Rod Thorn and Jerry West talking?

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you 2 must have a lot of time on ur hands to type all that
how long did that take you?
 
the way i think about it is that is if k mart wouldnt be so selfish then they could get a another good player to add to the mix like a better center or something then they might have a even better chance at the title
 
I'm with you throwback. I hope they keep the big three but it seems we're going in a different direction. Only RJ is untouchable. Damn Ratner.

BTW, Stro and KMart are like day and night. Stro might beat KMart in a dunk contest but Stro's importance to a team doesn't even come close to KMart's

RJ4life, the NBA is a business. If you're young and talented, asking for the max if you know you're worth it and a lot of teams will be offering it doesn't mean you're not selfless. He already stated that he want's to remain a Net.
 
nets would be insane to even consider getting rid of kidd. hes a top 10 player in the leauge, and arguably the best PG in the L. k-mart's game would really suffer without him, and the nets would fall to the bottom of the playoff picture.

keeping the nucleus of deff jeff, k-mart and kidd together should be paramount. trade kittles for little to nothing if you have to. keep those 3 together
 
what it really comes down to is can we trade kittles and what could we get back. we are more in need to get rid of him than actually getting fair value for him. all reports talk about if kk stays,big3 can become the big2. im still in awe that kk is goina make aroun 10mil this upcoming yr, thats way too much for him. hopefully a team like atlanta or maybe orlando some team that wants to clear up cap room for following year can take him. im sure we will be able to get rid of kk,but may not get great value in return. but if we basically have to give kk up for almost free in order to keep the big3,then it is well worth it. the NYPost did an article on kk must go for big3 to remain
 
OK guys tell me this If you keep the big three how much damage can the big 3 do to any team in the league. People don't understand is that Kittles is a good player and if you get near to nothing to keep the big three who is going to take his place and add the 15-20 points on the board. God knows it aint going to be the bench. Come on guys he did what he had to do in the playoffs against detriot and was even scoring more consistant then KMart and spent less time on the bench. Yes his pay check is quite hefty. So you keep the big three what happens then now you got a high priced team (being that RJ is problably going to ask for max salary when his time comes but he is worth plus I have made respect for a person that would rather take a olympic gold medal then a NBA championship like he he said on espn) with no other talent around the big three where can you expect to go realisticly keep them go no where trade 2 I like Kittles and Kidd Package. And get player that complement RJ and Kmart because they are the future not JKidd he is like if we got Shaq he is a immediate fix for the team but not a long term. And i dont see Kidd winning a championship with this team right now. I would like to trade him to a team in the west that I know can win a title goes you gotta give it to the man he deserves it so much last was the year he should have gotten it. The first 2 Nets teams when Kidd was here was much better then the one that we saw this year and looks better then what it would look like if we went and kept the big three. Every year we keep getting rid of an key piece of this team and getting nothing in return. Van Horn (game winning shot against Boston) and Mutombo (i know he was probably a waste but Scott didnt play him enough, respect to a man that dives for balls in the playoffs knowing that he shouldnt Mutombo nice try) could have used him this year. Now this year Kittles possible Kidd. What they should have done was try to build around them not fix the starting line by adding Zo but Kidd would have never signed if we didnt go for him. Now Kidd said on ESPN.com is if they dont Keep KMart he may need to go to another team. How much do you think kidd wants to stay with a team with 2 young stars RJ and KMart pretty good. Now lets take Kmart and Kittles out of the equation and 2 or 3 mediocre players (since pretty much the whole bench is nothing but player that cant really perform on the NBA level day in and day out. And what do you have? You have Kidd pulling a Shaq, but we all know how Kidd is, he'll do it secretivly (I.E. Byron Scott) and say he wants to get traded cause now he is already got the money. Now he needs to go to a contending team. Trade him to Dallas so that he can play with Shaq a big man that he has never had (cause he wants to play with a big man).

Like i Keep saying I am Fan but I am a realistic fan if its going to come down to it lets rebuild but still be competitive. Because we can still be competitive especially in the East. Also we dont have any real yong talent other then KMart and RJ. So let the Competitive Rebuilding begin.

