Reshaping the Knicks

[MoreCowBell]

Hiring Larry Brown does not guarantee the Knicks a championship. Will they be competitive?.yes. Whoever does not fit into the LB game plan will not play or be excised from the roster. This is for certain. History speaks for itself.

Hiring Larry Brown does not guarantee the Knicks will win. Will they win more then last year?.most likely. Winning is the bottom line. LB knows that. LB preaches that. LB coaches that. If you do not believe this or strive for this you will be gone or rooted on the bench.

Hiring Larry Brown does bring hope. Hope to a franchise in desperate need of resurrection. Hope to a management group that needs seats to be filled, merchandise to be sold and shareholder?s pockets to be filled. Hope to fans who bleed blue and orange. Hope to a franchise that is mired in the muck of selfish overplayed players.

Hope helps to assuage the negatives. Hope is a panacea?.at least temporarily.

As a loyal and dedicated fan of the NY Knicks I have mixed feelings about where my NY Knickerbockers stand at this point. I am elated about the recent hiring of LB. I am somewhat disappointed in our current roster. I think the Cablevision camp should be ashamed at the current outrageous ticket prices. All this aside, what intrigues me most at this point is the current roster and how it will change.

Surely, as many in the media and in this forum have concluded, the Knicks are not finished tinkering with their roster. I hope that Isiah is not done yet. Putting the current motley crew on the floor come October would be borderline negligent.

While I?m sure LB will make the most of what he has, a large part of the Knick?s success is contingent upon players buying into his system and mindset. This requires lazy minded players, like Whiny Tim, Egocentric Starbury, It?sAllAboutMe Q-rich, I want the ball Jamal and MyWay Hardarway to change their mental approach to the game. This is what coaching is about. Changing the approach and mindset of players and teaching them the right way to play the game. This will be a huge challenge for LB.

With this thread I am most interested in hearing from people about their thoughts on possible roster changes in the upcoming months leading up to veteran?s camp in September.

 How will Isiah re-shape the roster?
 What trades are realistically possible and why?
 Which players should we keep and why?
 Which players should we trade and why?


I look forward to reading anyone?s contributions in regards to these questions.
Thanks!

 

[Mr. J]

Regarding the Knicks? roster, I for one am satisfied with it. I know that this roster is not a championship one, but it is better than what was put out on the floor last year around this time. Although the Knicks only won 33 games last year, I think that stat is bloated by some problems only those who watch the Knicks will know about.

Well first of all, injuries did hurt us ? perhaps more than we thought. Allan Houston was supposed to be a big part of the team next year, but his knee is why we lost so many games. An interesting thing about the Knicks last year is they lost 30 games by 6 points or less. As our only clutch shooter, it was Houston?s duty to put away games, however as history has shown us, entrusting the ball in Marbury?s hand come crunch time isn?t exactly wise.

The chemistry for us wasn?t there, either. The frustration due to so much losing certainly is responsible for some of that. From Kurt Thomas to Marbury clashing, to Penny Hardaway sulking about minutes, to switching coaches and to the midseason trades. Things like this took away our focus on the court and caused us to lose.

Now let?s take a look at this roster: We have Stephon Marbury coming off a career year and being coached by the best coach in the game right now ? especially for point guards. Complimenting him on the perimeter can be Quentin Richardson who is a good shooter especially when taking the right kinds of shots. Marbury is much more effective with a good shooter on the wing. Probably on the bench is Jamal Crawford and Nate Robinson both who can provide good sparks off the bench. Nate is a tempo-changer who plays with so much energy and heart while Crawford is the guy who can create offense off the bench as a great 6th man.

In the frontcourt we have Tim Thomas who is a decent scorer and shot very well last season. He?s not a player Larry Brown likes, buy that?s okay ? he has a 14 million dollar expiring contract and teams will go berserk with that type of cap room for the following year. The same thing applies for Penny Hardaway with his 16 million dollar contract coming off the books next summer. Brown likes his game, and he?s serviceable so he might not go this year; we?ll just save 16 million dollars.

Now to encounter the glut, we have two solid veterans in Malik Rose and Jerome Williams who all play great defense. They provide a nice atmosphere in the locker room and are very experienced. They kind of remind me of David Lee. If any rookie can get minutes, he can because he does what Larry Brown likes and is a beast on the boards. Mo? Taylor?is Mo? Taylor. He?ll get you some points in the low post and create a threat similarly to Mike Sweetney; only Sweetney is harder working and a better rebounder.

The centers are good; we have James who seems to realize he can be a good player if he played harder and the rookie Channing Frye. He might not log as many minutes because he is a rookie and isn?t an ideal center Brown likes, but it?s still all good. Both of them are good shot-blockers and will help our defense.

All in all I like our roster and I think because of our expiring contracts and having Larry Brown, we can be a really good team in a year or two. I?m talking Heat, Pistons kind of good if he does teach them the right way to play. Also Herb is a young coach and will learn a lot from Larry Brown?s teaching and can take over the reins when Brown really will be held back due to medical reasons. Btw, welcome to JBB. I hope you enjoy it here!

 

[Sir Desmond]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">
The centers are good; we have James who seems to realize he can be a good player if he played harder</div>

Good lord, you're still sprouting this shyte about James suddenly being motivated. Hey, maybe we can re-sign Pot and hopefully he'll realise that if he plays like Shaq, we'll be a better team.

You're going to end up like the kid who thought for sure he was getting great toys for Christmas, got all optimistic and excited and in the end Santa took a poo in his stocking and left it at that.

 

[Mr. J]

I'm an optimistic guy. I never said he was going to be elite, I just think Jerome James will be decent and considering his only competition is Channing Frye, he should be okay.

 

[j0se]

What we're hoping for is James is for him to play like Nazr, hustle player, get us alot of rebounds, plus the blocks, but not score alot.

 

[Shapecity]

At the end of a disappointing season and watching Steve Nash win the MVP, Stephon Marbury opened up to the media and acknowledged he needs to approach the game the same way Nash does. He said he needs to get his assists up to 12 or 15 a game and not look for his shot as much. He also came to the realization at his age, his chance to win it all is quickly slipping away. Of course actions are stronger than words, but at least Marbury is finally admitting the way he's been playing is wrong.

Larry Brown has never turned down a challenge and he loves to teach players the game. He is the teacher you hate, but realize how great he was once he's gone, ask Allen Iverson. Now the million dollar question is, Marbury ready to be taught by the best in the business? His statements at the end of last year suggest he is, and Larry Brown will build the team around his skillset and feature him as the primary playmaker. Of course, Larry Brown already has insurance, Nate Robinson, if or when Marbury resorts to his selfish ways. Larry Brown is going to put Marbury in a position to be a scorer first, and a playmaker second. Similar to what he did with Allen Iverson and Rip Hamilton, I expect Larry Brown to slide Marbury over to SG.

