreign countries' laws in the same way.

 

[MARIS61]

And if your 401K, or whatever, has shares of international companies, you are benefiting from foreign countries' laws in the same way.

How you make these leaps is baffling.

1. I don't own property or businesses in other countries.
2. I have no investments in other countries.
3. I do not participate in elections in other countries.
4. I do not have a 401k, or any other foreign stocks, bonds, or mutual funds.

So, you are wrong, as usual. There is no similarity at all.

 

[Denny Crane]

How you make these leaps is baffling.

1. I don't own property or businesses in other countries.
2. I have no investments in other countries.
3. I do not participate in elections in other countries.
4. I do not have a 401k, or any other foreign stocks, bonds, or mutual funds.

So, you are wrong, as usual. There is no similarity at all.

Not one thing you own says, "made in China" on it?

:MARIS61:

61*

 

[jlprk]

When you renounce your citizenship, the FBI interviews and investigates you, to determine whether to classify you as a terrorist (which may shorten your life expectancy).

When you've had your fill of evil wars and you defect, your excuse at the FBI interview is...high taxes. Yeah, that'll get you classified as a harmless conservative. That's what to say, so that's what you say.

 

[MARIS61]

Not one thing you own says, "made in China" on it?

SILVER ALERT! SILVER ALERT!
DENNY CRANE, A MESSAGE BOARD POSTER SUFFERING ADVANCED DEMENTIA BROUGHT ON BY MAD COW DISEASE, IS MISSING.
HE WAS LAST SEEN WANDERING OFF-TOPIC IN THIS THREAD.
IF SEEN CONTACT THE LAW FIRM OF CRANE, POOLE, AND SCHMIDT.

 

[Eastoff]

Agreed. And they generally do. This sounds more like people living in other countries, making their money there, but forced to pay US income because they are US citizens. I have a "co-worker" in Germany that deals with this every year. He was born and raised here, but now lives in Germany, is married with a family and earns his living working for our parent company. Yet, he has to pay US income taxes. That seems a bit crazy.

Now, on the other side, our parent company, which also owns a winery here in the US (well, technically, the individual that owns the German winery owns an Oregon winery, not as I stated, a "parent company".)......... they do pay their fair share of income taxes on the income made here.

I can see why people would be giving up their citizenship if they're intending to stay overseas. The US taxes on income earned elsewhere quite likely make life much less affordable.

Does he vote in the US?

 

[crandc]

So why didn't this happen in the 1950s when the effective tax rate on top earners was around 90%?

I bet if someone renounced U.S. citizenship during the Bush presidency the people on this board who are now gloating would have called them traitors.

Someone does not know history. Record number of US citizenship renouncements? Really? Ever heard of the U.S. Civil War? A significant number of states left the Union and formed a new country, the population of that country renouncing their U.S. citizenship. Now THAT was serious, not some rich scofflaws crying because someone hurt their little fee-fees.

 

[Denny Crane]

So why didn't this happen in the 1950s when the effective tax rate on top earners was around 90%?

I bet if someone renounced U.S. citizenship during the Bush presidency the people on this board who are now gloating would have called them traitors.

Someone does not know history. Record number of US citizenship renouncements? Really? Ever heard of the U.S. Civil War? A significant number of states left the Union and formed a new country, the population of that country renouncing their U.S. citizenship. Now THAT was serious, not some rich scofflaws crying because someone hurt their little fee-fees.

Only a fool paid those top tax rates. There were all kinds of tax breaks and loopholes so anyone who could afford an accountant would pay $0.

History, indeed.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-02/1950s-tax-fantasy-is-a-republican-nightmare.html

Marc Linder, a law professor at the University of Iowa, has shown that a more comprehensive interpretation of income that includes capital gains suggests the real effective tax rate for millionaires was 49 percent in 1953. The effective rate dropped throughout the decade, reaching 31 percent by 1960. That 31 percent is just slightly higher than the 29 percent level a Congressional Budget Office report figures the average effective tax for the top quintile will be in 2014. And that number for 2014 doesn’t include taxes in Obama’s health-care law.

A second fantasy about the 1950s is that government soaked the rich. Joseph Thorndike and Martin Sullivan in Tax Notes magazine took a look at the tax distribution of the decade. They found that those earning more than $100,000 paid less than 5 percent of the taxes collected in the U.S., a far smaller share than the wealthiest shoulder today.

 

[crandc]

Denny, I'm sure the government never "soaked the rich", but fact is, taxes have never been lower than they are now. And there are not a record number of citizenship renouncements. My point holds.