The Nets will come through this because this team is built on true Warriors to Hold them down RJ and KMart and Kidd if he doesnt get traded.

Now can you dig that.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">When he's worth the 100+ Million dollar contract, make sign him to an extension. Right now he's not and that's all I care about.</div>

When that happens, somebody already signed him up for a max and we can't do crap about it. Do you really want someone else to reap the benefits of KMart's peak?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree with what you said whole-heartly except about giving him the max contract. In 7 years, he'll be nearly 34 years old.</div>

Which for most well-trained athletes are their prime.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Well thats cause they find the open man. I don't see Kmart finding an open Kittles or Lucious Harris or Rodney Rogers. I don't see him passing to a cutting Kittles, Kidd, or RJ. Martin's passing is a person breaks free and he passes to them. That's all.</div>

It's because that's not how the Nets' offense work. With the Princeton offense that they're running, KMart and Twin makes the pre-assist. That's a pass that leads to an assist.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Cop out excuse.</div>

How can playing offense and defense against TD and Admiral be a cop out excuse? Even Shaq had troubles with the two. To think that he's the most dominating ever.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Show me a newspaper that used the word rebuild. Dropping big contracts and cost-cutting is not synonomous with rebuilding. It's called being frugal. If you think that's rebuilding, then the Clippers have been rebuilding forever. Is that what you want? To be the Clippers of the East? I rather have Kidd and RJ lead us to the playoffs each year, atleast be a respectable team.

I can't keep doing this with you for much longer cause I work, but in the end you'll have your opinion and mine with mine. Either way, you have to see that Kmart is NOT a max contract player. I mean, you know that, right? You have to. If he gets one he'll be like Antawn Jamison or Juwan Howard from a couple years ago. Max players lead their team. Kmart hasn't lead the team yet. RJ has pulled ahead of him in that respect. And that's what I wanted to say. That Kmart is NOT a max player and does not lead this team.</div>

You have to understand that you have to be frugal if you want to rebuild. Yes, the Clippers are being frugal and rebuilding but the problem is, who wants to play for the Clippers?

Antawn Jamison? Juwan Howard? I won't even comment on that.

KMart is not a leader? There is such a thing as an emotional leader and it's something as important as the stat leader. Jefferson haven't passed KMart in that department. Just because Jefferson held his own with the absence of KMart and Kidd doesn't mean he's a leader. But he's almost there.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to have the big three back. But if there's not choice, I'd prefer to have KMart over Kidd for the reasons stated by Henacy.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">When that happens, somebody already signed him up for a max and we can't do crap about it. Do you really want someone else to reap the benefits of KMart's peak?</div>

At his peak he still won't be work 85 million dollars. So they can reap all they want, but he still won't carry the team to a victory or to the playoffs.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">Which for most well-trained athletes are their prime.</div>

Then we should keep Kidd instead of Martin cause Kidd's prime hasn't even come according to you. This is if we have to choose.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">
It's because that's not how the Nets' offense work. With the Princeton offense that they're running, KMart and Twin makes the pre-assist. That's a pass that leads to an assist.</div>

Not all the time. I doubt when a Nets team gets a pass from Twin or Kmart they're like "Oh this is a pass to another pass so I shouldn't score". Princeton offense also relieson cutters so if Kmart was a good passer he need to find passer. He's an average passer at best. Which is ok for a big man.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">How can playing offense and defense against TD and Admiral be a cop out excuse? Even Shaq had troubles with the two. To think that he's the most dominating ever.</div>

It's unexcusable the way Martin played against DRobb and TD. For all his bravado and "courage" he should atleast pose a formidale foe. Instead, TD and Drobb had their way with KMart and Kenyon had very poor games. Shaq had trouble, but he wasn't stopped. I expected Kmart to atleast play his heart out, and you and I both know he didn't.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">You have to understand that you have to be frugal if you want to rebuild. Yes, the Clippers are being frugal and rebuilding but the problem is, who wants to play for the Clippers?
</div>