A few things have to take place before Larry Brown can put the blueprint together. For starters, he needs to get a big, strong PG on the team similar to Eric Snow or Chauncey Billups. This guard will be responsible for running the offense and locking down defensively, plus protecting the basketball. Eric Snow is available, but Larry Brown has never been a re-tread coach, so don't expect Eric Snow to be acquired. There aren't any free agents left who fit this description, but an ideal canidate would be the newly acquired Antonio Daniels in Washington. The Knicks do have the frontline players the Wizards could use and despite Daniels recently signed, I could see the two working out a trade.

Another target could be Sam Cassell in Minnesota, he's strong, he's a savvy veteran with playoff experience, and he only has a 1 year deal left if things don't work out. However, I don't see anything the Knicks have, that the TWolves would want.

Finally, I can see Larry Brown trying to talk his good buddy, Greg Popovich into trading Beno Udrih over. With Tony Parker locked in, chances are Udrih will eventually leave via free agency. The Knicks would probably have to take Radsolav Nesterovic's contract as well, but Brown won't have a problem with that. Sending Mo Taylor would work under the cap rules. If gives the Spurs a scorer off the bench when Duncan goes out, and Mo Taylor's contract expires in a couple of years.

Out of those three scenarios I think the Wizards deal makes the most sense, but usually sensible deals never happen. I think the Spurs deal is a strong possibility because the teams have a trading history and it's the type of 'out the blue' trade that usually happens in the NBA.

This trade brings over Nesterovic and Udrih, and both probably become starters.

PG - Beno Udrih/Penny Hardaway
SG - Stephon Marbury/Nate Robinson/Jamal Crawford
SF - Quentin Richardson/Trevor Ariza/JYD
PF - ? / Channing Frye/Mike Sweetney/David Lee/Malik Rose
C - Radsolav Nesterovic/Jerome James/Jackie Butler

The deal gives the Knicks a pure PG and another 7 footer (which Larry Brown can never have enough of), and unloads one of the undersized PFs.

Three other players the Knicks will unload will be Penny Hardaway, Tim Thomas, and Jamal Crawford. The Knicks can afford to wait to trade Penny Hardaway closer to the trade deadline and he'll be useful as a two-way guard for the time being. Jamal Crawford will have to be moved, but the Knicks might not find any immediate takers for him. He will have to fight for the remaining minutes in the backcourt, off the bench.

Neither David Lee or Channing Frye is not ready to start at PF, and the rest are undersized players. Larry Brown will want a 6-11 or taller player at PF, who is a beast on the glass and defense. Tim Thomas will be the trade bait to acquire that type of player, otherwise Brown might be forced to start Jerome James at PF. Looking around the league team's who need cap space are Dallas, Portland, Philly, and Indiana. Neither Dallas or Philly have the player Larry Brown is looking for, and Indiana's lineup is set for next season, this leaves Portland, and Theo Ratliff as a match made in heaven. A trade of Tim Thomas for Theo Ratliff works under the cap rules. I know Knick fans were hoping to get a superstar or star player from an expiring contract, but Larry Brown doesn't need that type of player to win with. Also Ratliff's contract will end around the time Frye will be ready to start. Keep in mind Brown is very methodical and is constantly tinkering with his lineup. He's also not afraid to go for aging players, like he did with Mutombo in Philly and McDyess in Detroit. Now the lineup looks like this...

PG - Beno Udrih/Penny Hardaway
SG - Stephon Marbury/Nate Robinson/Jamal Crawford
SF - Quentin Richardson/Trevor Ariza/JYD
PF - Theo Ratliff / Channing Frye/Mike Sweetney/David Lee/Malik Rose
C - Radsolav Nesterovic/Jerome James/Jackie Butler

 

[MoreCowBell]

Hey guys, great additions to my thread. Interesting contributions and insightful commentary. While I do not share the same degree of optimism as some of you about this upcoming knick's roster I do hold out hope that some unexpected deals will happen before veteran's camp. I am a firm believer that a coach can make a difference. LB will bring out the best in each player on the Knick roster. The turnaround will be a gradual one.

 

[j0se]

Theo Ratcliff and Rasho Nestrovic was our front court...lol

Beno is a good kid, but Marbury is more a Pure PG than him, Beno would be a 3rd string player in New York...I see you're trying to make the Knicks an ugly team, its not going to happend bro...lol.....wow you wrote all that, it was well written, but thats a terrible plan for the Knicks

Ratcliff has 2 years also, its not like he's an expiring contract..I don't want to keep a washed up player over 30 whos making almost twice as much as Crawford...thats a ridiculous idea

Rasho has 3 years on his contract..........lol is this some kind of sick joke?

 

[Shapecity]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder j0se. This team is ugly if you like uptempo basketball, dunking, 3pointers, and a lot of points, however, Larry Brown has never coached that type of team and he isn't about to change now. He likes putting strong defensive teams, who share the ball on offense, and play halfcourt basketball on offense. To him that is beautiful, and I like the old school approach instead of flashy basketball. I enjoyed the Pistons and Spurs series, even though most fans considered it boring.

If you look at other Larry Brown lineups like he had in Philly and Detroit, there is little flash on those teams. A frontline of George Lynch, Tyrone Hill and Dikembe Mutombo and Prince, Sheed, Big Ben respectively. He likes having hungry veterans shore up his frontline. He loves being in the underdog role and taking disgruntled players and helping them reach their potential.

It's hard to complain about getting a legit 7 footer and future PG, for just Mo Taylor. Rasho's salary is about right for him, he's overpaid, but most big men in the league are, because they are a commodity. Rasho gives the Knicks a player who can score in the post with either hand. He's decent defensively and can bang against the bigger centers in the East like Shaq, Haywood, Ilgauskas, etc. Maybe Jerome James beats him out for the starting spot and you have James and Ratliff on the frontline. I still like Rasho starting, because he comes from San Antonio so he knows how to be a role player and he listens. What else I like about Rasho is his ability to knock down the 15 foot jumpshot consistently. It's important, because Q-Rich will get a chance to play his real style of offense, which is posting up, and not chucking 3pointers. You need a Center who can get out of the middle and draw his man out, Rasho can do that.

Last year with the Spurs Rasho averaged 6PPG/6.5RPG/1.7BPG in 25.5MPG
Last year with the Sonics James averaged 5PPG/3RPG/1.4BPG in 16.5MPG
Combined that's 11PPG/9.5RPG/3.1BPG from your center position, which is solid production from that spot. Plus both guys are 7 footers with junk in the trunk.

Ratliff might be old, but the Knicks need a veteran player in there for the time being, until Frye is ready to be the everyday starter at PF. Ratliff has at least 2 years, and by the time Ratliff is ready to hang it up Frye will be ready to be the starter. In the meantime, Frye gets to learn from one of the best shotblockers in the NBA, and with a similar body type, Frye can see how Ratliff uses angles and leverage to compensate for his lack of bulk.

The addition of Udrih, Ratliff, and Nesterovic all have championship experience and know what it takes to win a title. This is key for a young team like the Knicks, who need an attitude adjustment and guys in the locker room showing them the right way to handle yourself on and off the court.