 

[Denny Crane]

Denny, I'm sure the government never "soaked the rich", but fact is, taxes have never been lower than they are now. And there are not a record number of citizenship renouncements. My point holds.

The south was still the USA. They didn't renounce their citizenship. They were still citizens when the war is over.

Soaking the rich was Reagan's thing. Lower tax rates, eliminated the bottom 6M taxpayers from the rolls altogether, and bam - you have the rich paying more of a share of the taxes. He also eliminated the most commonly used tax loopholes so the rich actually paid the 28% tax.

Even NPR says it's a record number of citizenship renouncements.



A few times a year, the Treasury Department publishes a long list of names announcing all of the Americans who have lately abandoned their U.S. citizenship.

According to the legal website International Tax Blog, the number hovered around 500 a decade ago. Last year, it hit a record high of nearly 3,000.

This was not a gradual change. It was a sudden spike. It's a story of dominoes falling, one after another, leading to an unexpected outcome.

...

The United States is very unusual in this respect. Most countries in the world don't tax their citizens living abroad. So, for example, a Spaniard living in Canada won't pay Spanish taxes. Instead, he'll pay Canadian taxes. But the U.S. taxes American citizens wherever they are in the world.

"If I can compare it to romance, I say the U.S. is like Fatal Attraction," says Suzanne Reisman, a lawyer in London who advises Americans abroad. "Once they've got you, they never let you go. You have to renounce your citizenship, or you have to die."

So today, Americans who don't like the Fatal Attraction relationship are giving up their U.S. citizenship in record numbers.

In Switzerland, so many people want to renounce their citizenship that the U.S. Embassy actually has a waiting list.

 

[barfo]

Why should we care if some people living abroad are renouncing their citizenship? I'm not clear on the point of this thread.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Why should we care if some people living abroad are renouncing their citizenship? I'm not clear on the point of this thread.

barfo

If you work for a company that wants to put you to work in the london or paris office, you're fucked by the tax situation. You might not be working for the company forever, or they might want to station you back in the states down the road.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

"If I can compare it to romance, I say the U.S. is like Fatal Attraction," says Suzanne Reisman, a lawyer in London who advises Americans abroad. "Once they've got you, they never let you go. You have to renounce your citizenship, or you have to die."

Technically, it's an "and" not an "or", though I wouldn't put it past libertarians to think that not being taxed is tantamount to gaining eternal life.

 

[Denny Crane]

Technically, it's an "and" not an "or", though I wouldn't put it past libertarians to think that not being taxed is tantamount to gaining eternal life.

Technically, you're not right

It's "or."

 

[riverman]

I spent 18 years overseas working and it was tax free up to 72k in income annually. 20%tax from the local government for the first 6 months, then dropped to 6%. It was in Asia but I didn't experience these outrageous taxes there. I came back to Oregon and invested all the money I made overseas in Oregon. The opposite of outsourcing..where's my medal?

 

[barfo]

If you work for a company that wants to put you to work in the london or paris office, you're fucked by the tax situation. You might not be working for the company forever, or they might want to station you back in the states down the road.

A reasonable point. Of course you could simply negotiate a better package that would cover your extra tax expenses, or turn down the transfer/ find a different job. It isn't so different from being transferred to someplace where the cost of living is higher, or the people are unfriendly, or the weather is bad.

barfo

 

[riverman]

And on another note, rent just skyrocketed in the Cayman Islands along with the price of single malt scotch

 

[Denny Crane]

A reasonable point. Of course you could simply negotiate a better package that would cover your extra tax expenses, or turn down the transfer/ find a different job. It isn't so different from being transferred to someplace where the cost of living is higher, or the people are unfriendly, or the weather is bad.

barfo

London and Paris aren't cheap as it is. The government is encouraging this behavior through the tax code, and it's SNAFU as usual.

 

[barfo]

London and Paris aren't cheap as it is. The government is encouraging this behavior through the tax code, and it's SNAFU as usual.

At worst, it's making it a little harder for companies to transfer US employees overseas. Doesn't seem like a huge deal to me. If people overseas want to renounce their citizenship in order to save a little money on taxes, I say go for it.

Tax code probably is stupid in this regard, but hell, the tax code is stupid in a lot of much bigger more important ways.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

At worst, it's making it a little harder for companies to transfer US employees overseas. Doesn't seem like a huge deal to me. If people overseas want to renounce their citizenship in order to save a little money on taxes, I say go for it.

Tax code probably is stupid in this regard, but hell, the tax code is stupid in a lot of much bigger more important ways.

barfo

I gave you one example. Mook is being hurt by paying double taxes.

Tough to sell those government motors cars overseas if they have trouble finding sales guys to send overseas.