How are you being frugal when you want to overpay a player? Hmm? Martin isn't worth a max contract and you don't rebuild by paying a player way more than he's worth.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">KMart is not a leader? There is such a thing as an emotional leader and it's something as important as the stat leader. Jefferson haven't passed KMart in that department. Just because Jefferson held his own with the absence of KMart and Kidd doesn't mean he's a leader. But he's almost there.
</div>

He's emotional when we're winning. He's hypes up the crowd when the Nets are up. But what happens when the Nets are down? He isn't hyping up the team, he isn't doing his chants, jumping around screaming. So this is a onesided leader.

RJ lead both ways for the team. When the team is down he stepped up his play. Even when they were losing he played his heart out. That's what I expect from Martin. To paly his heart out when we're down and when our true leader, Kidd is hurt. If he's not then don't give him a max contract.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">Antawn Jamison? Juwan Howard? I won't even comment on that.
</div>

I don't think you got my point. Antawn Jamison is being paid max contract around 13 mil a year. Juwan Howard had a 100 million contract couple years back. They were considered good, but extremely overpaid players cause they couldn't carry the team. I believe if Kenyon was given a max contract like these players then he'd be considered the same.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">Don't get me wrong. I'd love to have the big three back. But if there's not choice, I'd prefer to have KMart over Kidd for the reasons stated by Henacy.</div>

Get past Kmart's bravado and entertaining play and realize what he is. He's a showman and you can see his intensity.....but its superficial... When the Nets needed a 2nd star, it was not Kmart. He backed away. He didn't show up. When he goes up against good frontcourt, he's non-existant. Great players GET THEIRS. They don't back down. They EARN RESPECT. KG earned his respect against good front courts. Tim Duncan earned respect against good front courts. Dirk earned respect against good front courts. These are the type of max powerforwards there are. To think that Kmart has reached their level is nonsense. Until he does, he should take his 70 million dollar contract and play hard.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">At his peak he still won't be work 85 million dollars. So they can reap all they want, but he still won't carry the team to a victory or to the playoffs.</div>

How can you say that? Don't you notice how he's improving? When he was in college, dunking and defense are his only good points. Look at him now. Take a look at his stats year after year.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Then we should keep Kidd instead of Martin cause Kidd's prime hasn't even come according to you. This is if we have to choose.</div>

Not with an impending surgery to his knees. Besides, wouldn't you want someone alongside RJ when he himself reaches his peak? Just imagine how much damage KMart and RJ can do together. What will happen after two years with Kidd? What will happen with KMart after two years? Oh yeah, a 20/10 guy.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Not all the time. I doubt when a Nets team gets a pass from Twin or Kmart they're like "Oh this is a pass to another pass so I shouldn't score". Princeton offense also relieson cutters so if Kmart was a good passer he need to find passer. He's an average passer at best. Which is ok for a big man.</div>

It's called looking for the high percentage shot. Besides, why would KMart force himself to make the assist to a cutter if the plays call for him to be the recipient?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">It's unexcusable the way Martin played against DRobb and TD. For all his bravado and "courage" he should atleast pose a formidale foe. Instead, TD and Drobb had their way with KMart and Kenyon had very poor games. Shaq had trouble, but he wasn't stopped. I expected Kmart to atleast play his heart out, and you and I both know he didn't.</div>

KMart did play his heart out. But if you're playing against those two guys WITHOUT ANY RELIEVERS, you'll be bound to be in foul trouble, injuries and mistakes.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">How are you being frugal when you want to overpay a player? Hmm? Martin isn't worth a max contract and you don't rebuild by paying a player way more than he's worth.</div>

If you think that he's not worth the max and I think he's worth it, there's no way that we should discuss this because it just wouldn't make sense for both of us.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">He's emotional when we're winning. He's hypes up the crowd when the Nets are up. But what happens when the Nets are down? He isn't hyping up the team, he isn't doing his chants, jumping around screaming. So this is a onesided leader.