Stephon Marbury is more of a pure PG than Udrih, you cannot be serious? Udrih is as pure as they get when it comes to PG, Marbury is more of a slasher and scorer. Marbury will excel at SG under Larry Brown. Another reason why Rasho is important, is so the Knicks can run screens for Marbury to free him up for easy looks, just like the Pistons did with Rip Hamilton, and just like the 76ers did with Allen Iverson. Instead of Marbury trying to break his man off the dribble, he'll have his teammates clearing out his defender and creating higher percentage shots for Marbury.

This team is good enough to make the playoffs and in a couple of years, with two years of experience and more development and the vets close to retiring look at the Knicks lineup. Udrih, N. Robinson, Ariza, Frye, QRich, Lee all start taking over in the starting rotation and will be polished players under 2 years of Larry Brown's schooling.

 

[j0se]

I understand...you hate the Knicks, you mad valid points on why we should suck forever, and hurt our cap

This depresses me.

 

[Shapecity]

j0se let's see you come up with some scenarios, you have a lot of strong opinions for other's, but why not try coming up with your own ideas? Your fans are waiting.

 

[j0se]

I already did...http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40649


1.

<font color="Red">Portland</font>
Nick Van Exel
Sebastian Telfair


<font color="Blue">Knicks</font>
Stephon Marbury
2006 1st round pick

<font color="Red">Portland's lineup</font>
Marbury/Jack
Anderson/Webster
Miles/Patterson/Outlaw
Randolph/Ratliff
Przybilla/Ha

2. <font color="Blue">Orlando </font>
Doug Christie
Kelvin Cato


for
<font color="DarkOrange">Knicks</font>
Mike Sweetney
Jamal Crawford
Malik Rose



<font color="Blue">Orlando's lineup </font>
Nelson/Diener/Dooling
Francis/Crawford
Hill/Turkoglu
Sweetney/Vazquez/Rose
Howard/Kasun


3. <font color="Red">Chicago</font>
Eric Piatkowski
Antonio Davis
Andres Nocioni

for

<font color="Blue">Knicks</font>
Quentin Richardson
Jerome Williams
Maurice Taylor

<font color="Red">Chicago's lineup</font>

Hinrich/Duhon
Richardson/Gordon
Deng/Williams
Chandler/Taylor
Curry/Chandler





<font color="Blue">Knicks's final lineup</font>


Sebastian Telfair/Nate Robinson/Penny Hardaway
Doug Christie/Nick Van Exel/Allan Houston
Andres Nocioni/Trevor Ariza/Tim Thomas/Eric Piatkowski
Channing Fyre/Antonio Davis/David Lee
Kelvin Cato/Jerome James

Allan Houston ? $19,125,000
Anfernee Hardaway ? $15,750,000
Tim Thomas ? $13,975,000
Antonio Davis ? $13,900,000
Nick Van Exel ? $12,731,125
Kelvin Cato ? $8,640,000
Doug Christie ? $8,200,000
Eric Piatowski ? $2,950,200
Andres Nocioni ? $2,777,500
Channing Fyre - $2,250,000
Sebastian Telfair ? $1,676,280
Nate Robinson - $1,250,000
David Lee - 400,000
Trevor Ariza - $400,000

These are accurate salaries mostly...not really sure about rooks salaries

Total Salary: 104,025,105
The Cap: 50,000,000
Over Cap: 54,025,105


Knicks get more bigger, and physical, we trade alot of expiring contracts in 06 (Tim Thomas, Penny Hardaway, Antonio Davis, Doug Christie, Kelvin Cato, Eric Piatkowski) This would be a miracle to our cap issue. Also Houston contract expires in 07, by 07, we'll still have our young core, all developed, and and have mega cap room possiblly signing a guy like Yao or Lebron.

But if you look at this team, think DEFENSE, this team will be competitive, cause of the combination of experience and young hungry players, who make plays (Ariza, Lee, Robinson, Telfair, etc) Our frontcourt becomes huge with a combination of shot blocking 6"10 big men, Cato and Fyre, with defensive veterans like Jerome James and Antonio Davis off the bench for us. You may ask..."Where the hell is the offense?" Well, look at our bench, Nick Van Exel, Nate Robinson, David Lee, Tim Thomas, Trevor Ariza, Allan Houston ........the bench is so deep.

My main goal is to make Knicks an enjoyable tough team, while rebuilding at the same time, all these veterans who will expire will teach our young core of Lee, Robinson, Telfair, Ariza, Fyre some defense, which all of these guys are capable of becoming very good defenders in the league.


This plan is perfect, perimeter defenders (Nicioni, Christie, Ariza) Two very young PG's who will be our future (Telfair, Robinson) Strong veterans in the frontcourt (Cato, Davis, James) with our young front court guys very skilled and talented (Fyre and Lee) along with veteran leadership off the bench who can provide alot of offense if needed (Houston, Van Exel, Hardaway, Thomas, Piatkowski)


by 06.....

Allan Houston ? $19,125,000
Andres Nocioni ? $2,777,500
Channing Fyre - $2,250,000
Sebastian Telfair ? $1,676,280
Nate Robinson - $1,250,000
David Lee - 400,000
Trevor Ariza - $400,000


Total Salary: 27,878,780
The Cap: 50,000,000
Under Cap: 22,121,220


Free Agents in 06

Yao Ming
Drew Gooden
Tayshaun Prince
Predrag Stojakovic
Nene
and others

in 07....Houston contract is off the salary...lol 19,125,000 thats as much as what we would be under the cap



Free agents in 07
Mike Bibby
Antwan Jamison
Mickael Pietrus
Jerry Stackhouse
Jamaal Magloire
Jalen Rose
Mickael Pietrus
Anderson Varejao
Dirk Nowitzki
Darko Milicic
LeBron James
Rashard Lewis
Chris Bosh
Kendrick Perkins
Kirk Hinrich
Josh Howard
Peter John Ramos
Vince Carter
Marcus Banks
Maciej Lampe
Chris Mihm
Primoz Brezec
Carmelo Anthony

You see, with your plan, Knicks their good talent for players with lesser talent, basically scrubs, for ugly contracts, WHICH doesn't help the cap issue Knicks are facing, and I don't think you realize right now. <u> Knicks have a serious cap issue we're facing, that many Knick fans try to ignore...lol like Puerto Ricans trying to ignore all the negative things in life, WE MUST FACE THIS CAP PROBLEM SOONER OR LATER, I RATHER START FROM A CLEAN SLATE NOW THAN SUFFER FOR LONGER</u>


man...with my plans we'd have Lebron and Yao on the Knicks

Telfair/Robinson
Lebron/Draft pick
Ariza/Nicioni
Fyre/Lee
Yao/James


lol...wow...I give myself alot of hope


But in reality, Isiah doesnt care about the future, his propoganda is "We're younger and more athletic" Isiah is afraid to face the cap problem, and when he leaves New York, or gets fired, I gurantee you, I PROMISE you, Isiah will be the most hated man iN NYC for not fixing the Knicks cap problem when he had a chance to.

 

[Mr. J]

I like the scenarios; when you think about it, some they all turn out well. I like Theo Ratliff's game, but I think considering we're giving them a 14 million expiring contract, we should get more. Maybe New Jersey's first rounder? I actually like the Mo' Taylor trade; Rasho is solid and can step out and hit the midrange jumper just like Kurt Thomas. Beno is solid and can shoot very well which will compliment Marbury's penetration. It should be interestnig to see what happens, though. I'm definitely interested in seeing what Brown can do to the roster.

 

[Skiptomylue11]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">I understand...you hate the Knicks, you mad valid points on why we should suck forever, and hurt our cap

This depresses me.</div>
Jose, he stated the team was good enough to make playoffs, that doesn't seem like a comment that implies that the Knicks will suck forever. The playoffs are not to be taken granted, and should be appreciated any year, and any seed that they are acheived.

You shouldn't be depressed, with Larry Brown and the improved Knicks roster, they are considerably better than last year.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">This team is good enough to make the playoffs and in a couple of years, with two years of experience and more development and the vets close to retiring look at the Knicks lineup. Udrih, N. Robinson, Ariza, Frye, QRich, Lee all start taking over in the starting rotation and will be polished players under 2 years of Larry Brown's schooling.</div>

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post"> Larry Brown is going to put Marbury in a position to be a scorer first, and a playmaker second. Similar to what he did with Allen Iverson and Rip Hamilton, I expect Larry Brown to slide Marbury over to SG.</div>
Shape you had an excellent commentary, I think that it would be interesting to put Marbury at 2. However it would create a slight jam with Marbury and Crawford there, but I have a feeling it could be an excellent move.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Another target could be Sam Cassell in Minnesota, he's strong, he's a savvy veteran with playoff experience, and he only has a 1 year deal left if things don't work out. However, I don't see anything the Knicks have, that the TWolves would want.</div>
Wolves want to dump Cassell, and he could be a good starting pg for the knicks. However it depends if NY makes Cassell happy and gives him a large extension and Cassell doesn't whine about money.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Finally, I can see Larry Brown trying to talk his good buddy, Greg Popovich into trading Beno Udrih over. With Tony Parker locked in, chances are Udrih will eventually leave via free agency. The Knicks would probably have to take Radsolav Nesterovic's contract as well, but Brown won't have a problem with that. Sending Mo Taylor would work under the cap rules. If gives the Spurs a scorer off the bench when Duncan goes out, and Mo Taylor's contract expires in a couple of years.</div>
Do you really think that the Spurs would want to trade away Beno and Rasho for Mo Taylor(who isn't an incredibly smart player and Pop probably wouldn't want on his disciplined team). Also, the spurs also signed Horry to a 3 year contract, so I think that if Duncan can play 30-35 min a game, then Horry can play 13-18 minutes a game. I think the trade would be excellent for NY, but I can't see SA doing it.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post"> otherwise Brown might be forced to start Jerome James at PF.
PF - Theo Ratliff / Channing Frye/Mike Sweetney/David Lee/Malik Rose</div>
I think Ratliff should start at center if he came to the Knicks. I think that Jerome James at 7-1 and 272 pounds and somewhat out of shape is capable at center, but way too slow and will tire out at PF. Not to mention he currently gets into a lot of foul trouble at C, he wouldn't be able to keep up with PFs and get into foul trouble quickly.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post"> this leaves Portland, and Theo Ratliff as a match made in heaven. A trade of Tim Thomas for Theo Ratliff works under the cap rules. I know Knick fans were hoping to get a superstar or star player from an expiring contract, but Larry Brown doesn't need that type of player to win with. Also Ratliff's contract will end around the time Frye will be ready to start. Keep in mind Brown is very methodical and is constantly tinkering with his lineup. He's also not afraid to go for aging players, like he did with Mutombo in Philly and McDyess in Detroit. Now the lineup looks like this...</div>
Wow, what an excellent idea, because Ratliff may have a large contract, but that is no worry for NY and Larry Brown's excellent use of defensive centers. It would be a great acquisition.

 

[Shapecity]

j0se you are better off as an arm-chair QB.

I'm glad you wrote that last part, because those trades were completely lopsided.

SkiptoMyLue11 - I don't know if the Spurs would make that trade, but after watching Greg Popovich and his staff convince Glenn Robinson to play defense and take charges, Mo Taylor should be a piece of cake to teach defense to.

The Spurs have fallen out of favor with Nesterovic, he just hasn't worked out the way the team wanted, which is why they traded for Nazr last year. They unloaded Malik Rose, who the team also fell out of favor with. The Spurs took Nazr with 2 years left on his deal to unload Rose who had a similar contract, but for lengthier term. So the situation would be similar, except the Spurs have to give up Beno Udrih. I know Popovich is high on Udrih, but Parker is the long term answer at PG, and Udrih likely won't stick around after his rookie contract is up. The Spurs can rent Mo Taylor for a season and then have $9Million expiring contract to dangle, plus save another $7.8M from Rasho's salary in 2007/08 and $8.4M saved in 2008/09. Freeing up $16M for 2007 and only giving up Udrih for it is obviously tempting.

The Spurs did re-sign Robert Horry, but a 3 year deal was more of a token of appreciation for his post-season heroics. Having Mo Taylor on the roster gives the Spurs the luxury of saving Horry for the post-season, and resting Duncan a little more. Once Duncan comes out of the game, the Spurs don't really have a post up scorer, and Mo Taylor is capable of providing points in the paint. The Spurs can also use Mo Taylor as a whipping boy in practice for Fabricio Oberto this year, and Luis Scola next year.

Moving Marbury to SG would not create a logjam, because Jamal Crawford will also be traded as soon as the Knicks can find a taker for him. I couldn't think of any realistic trade scenarios at this point, and Larry Brown would probably like to evaluate Crawford's ability to learn and develop under him before he pulls the trigger. If Jamal Crawford can buy into Brown's system, then he could be the combo guard Larry Brown likes on his team. He could play a role similar to what Aaron McKie played in Philly, logging minutes at the PG, SG and SF.

I thought about starting Ratliff at Center also, but then you have a problem again at which player starts at PF for the Knicks. Channing Frye is not ready, Jerome James is too, slow as you mentioned, and Larry Brown will cringe having to start an undersized PF.