RJ lead both ways for the team. When the team is down he stepped up his play. Even when they were losing he played his heart out. That's what I expect from Martin. To paly his heart out when we're down and when our true leader, Kidd is hurt. If he's not then don't give him a max contract.</div>

Well do you really want him to do those chants when you're losing? When I say emotional leader, he infuses toughness and energy to the team. You're not supposed to win every game. It's just a matter of what you do after the loss. Would you think that KMart will let the team suffer from mental anguish after losses? Of course not. He'll say something like they won't make any excuses for the loss and will just come back stronger for the next game. RJ is still not there. If you fail to notice, KMart does damage on both the offensive and defensive end when the game is on the line. Of course, there's not much a guy can do when you're losing by 20 points and a minute left on the clock.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think you got my point. Antawn Jamison is being paid max contract around 13 mil a year. Juwan Howard had a 100 million contract couple years back. They were considered good, but extremely overpaid players cause they couldn't carry the team. I believe if Kenyon was given a max contract like these players then he'd be considered the same.</div>

I got your point that's why I wouldn't want to comment on that. But for the record, Antawn and Howard lacks the toughness and the effect that KMart has. Besides, why are you always saying that KMart failed to carry the team. You think Kidd did all the carrying around during the 2 times they're in the championship? Kidd may be the brain of the team but KMart is the heart.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Get past Kmart's bravado and entertaining play and realize what he is. He's a showman and you can see his intensity.....but its superficial... When the Nets needed a 2nd star, it was not Kmart. He backed away. He didn't show up. When he goes up against good frontcourt, he's non-existant. Great players GET THEIRS. They don't back down. They EARN RESPECT. KG earned his respect against good front courts. Tim Duncan earned respect against good front courts. Dirk earned respect against good front courts. These are the type of max powerforwards there are. To think that Kmart has reached their level is nonsense. Until he does, he should take his 70 million dollar contract and play hard.</div>

Wow, you're one of the few who can say that. You really think he backed down from these guys?! Believe me, not having any kind of help in the frontline will make you suffer and during all his stay in NJ, he's the only one who knows how to play offense and defense in the low post. There's more to KMart than his "entertaining plays". He scores, rebounds, steal and block shots. While also being one of the top post defenders in the league. You're simply taking it against KMart that he's all alone down low while guarding 2-4 great big men at a time in the court. He'll guard the PF and also the C.
 
Nextlevelgame:
Well, I can clearly see that this back & forward debate is going no where, because Iam pretty sure we can go point-count point on every subect we have discussed about 100x over again. So I will just agree to disagree, And just wait to see what the future brings for the Nets in the upcoming week.

but this I cant let go:
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah Dr. J was gone once entered to the NBA. Buck and Rick never took the Nets to the Finals or deep into the playoffs. So I think Kidd gets a nod over them</div>.

So what if Dr. J was gone by the time the Nets joined the nba? He is still the most important payer in Nets history. He is still the all-time face of this franchise He led us to 2 aba titles & his place infront of kidd shouldnt even be considered a debate,no matter when he left.


Rick Barry was the very 1st face of this franchise, nobody even knew who the Nets were before Barry came to the squad, we had players like Doc Tart etc. He is really the one that put the Nets on the map because he was a superstar in the nba before he came to use, so for a big superstar to make the change from the NBA to basically a new-unknown ABA franchise was a big deal. So as far as"building" the Nets franchise & history Rick Barry is in front of kidd as well.

And to say Kidd has more status in Nets history then Buck Williams is overratting kidds accomplishments imo. I love & respect the fact kidd took us to the finals 2 years in a row. And all, but that still doesnt put him in front Buck Williams.

Buck Williams was our 1st really great draft pick during our NBA history. And his 7 straight years of averaging a double- double may never be matched again in Nets history. He set a legacy that every bigman in Nets history(past present, & future can only hope to obtain.).And kidd taking us to the finals in the water down east, doesnt even come close to building that type of legacy imo.

After he Steph era, Kidd clearly rebirth our franchise but you cant put him in front of players that built the franchise from the ground floor.