 

[j0se]

shape...honestly, you're a good poster, but just stop talking about the Knicks, you're clowning yourself, a Rasho/Ratcliff front court has to be the most un productive idiotic idea i've seen

My trades help the CAP, your trades doesnt do ANYTHING i mean...lol what the hell is the point? these guys are NBA scrubs now, back ups, getting paid starter money for a LONG PERIOD OF TIME

I get scrubs who have expiring contracts, so I can open my cap space to sign guys like Lebron or Yao..........just stop this


Udirth isn't a better passer than Marbury, its idiotic for you to think he will take Marbury's spot

 

[Squishface]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">shape...honestly, you're a good poster, but just stop talking about the Knicks, you're clowning yourself, a Rasho/Ratcliff front court has to be the most un productive idiotic idea i've seen

My trades help the CAP, your trades doesnt do ANYTHING i mean...lol what the hell is the point? these guys are NBA scrubs now, back ups, getting paid starter money for a LONG PERIOD OF TIME

I get scrubs who have expiring contracts, so I can open my cap space to sign guys like Lebron or Yao..........just stop this


Udirth isn't a better passer than Marbury, its idiotic for you to think he will take Marbury's spot</div>

That armchair QB tag fits like a glove. What you're not realizing j0se, is that those trades don't work in reality. They would help the cap, sure, but you have to make a team bite first, which involves concessions. The NBA has been a seller's market for years now. Teams just won't pull the trigger unless they have the right motivation, and sometimes that motivation is a concession a GM didn't have in mind. A pick here, a JYD there, and all of a sudden, your plans are scrapped. Udrih is a better passer, Starbury is really a 2, not a 1, and since Crawford was signed knowing that he would be coming off the bench with Houston in the starter's role, I doubt we'd see too much of a logjam. While we're on the topic of Crawford, it might seem a little silly to think he could log minutes as McKie's likeness. McKie hustled on every play and played intense defense for that squad, that's what earned him those minutes all over the floor, Crawford's touch and go defense and lackadaisical approach to ball control, nevermind hustle itself, would probably land him on the bench for a while, but hey, who knows with LB in town?

As for a Rasho/Ratliff frontcourt, what's wrong with that? Playing in the east, and getting himself two talented defensive front court players is a darn good thing for a Larry Brown led team. One has to think that Ratliff would get along quite well in Brown's system (I'm looking in Big Ben's direction), and Rasho could certainly add a dimension to the front court that management hadn't thought of, a little shooting touch. James, however, has been invested in, and probably will be around for a little while, I'm sorry to say. I guess that leaves a James/Ratliff combo, which seems like a pretty sorry replacement. A dearth of big talent in New York probably has LB itching to include some bigger talent on his team, and probably not in the form of Jerome James. Just like it was stated earlier by shape, LB will be loathe to start an undersized 4, but without Ratliff, he will have to, oh well.

j0se, going on the offensive is probably not your best bet here, a little dose of reality in those deals is a good start, then give us a gameplan. That means a plan within games, against examples of teams. As for freeing up space to sign a guy like Yao or LeBron, some reality would be good there too. There's always a possibility that the Knicks would be in the hunt for those guys, but cap problems don't just go away, often times teams make trades for players while the trading team agrees to pay part of a salary as a kicker, which the Knicks would most certainly have to do to get rolling. Completion of a salary cap solution for the Knicks is at least 4 years off. That doesn't mean they can't do some winning in the meantime though. But being in the hunt when LeBron's or Yao's deals are up is a little too optimistic, and I'm an optimistic guy. Not to mention, LeBron is going to want a LOOOONG deal, and the only team that will be able to do that with any success is Cleveland, and they will have built a team around that man in two years time as it is, so obviously getting rid of him is a slim to none chance.

 

[j0se]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Ignignot:</div><div class="quote_post">That armchair QB tag fits like a glove. What you're not realizing j0se, is that those trades don't work in reality. They would help the cap, sure, but you have to make a team bite first, which involves concessions. The na has been a seller's market for years now. Teams just won't pull the trigger unless they have the right motivation, and sometimes that motivation is a concession a GM didn't have in mind. A pick here, a JYD there, and all of a sudden, your plans are scrapped. Udrih is a better passer, Starbury is really a 2, not a 1, and since Crawford was signed knowing that he would be coming off the bench with Houston in the starter's role, I doubt we'd see too much of a logjam. While we're on the topic of Crawford, it might seem a little silly to think he could log minutes as McKie's likeness. McKie hustled on every play and played intense defense for that squad, that's what earned him those minutes all over the floor, Crawford's touch and go defense and lackadaisical approach to ball control, nevermind hustle itself, would probably land him on the bench for a while, but hey, who knows with LB in town?

As for a Rasho/Ratliff frontcourt, what's wrong with that? Playing in the east, and getting himself two talented defensive front court players is a darn good thing for a Larry Brown led team. One has to think that Ratliff would get along quite well in Brown's system (I'm looking in Big Ben's direction), and Rasho could certainly add a dimension to the front court that management hadn't thought of, a little shooting touch. James, however, has been invested in, and probably will be around for a little while, I'm sorry to say. I guess that leaves a James/Ratliff combo, which seems like a pretty sorry replacement. A dearth of big talent in New York probably has LB itching to include some bigger talent on his team, and probably not in the form of Jerome James. Just like it was stated earlier by shape, LB will be loathe to start an undersized 4, but without Ratliff, he will have to, oh well.

j0se, going on the offensive is probably not your best bet here, a little dose of reality in those deals is a good start, then give us a gameplan. That means a plan within games, against examples of teams. As for freeing up space to sign a guy like Yao or LeBron, some reality would be good there too. There's always a possibility that the Knicks would be in the hunt for those guys, but cap problems don't just go away, often times teams make trades for players while the trading team agrees to pay part of a salary as a kicker, which the Knicks would most certainly have to do to get rolling. Completion of a salary cap solution for the Knicks is at least 4 years off. That doesn't mean they can't do some winning in the meantime though. But being in the hunt when LeBron's or Yao's deals are up is a little too optimistic, and I'm an optimistic guy. Not to mention, LeBron is going to want a LOOOONG deal, and the only team that will be able to do that with any success is Cleveland, and they will have built a team around that man in two years time as it is, so obviously getting rid of him is a slim to none chance.</div>

I'm sorry, but you're an idiot if you think Marbury is a 2, when he's 4th in the nba in assist per game, number 2 in total assist and number 5 in assist per 48 minutes

What possibility? What interest does Isiah have in Nasho? lol Lebron is going to want a long deal....we'll have enough cap space if we go by my plan, did you even read my post? Why would Lebron want to stay in Clevand? Its a shitty city, you can't possibly pick New York over Clevand, especially when you go by my plan with all the cap space we will have.


Listen, Nasho ISN'T Big Ben, he's a bench player, we're not trading for his contract, he has 3 years and makes alot of cash.....no thanks we have enouogh ugly contracts.

Ratcliff is over 30, and makes as much money as TT, he's servicable, but his contract is a no no, especially with the problems we have with the cap.....lol why would we want Ratcliff? We signed Jerome James...and how can you oppose my plan when we get a player as good as Ratcliff, but who has an expiring contract, and will help the cap issue, and be servicable at the same time.

Beno is a decent player at best, he's a subpar back up who can shoot the ball, he's a combo guard, he's not a pass first guy, he's just a role player on a good team


Marbury averaged over 8 assist, while Beno couldnt even average 2 assist a game........you didnt make any valid points, because these trade ideas you guys are coming up with doesn't help us in anyway, it won't improve our defense, realize something, since you don't follow the Knicks or have any idea what our problesm are


We need perimeter defenders, not slow overpaid big men...

christ....Nasho lost his starting role to Nazr, who Isiah wanted out of here, what the hell makes you think Isiah wants an inferior C to Nazr? especially with how ugly Nasho's contract is.


Why does it matter if it works in reality or not? its my plan, and the best plan to rebuild fast, get under the cap, keep our young guys, and open cap room to sign superstars like Lebron and Yao...its how I feel the way to go, cause you don't understand Knicks are going to have this cap problem sooner or later

 

[Squishface]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">you don't understand Knicks are going to have this cap problem sooner or later</div>

They already have the cap problem, so let's get with the program. And beside that, if you don't think us 'other fans' don't have any idea what problems the Knicks have, you're fooling yourself. What makes your opinion any better than anyone else's? Your trades are an opinion, my opinion of them is that they would never work. And I belive you were proposing trades as a way to help out the cap issue, well if they don't work in reality, then why would you even bother with them in here? You said yourself that they wouldn't work, so why are you wasting our time? I think we need to stop being quite so narrow-minded and open up to the idea that the Knicks are not reputable buyers in the NBA market. GM's are going to make Isiah bend over backwards to get the deals he wants, and even then, he might have to swallow some cash in deals. He will be tested again and again by other GM's this season, because his picture is starting to come together. They had a great draft and have some names to build on, that doesn't mean they are where they want to be, but at the very least they are pointing in the right direction. It's time you did a little listening pal, and realize there are more people on this forum than just yourself.

And what perimeter defense does your plan allow for? An aging (read: aged) Doug Christie and Andres Nocioni, who I'm not even sure would start over Trevor Ariza. Aside from that, guess what? You have overpaid big men! Cato, James, and Antonio Davis (who isn't even that much better than JYD at this point, and earns more money, while not providing the same enthusiasm.) It also provides a question mark at the 1 (Telfair), and the slimmest, most overpaid bench in the league. Get your head on straight and let's some real deals.

You want to pay backups some real money, you might as well pick up Rasho and Ratliff (not Ratcliff, which really makes me wonder about your argument, you don't even know the guy's name!). And Rasho may not be Big Ben, but Ratliff was Big Ben before Big Ben was Big Ben, and that's what I was referring to, so let's try that one again.

 

[Shapecity]

j0se do you read posts? He said Ratliff is a Ben Wallace type, not Rasho. No one is claiming Ratliff is equal to Big Ben, but he brings a similar skillset to the Knicks.

Let's also realize it's no longer what Isiah Thomas wants, it's what LB wants, and his style is complete contrast the to the type of team Isiah was trying to build.

Marbury is a good creator off the dribble, which leads to most of his passes. However, Beno is a better passer within a system. Beno knows how to swing the ball around, control tempo, and make accurate passes to players running off of screens. It has nothing to do with the amount of assists Beno gets, it's what he does in the offense leading up to the basket. Whether he's the guy making the final pass, or he is the guy setting up the angle for another player to get the assist, he's initializing the offense.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Why does it matter if it works in reality or not?</div>
If you feel that way, then what's the point of having a plan when the original poster specifically asked ... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What trades are realistically possible and why?
</div>

I don't understand why you keep harping on Ratliff being slow either, being 30 does not make him slow. He's more than quick enough to keep up with any PF in the league. He's also very long and has a ridiculous wingspan to make up any mistakes he makes. His salary expires in 2007/08, which is the same time Malik Rose and JYD also expire, so being a player in the 2008/09 market is far more realistic than trying to shed cap for 2007. Let's face it, teams are not lining up to take Marbury's contract, and if the Knicks trade him, you better believe they are going to have to take a bad contract in return.

Lebron James coming to NY is no longer realistic either. The Cavs have built a nice team around him this summer, and the new CBA makes it harder for teams to steal superstars away from their teams, once their rookie contract expires. Cleveland might be a bad city compared to NY, but Lebron has enough money to live in NY and still play in Cleveland. If Larry Brown wanted to coach Lebron then he would have signed the deal the Cavs offered him and not he Knicks deal. And once again, Larry Brown does not need a superstar loaded roster to win a title.

 

[j0se]

lol....at 09...do you realize how long that is going to take? by then most of our players will be washed up and untradeable...you plan has zero logic, you just want the Knicks to remain a bad - medicore team with a life lasting cap problem.

I better believe Knicks will trade Marbury for a bad contract? Do you realize how you sound right now?

 

[VinKanaddy]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">lol....at 09...do you realize how long that is going to take? by then most of our players will be washed up and untradeable...you plan has zero logic, you just want the Knicks to remain a bad - medicore team with a life lasting cap problem.</div>

After reading all of your posts in this thread and some of the other threads, I've come to one conclusion - you're suffering from an inferiority complex complicated with a very egotistical mind. It is your plan that has zero logic, not shapecity's. You start out talking about how the trades you proposed would help out with the Knicks' salary cap situation, but you include names like Antonio Davis - which completely baffles me, let alone make sense in any particular way - and give up your future by trading away the 2006 First Round Pick, Michael Sweetney and Quentin Richardson.

You have to understand that Larry Brown wants a vastly different team than the one Isiah Thomas had in mind, and he is going to demand some moves to be made that fits his vision. The Knicks are in a deep, dark hole as far as the salary cap is concerned, and in my opinion you will do yourselves a favour by just letting those contracts expire, rather than taking more contracts in return. That is if Isiah has any plans to go under the cap, which all the signs so far are pointing otherwise. You aren't getting any major relief until at least the 2008-2009 season, and it is safe to assume that it will be next to impossible to pry LeBron and Yao off their respective teams in Cleveland and Houston.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">I better believe Knicks will trade Marbury for a bad contract? Do you realize how you sound right now?</div>

Well, what else do you think you would get for a bad contract? Let's not for a moment forget that Marbury's contract is one of the worst ones to move. Considering that not every team in the NBA have the money to throw out like the Knicks or the Mavericks, I don't see how anyone in their right state of mind would take on Marbury's contract without getting rid of a bad contract or two of their own.

 

[Shapecity]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">lol....at 09...do you realize how long that is going to take? by then most of our players will be washed up and untradeable...you plan has zero logic, you just want the Knicks to remain a bad - medicore team with a life lasting cap problem.

I better believe Knicks will trade Marbury for a bad contract? Do you realize how you sound right now?</div>
Again, you misread, I said 2008 not 2009. Go back and read the entire post, there's a very LOGICAL explanation to it as well.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I better believe Knicks will trade Marbury for a bad contract? Do you realize how you sound right now?</div>

Absolutely, the Knicks will have to eat 1 or 2 bad trades to unload Stephon Marbury, after all he's making close to $20Million a year. Do you remember what Phoenix had to absorb to unload him? It's going to be even worse for the Knicks. Teams are not lining up to trade for Stephon Marbury, everywhere he has gone he's lost, everywhere he has left those teams have gone on to win. You think a team is going to give you equal value for Stephon Marbury, you are kidding yourself, this is not NBA Live or a Sim League, my friend.

Your suggestion was Telfair & NVE for Marbury. Why on earth would the Blazers do this deal? They are trying to trim payroll, and giving up their future PG for Marbury plus an expiring contract they can use to fill a position they actually need makes no sense whatsoever. The Blazers future is set with a lot of young talented players, they are not going to throw that all away on Marbury.

Then you have to ask yourself why the Knicks and specifically LB would want Telfair as his starting PG. LB likes a big point guard, Telfair is small, LB likes experienced PGs, Telfair is going to be in year two, LB likes a PG who plays defense, Telfair is a terrible defensive player. Telfair does not fit the description or style of LB.