Thats like reaching the top of the Twin Towers,on foot, without starting at the 1st floor, it just cant happen. Those cats built this.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">How can you say that? Don't you notice how he's improving? When he was in college, dunking and defense are his only good points. Look at him now. Take a look at his stats year after year. </div>

I noticed he's improving, but not to the level where he's worth max money. Look at the power forwards making max money and deserving it. Dirk, KG, TD, JO. Do you really consider Martin on this level? They're the focal point of their teams. They lead their teams to victory. Kenyon doesn't lead his team to victories. As said before, he plays off of Kidd and his improvement is dependent on Kidd getting him easy buckets. Yes, he has improved tremendous amounts but he's still far away from those four. Even more so, he's not even on Elton Brand level, and EB can't lead his team to a .500 record. So no, he's not worth max money.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">Not with an impending surgery to his knees. Besides, wouldn't you want someone alongside RJ when he himself reaches his peak? Just imagine how much damage KMart and RJ can do together. What will happen after two years with Kidd? What will happen with KMart after two years? Oh yeah, a 20/10 guy.</div>

Wow, 20/10 doesn't say much. Elton Brand gets 20/10. Shareef got 20/10. Zach Randolph gets 20/10. What's common about all these players? They don't win. They haven't lead their teams to wins. Jason Kidd has led his team to wins. He leads deep into the finals. He instills confidence in them. He elevates his teams to different levels of achievement. So if I had to choose between a 20/10 guy like EB, SAR, or Z-Bo, or a proven winner, I'd take the winner each and every time.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">It's called looking for the high percentage shot. Besides, why would KMart force himself to make the assist to a cutter if the plays call for him to be the recipient?
</div>

Cutters get baskets through layups..I thought that was obvious.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">KMart did play his heart out. But if you're playing against those two guys WITHOUT ANY RELIEVERS, you'll be bound to be in foul trouble, injuries and mistakes.
</div>

I didn't see foul trouble stop KG from geting 24, 14, 5, 2, 2 in the playoffs. I didn't see KG not call for the ball each and every possession. I have seen Martin passive and not aggressive enough to take the game into his hands. I haven't seen Martin step up and give us the much needed basket. Till that time, he doesn't deserve a max contract, plain and simple.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">If you think that he's not worth the max and I think he's worth it, there's no way that we should discuss this because it just wouldn't make sense for both of us.</div>

I don't see how any rationale, knowledgeable basketball fan could think that Martin's worth max contract. Make a post in the NBA discussion forum asking if Martin's worth the max. I doubt you'll get many people that agree.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">Well do you really want him to do those chants when you're losing? </div>

I want him to be just as fired when we're down as when we're up.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">When I say emotional leader, he infuses toughness and energy to the team. </div>

When we're winning, yes.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">You're not supposed to win every game. </div>

That's a pathetic attitude. I hope you're not a coach. When you go into a game you believe you win. If you don't, you might as well not show up.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">Would you think that KMart will let the team suffer from mental anguish after losses? Of course not.</div>

How do you know? Are you in the locker room?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">He'll say something like they won't make any excuses for the loss and will just come back stronger for the next game.</div>

He doesn't act upon it, apparently.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">RJ is still not there. If you fail to notice, KMart does damage on both the offensive and defensive end when the game is on the line. </div>

I don't question Martin's ability. I say he doesn't deserve max contract. I really don't see what's so hard to understand and see that. Do you really want to see him turn into an overpaid player unable to lead a team and we can't get rid of his huge bloated contract a la Antoine Walker?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">Of course, there's not much a guy can do when you're losing by 20 points and a minute left on the clock.
</div>

That was the most random statement.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">I got your point that's why I wouldn't want to comment on that. But for the record, Antawn and Howard lacks the toughness and the effect that KMart has. </div>

Agreed, but they're still overpaid.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">Besides, why are you always saying that KMart failed to carry the team. You think Kidd did all the carrying around during the 2 times they're in the championship? </div>