Why would I take the time to think this out and explain my trades if I just wanted to make the Knicks stay bad and continue to be in salary cap hell?

Why don't you make an effort to come up with REALISTIC trades, like the original poster asked for, and then you can start chastising us NON-Knick fans.

If you have read this far, please do not respond with, "I know this is not NBA Live or a Sim League, you just hate the Knicks." "Rasho and Ratcliff (as you like to call him) are too, slow and make too, much money." Instead offer us a REALISTIC game plan, based on Larry Brown's style, not j0se's preferences.

 

[P.A.P.]

My best attempt at a Sir Desmond impersonation

 

[Sir Desmond]

 

[j0se]

You're explanations are not logical.

shape...since you're trying to be realstic, where are your sorces that Knicks have to trade Marbury, a top 5 PG, and top 20 NBA player for bad contracts?

Do I remember what Phoneix did? lol are you an idiot? Phoneix GOT a whole buch of <u>EXPIRING contracts</u>, and draft picks, and young players, to open up cap space to sign guys like Quiten Richardson and Steven Nash...after that they won 60 games, that what happends when you clear up cap space....lmao, you don't trade your best player for a BAD CONTRACT

, when you trade your best guy, it basically means you want to start from <u>a clean slate</u>, not damn continue this process of overpaid long contracts...this is what you don't understand, or you don't care about...lol you don't even follow the Knicks, what can you really say?

Blazers get a first rounder, and elite PG, they already got alot of young guys on their squad, they need veteran all star to mature these kids. NVE is a bench player, and Telfair is a sophmore, all what away? Blazers benefit this trade, Knicks do this trade cause they need to rebuild right away.


Why would Larry Brown want Rasho...he's a non atheletic 7 foot guy who fouls alot, has a limited offensive game with an inconsistant jumpshot, can't hit free throws, and lost his starting job to Nazr Mohhamed...who was traded for Malik Rose...lmao, where do you get your sorces from? if Nasho does land here, we better get alot of draft picks.

 

[Shapecity]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">You're explanations are not logical.

shape...since you're trying to be realstic, where are your sorces that Knicks have to trade Marbury, a top 5 PG, and top 20 NBA player for bad contracts?

Do I remember what Phoneix did? lol are you an idiot? Phoneix GOT a whole buch of <u>EXPIRING contracts</u>, and draft picks, and young players, to open up cap space to sign guys like Quiten Richardson and Steven Nash...after that they won 60 games, that what happends when you clear up cap space....lmao, you don't trade your best player for a BAD CONTRACT

, when you trade your best guy, it basically means you want to start from <u>a clean slate</u>, not damn continue this process of overpaid long contracts...this is what you don't understand, or you don't care about...lol you don't even follow the Knicks, what can you really say?

Blazers get a first rounder, and elite PG, they already got alot of young guys on their squad, they need veteran all star to mature these kids. NVE is a bench player, and Telfair is a sophmore, all what away? Blazers benefit this trade, Knicks do this trade cause they need to rebuild right away.

Why would Larry Brown want Rasho...he's a non atheletic 7 foot guy who fouls alot, has a limited offensive game with an inconsistant jumpshot, can't hit free throws, and lost his starting job to Nazr Mohhamed...who was traded for Malik Rose...lmao, where do you get your sorces from? if Nasho does land here, we better get alot of draft picks.</div>
Am I an idiot? Nope

The Suns took 3 terrible contracts Eisley, Ward, and McDyess to unload Marbury and Penny. At the time Marbury was the Suns superstar and best player, yet when they traded him they didn't get a superstar back. So your logic is flawed, so let me ask you ... "Are you an idiot?"

Let me answer for you since you didn't read my last post.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you have read this far, please do not respond with, "I know this is not NBA Live or a Sim League, you just hate the Knicks." "Rasho and Ratcliff (as you like to call him) are too, slow and make too, much money." Instead offer us a REALISTIC game plan, based on Larry Brown's style, not j0se's preferences.</div>

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">shape...honestly, you're a good poster, but just stop talking about the Knicks, you're clowning yourself, a Rasho/Ratcliff front court has to be the most un productive idiotic idea i've seen

My trades help the CAP, your trades doesnt do ANYTHING i mean...lol what the hell is the point? these guys are NBA scrubs now, back ups, getting paid starter money for a LONG PERIOD OF TIME

I get scrubs who have expiring contracts, so I can open my cap space to sign guys like Lebron or Yao..........just stop this


Udirth isn't a better passer than Marbury, its idiotic for you to think he will take Marbury's spot</div>


Sometimes when i argue with my 5 year old neice it turns out this way lol
jOse.....man.....son.......oh my...lol!!
Where do i start

1) You keep commenting how Shapes are bad ideas and yours good because and you're reasoning is beyond comprehension. Stop talking about how YOUR plan is better becuase it does ________ because YOUR plan is ridiculous. In order to debate these sort of issues you're plan needs to be in the realm of reality but you're are very very very very far away from that realm. Stop briging up those past ideas because they just wont happen man.
2) I dont think you understand how the NBA works these days, thinking that you can trade Marbury for expiring contracts and young talent just because he puts up good numbers. The guy is aging, makes 20mill a year and isnt a well respected player in terms of the way he plays the game.
3) Marbury is like Allen Iverson in that they are scoring gaurds. He is a 2 gaurd. Sure he can pass ok, he gets lots of assists but that doesnt mean he's a PG. Lebron gets lots of assists does that make him a better PG than Bibby? Marbury should play the 2 on LB's team and he will. Book it.
4) With the new CBA a player can make 20mill more and sign for one year longer with his old team than a new suiter. What would you do if you were him? Sign a 5 year 70 mill contract with the Knicks, a very young, very unbuilt team or sign a 6 year 90mill contract with the Cavs, a team you've been with since day 1. A team that's from the same state as you live and your parents live and you've grown up in. A team that could potentionally have given you a ring already or at very least a very very quality squad built for the soul purpose of making you a star and win win win. If you say you'd sign with New York, i dont care what your reasons are i'll walk away and hang my head feeling sorry for you.
5) ^ Same question for Yao but with some obvious differences and the addition that Yao has already said he wants to stay a Rocket and that L.A money isnt that big a draw compared to what Houston can offer.
6) Why are you so combative lately? Telling someone not to "argue with you" about anything Knicks related because you watched 82 games last year? Saying that Marbury is unselfish....scratch that...."NEEDS TO BE MORE SELFISH"

Now saying Shapes realistic ideas that would lead to more wins now and better players for the youngens to learn from are stupid then throwing you your fantasy trades like their at all realistic, touting your supremecy because you came up with the solution for the Knicks problems, when in fact all you did is come up with NBA live 2005 trades that would probably be rejected on easy mode.
7) I have to go back to this again.....Do you seriously think that you can trade Marbury, with all the money he makes and all the bad rap he has, for expiring contracts and young talent? You cant trade him for either! How can you believe that you can get rid of him without taking a bad contract back at all!? tell me its a joke please and i'll laugh with you instead.
Webber was the Kings best player...look at the contracts they took. VC was the Raps best player and look what we had to take on. And both of those players are more tradeable that Marbury for many reasons. (VC more than Webber)

I'm gunna stop typing now, but i hope this thread continues...its my daily injection of laughter.