In terms of making the team win, yes. In terms of straigtening out the franchise, yes. In terms of making Kmart and RJ a bettter player, yes. I would say that Kidd deserves his contract.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">Kidd may be the brain of the team but KMart is the heart.
</div>

That's the biggest cliche there is about the Nets. I can't believe you resorted that. And I'll say it again, Martin is REPLACABLE, Kidd is NOT.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">Wow, you're one of the few who can say that.</div>

I'm probably one of the few Nets fans that see that, but if you're talking about NBA fans, look at what other people say.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">You really think he backed down from these guys?! Believe me, not having any kind of help in the frontline will make you suffer and during all his stay in NJ</div>

Yes I do believe he backed down from these guys. Did you watch him play? He was so passive. He didn't play his heart out. He didn't play like there was nothing left of him. He just took it, and it was sad.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">he's the only one who knows how to play offense and defense in the low post. </div>

That's not really saying much, but he failed to even do that at a high max contract player level.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">There's more to KMart than his "entertaining plays". He scores, rebounds, steal and block shots. </div>

Maybe he's just turning into a good stats player and not a franchise player.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">While also being one of the top post defenders in the league. </div>

There's not many good post defenders in the league. There's KG, TD, JO, Shaq, Ben, Sheed....that's already 6 and I can't think of many more. Maybe Brand, or Ratliff. Still being a top post defender doesn't have much competition these days. I'm not knocking Kmart's defense. It is top line, but he has to be more than that if the Nets want to win. And to me, he's great against weak competition, but is mediocre against tougher.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">You're simply taking it against KMart that he's all alone down low while guarding 2-4 great big men at a time in the court.</div>

I'm taking it out on Kmart because so many great 4s and 5s players before him have played awesome alone against great frontlines. Hakeem did. KG did. TD did. Shaq did. If he played great and lost, then I have not problem. But he didn't. He just took the beating and played horriffic. This isn't just one time, this is multiple time. History has shown that he hasn't played well against elite players. And while I want him to stay at the Nets, not at the price tag he's asking.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">So what if Dr. J was gone by the time the Nets joined the nba? He is still the most important payer in Nets history. He is still the all-time face of this franchise He led us to 2 aba titles & his place infront of kidd shouldnt even be considered a debate,no matter when he left.
</div>

I agree. Dr. J has done more for the franchise than Kidd.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post"> Rick Barry was the very 1st face of this franchise, nobody even knew who the Nets were before Barry came to the squad, we had players like Doc Tart etc. He is really the one that put the Nets on the map because he was a superstar in the nba before he came to use, so for a big superstar to make the change from the NBA to basically a new-unknown ABA franchise was a big deal. So as far as"building" the Nets franchise & history Rick Barry is in front of kidd as well.
</div>

I never knocked on Rick Barry and what he has done for the Nets. But he had not matched Kidd's achievements with the Nets. He was only with the Franchise for two years, barely kept the team over .500 and didn't take the Nets anywhere. The Nets averaged more points allowed than points scored. Perhaps it wasn't Barry's fault this happened.

I don't know where you're getting about giving face to the Nets when he was only here for two seasons and not even very good seasons.

Kidd took the franchise to a 52-30 record, first in the East when he got here. He took them to an Eastern Conference championship, and the Finals. That's more than Barry has ever done for the Nets and which is why Kidd is ranked above Barry.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">And to say Kidd has more status in Nets history then Buck Williams is overratting kidds accomplishments imo. I love & respect the fact kidd took us to the finals 2 years in a row. And all, but that still doesnt put him in front Buck Williams.

Buck Williams was our 1st really great draft pick during our NBA history. And his 7 straight years of averaging a double- double may never be matched again in Nets history. He set a legacy that every bigman in Nets history(past present, & future can only hope to obtain.).And kidd taking us to the finals in the water down east, doesnt even come close to building that type of legacy imo.</div>

Have you ever seen Buck Williams play? He wasn't a great player by any means. He was solid, tough one, no doubt. He was like Horace Grant, a bit better but a lot smaller for a big guy. He was a great rebounder and got his points off of offensive rebounding and putbacks. But he was hardly the leader of the team. WHen he joined the team started going to the playoffs, but they never even won 1 game. They were swept each and every year except 1984. And in that year, Buck wasn't leading the team. It was Darryl Dawkins and Otis Birdsong (though Otis was oft-injured). And then after that Nets got swept or didn't even make the playoffs. So in all the years Buck was here, he won 4 playoff games. Kidd since coming to the Nets has averaged 11 playoff wins per season. In Buck's 8 years with the Nets, only 1 time has he had a season where he had more wins than Jason's average wins with the Nets.