Shape, my hat goes off to you, very cool and calm in the face of...well i wont say so that this doesnt get locked.



Actually all this makes me think about what i said the Knicks should of done shortly after draft day. I suggested they should of taken Graham at 8, traded K. Thomas to the Suns for a sign and trade of Hunter and the 21st pick(though maybe they should add in another pick in the future). Both those players fit LB's style. Graham is tough as nails, gritty defensive player and has heart and the ability to listen and learn. Ukic is a big gaurd, though he would need to add pounds to fit the "strong gaurd" role that LB is fond of.
I also said to pick up Taft which doesnt fit the LB mold and i'm now thinking about differently. He's still a good project if he pans out and it would of cost only the 30th pick so its a low risk; solid potential deal. I then said sign J. James to the MLE which still could work since he's defensive...but i actually like the idea of working out a deal where they'd aquire Ratliff from Portland, credit to Shape for that one. I think a lineup of Hunter, Ratliff, Graham, Marbury, Ukic is a pretty decent one, though it would be great if they could get a more seasoned PG to start in place of Ukic till the time is right. Perhaps the same guy the Raps are pursuing, Calderon.
Alot of this looks like what the Raps have done, but thats only because they're both in a simliar jam. They have some talented players with problem attitudes and no defense, mixed with some young potential. They are also weakest where the Raps are weakest (PG and C).

jOse dont say i'm an idiot because "we're weak at PG!!? We have the uber bestest 5th dude on the list-ish thing in the league!!!!" Dont do that because Marbury should and probably will play SG for Larry Brown, so that leaves the Knicks with Nate at PG and....no one else. Also Nate is far far far from what Larry wants at the point.

Anyways...just my thoughts.
Peace

 

[VinKanaddy]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">You're explanations are not logical.

shape...since you're trying to be realstic, where are your sorces that Knicks have to trade Marbury, a top 5 PG, and top 20 NBA player for bad contracts?

Do I remember what Phoneix did? lol are you an idiot? Phoneix GOT a whole buch of <u>EXPIRING contracts</u>, and draft picks, and young players, to open up cap space to sign guys like Quiten Richardson and Steven Nash...after that they won 60 games, that what happends when you clear up cap space....lmao, you don't trade your best player for a BAD CONTRACT

, when you trade your best guy, it basically means you want to start from <u>a clean slate</u>, not damn continue this process of overpaid long contracts...this is what you don't understand, or you don't care about...lol you don't even follow the Knicks, what can you really say?

Blazers get a first rounder, and elite PG, they already got alot of young guys on their squad, they need veteran all star to mature these kids. NVE is a bench player, and Telfair is a sophmore, all what away? Blazers benefit this trade, Knicks do this trade cause they need to rebuild right away.


Why would Larry Brown want Rasho...he's a non atheletic 7 foot guy who fouls alot, has a limited offensive game with an inconsistant jumpshot, can't hit free throws, and lost his starting job to Nazr Mohhamed...who was traded for Malik Rose...lmao, where do you get your sorces from? if Nasho does land here, we better get alot of draft picks.</div>

It wouldn't be a source if it said "The Knicks have to trade Marbury." And you better refrain from calling names instead of using logical explanations, because it will eventually lead to you being suspended or even expelled out of this board. Phoenix got young players and picks in the Marbury trade? Are you kidding me? Don't tell me names like Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward and Antonio McDyess fit the description of "young" players.

Since when is Stephon Marbury a "veteran all-star that can mature these kids"? He's never been a mentor and he probably will never be one. If anything, it will take away from the young guys' playing time and touches. By the way, Nick Van Exel is a free agent and therefore your proposed deal wouldn't work in the first place.

When you 'rebuild', it normally doesn't start and finish in one off-season. It takes at least 3-4 years of carefully planned process, which the Knicks will have to go through because of their cap situation that you spoke so fondly of. You can't expect them to unload all of their bad contracts and replace them with good, solid players with good contracts. That's mission impossible.

Shapecity's trade does not come from sources, but nor does any of your scenarios - they are all his or your ideas. At least his trade scenario makes sense, but how in the world do you expect everyone else to come to agreement with your scenarios? NBA General Managers don't have fish-brains.

 

[Skiptomylue11]

The reasons why New York shouldn't try to get Cap space for next season or as quickly as possible.
1) They signed a Hall of Fame coach and have considerably improved their roster. It looks like they will make playoffs. If you trade away all your pieces they will not make playoffs.
2) Most teams do not want to take on NY's rather large contracts, because it would restrict their flexibility. Unless NY sends a handful of draft picks, its unlikely that teams want a large number of New Yorks massive contracts.
3) New York does not care about being over the cap, which can be a positive. If your team does not care about money, then you can take on players that are talented, but teams just don't like their contracts. Like a Theo Ratcliff, Baron Davis was traded for peanuts because they didn't like his contract.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">Alot of this looks like what the Raps have done, but thats only because they're both in a simliar jam. They have some talented players with problem attitudes and no defense, mixed with some young potential. They are also weakest where the Raps are weakest (PG and C).</div>
The Raptors and the Knicks are no longer in the same boat anymore, New York needs to win now. New York didn't need Ukic, because he probably would have taken some time to develop and probably at best an average defender, it would take him some time to develop. Not to mention his intentions were to play in Europe for 2 years before the nba.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">jOse dont say i'm an idiot because "we're weak at PG!!? We have the uber bestest 5th dude on the list-ish thing in the league!!!!" Dont do that because Marbury should and probably will play SG for Larry Brown, so that leaves the Knicks with Nate at PG and....no one else. Also Nate is far far far from what Larry wants at the point.</div>
Civic, Marbury admitted he was wrong at the end of the season, that he saw Steve Nash's ways and that he should play more similar to him. If Marbury understands his old way was wrong, then the Knicks would have to look no further for a pg.

They are potentially weak at pg(depends how Marbury works out), and they still are somewhat weak at C. If they were to land Ratcliff, they would be in good shape for the next few years.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post"> So your logic is flawed, so let me ask you ... "Are you an idiot?" </div>
Shape, you've been the bigger man until this point, don't lower your debate to that level as well. If you are asking him that question, you only make it seem ok to ask you that question as well.

J0se, it accomplishes nothing if you call people names and all this nonsense, it tends to just show immaturity if that is the only way you can debate. Debate with facts, not with insults.

J0se if Mutumbo worked so well in the Philidelphia scheme, what makes you think that a quite similar player like Ratcliff could not flourish under Larry Brown in New York.

PG: Marbury/Nate
SG: Crawford/Q-Rich
SF: Q-Rich/Ariza/TT
PF: Sweetney/Rose/JYD
C: Ratcliff/Jerome James/Frye

With that team + Larry Brown, I think it has the potential to be an excellent team and Brown has been known to maximize potential with the players he has.