Don't give me the bull about being in a watered-down East. 52, 46, 47 wins is impressive. Two finals appearances. Two EC banners. Broke the assists, wins, steals and most consecutive wins franchise records is impressive, no matter who it is. Did Buck do this? No. Did Rick do this? No. It was Kidd. Only player that has grounds is Dr. J when he took the Nets to the ABA championship.

I don't want to knock either Buck or Barry cause they have played with for the Nets, but they are no way considered higher than Kidd in accomplishments. The banners, barring the ABA wons, were hung because of Kidd.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Thats like reaching the top of the Twin Towers,on foot, without starting at the 1st floor, it just cant happen. Those cats built this.</div>

I don't understand what you're getting at here. The Nets have been the laughing stock of the NBA pre-Kidd era. They were pile drived into the ground. Your statements work with franchises like the Celtics or Lakers, but not the Nets. They were the three Hs: horrific, horendous, and horrible. No one respected the Nets outside of Nets fans. Playing the Nets meant a garunteed win. There was no goals for the Nets, no expectations. Not until Kidd came and turned them around into winners. Gave some respect to the Nets. Made Nets fans proud to be fans. And that's what I'm talking about when I say Kidd made this franchise.
 
I will give you all that but Kidd did turn this team around but dont forget that all the piece of the puzzle were in place they just needed Kidd and Byron Scott. Please people dont for get about the coach he did so much for us in 2 years. Be it granted that he probably wouldn't had gotten as far as he did without Kidd but this coach did put emotion back into the team. Kidd determination + KMarts Intensity + Kittles Experience + Van Horns Expereince and shooting + Jefferson youth = a Great team
Thats why we looked so good was cause we had youth coming off the bench with Jefferson he was the bloomer in the first run. then the second run KMart and RJ improved but could not handle TD and Robinson. Let alone Kidd gets schooled every year by a point guard in the playoffs or finals. Tony Parker showed him, Fischer even did it, and Billups (but kidd was injured, but billups would have still gotten his cause he was unstopable this year). So he is showing his body can't handle this agressive play any more and he is showing slowing down with the faster pg and because we had kittles defense to guard the faster pg we were able to complement that style of play.
 
If I remember correctly, it was Kittles that was having a problem gaurding players like Kobe and Rip Hamilton. When Kidd was on Kobe, Kobe was neutralized for awhile, but still got his because it's Kobe. Kittles couldn't fight through screens to catch Rip Hamilton and Rip was scorching Kittles like crazy. Then when Kidd was placed on Rip, Rip was slowed down as Kidd can fight through screens. The only time I can recall where Kidd was bailed out was Tony Parker. Parker did burn Kidd, but Kidd was already doing so much in the series (please, I rather not get into this arguement again) it's understandable that he needed a break.

The best player on the team rarely gaurds the other best player on the team. Bird never gaurded Magic. Scottie took the best 1-3 on the other team instead of Jordan. Kobe usually gaurded Bruce Bowen instead of Ginobili. Kobe gaurded Christie when his efforts should've been on Bibby in '02 playoffs. Why don't these players gaurd the best player on the other team? Cause they need energy on the offensive end to either score or run the offense. That's the way it's always been and it doesn't change for Kidd.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't see how any rationale, knowledgeable basketball fan could think that Martin's worth max contract. Make a post in the NBA discussion forum asking if Martin's worth the max. I doubt you'll get many people that agree</div>.

Now you are trying to knock him because he agrees that we should invest in our future. What type of player do think a one leg kidd will be 4 years from now? dont post your answer, its just a question to think to your self.

Nobody said K-Mart was worth max now, people just want to invest in the future instead of the past/present like you want too.

Was KG worth that 1st, 120million dollar deal at the time he signed it?


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I never knocked on Rick Barry and what he has done for the Nets. But his haven't matched Kidd's achievements with the Nets. He was only with the Franchise for two year, barely kept the team over .500 and didn't take the Nets anywhere. The Nets averaged more points allowed than points scored. Perhaps it wasn't Barry's fault this happened.

I don't know where you're getting about giving face to the Nets when he was only here for two seasons and not even very good seasons.

Kidd took the franchise to a 52-30 record, first in the East when he got here. He took them to an Eastern Conference championship, and the Finals. That's more than Barry has ever done for the Nets and which is why Kidd is ranked above Barry</div>.

Name one great player on the Nets that people cared about before Barry?

Yes, the Nets stunk when Barry played for the Nets. But his indiviual impact was big on the team & franchse history. Period. The fact the Nets were basically a new franchise was the reason they struggled. You put kidd at the very start of the Nets franchise & they will stink as well.

You talk about Barry longivety with the team but kidd has only played 3 seasons with the Nets.

All you keep talking about is the fact J.Kidd took us to the finals, yes that great but you have to take in to context how weak the east was,if you want to be realistic.

truthfully,All we did was beat a bunch of below average to average teams to get to the finals. No team, we beat will every go down in history as a impact team.

If you give Barry just a solid Nets teams, that fit his style of play, he would have taken it to the finals s well vs the competion we faced.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Have you ever seen Buck Williams play? He wasn't a great player by any beans. He was solid one. He was like Horace Grant.</div>

Yes, I seen lots film of him as a Net. And seen play alot for the Blazers & Knicks as a kid growing up.

Buck Williams on the Nets,might have done similar things as Horace Grant but Buck did them better.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> A great rebounder and got his points off of offensive rebounding and putbacks</div>.

Exactly that is what you want your bigbodies to do. I can tell by your disrespect of k-Mart & buck that you dont respect the players who do the dirty work. But they are truely what makes a team function.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But he was hardly the leader of the team. WHen he joined the team started going to the playoffs, but they never even won 1 game. They were swept each and every year except 1984. And in that year, Buck wasn't leading the team. It was Darryl Dawkins and Otis Birdsong (though Otis was oft-injured). And then after that Nets got swept or didn't even make the playoffs. So in all the years Buck was here, he won 4 playoff games. Kidd since coming to the Nets has averaged 11 playoff wins per season. In Buck's 8 years with the Nets, only 1 time has he had a season where he had more wins than Jason's average wins with the Nets</div>.

Once again not giving the credit that is due. To say Darryl Dawkins was a leader of anything is the worst thing I have ever heard. Dawkins the guythat wrote books on how he use to stay out all night before games get high & do his own thing puttin the best of the team in the back burner. A guy who was known by everyone assoicated with the NBA as one of the biggest underacheivers in basketball history.

To big Jason Kidd up,All you want to do is compare win & losses in completely different eras. What part of the east was wack dont you understand? Lets see if Kidd can gets us 50 wins now that the rest of the east is a bit more legit again, before we start over crowning his accomplishments win comparing him to other Nets legends.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Don't give me the bull about being in a watered-down East. 52, 46, 47 wins is impressive. Two finals appearances. Two EC banners. Broke the assists, wins, steals and most consecutive wins franchise records is impressive, no matter who it is. Did Buck do this? No. Did Rick do this? No. It was Kidd. Only player that has grounds is Dr. J when he took the Nets to the ABA championship</div>

Nobody said it wasnt impressive, you just want to overate it instead of being truthful with yourself. Once again, name one team that when we look back on history, we as Nets fans can say we beat an above average team duringour run to the east titles back to back?



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't understand what you're getting at here. The Nets have been the laughing stock of the NBA pre-Kidd era. They were pile drived into the ground. Your statements work with franchises like Boston and LA, but not the Nets. They were the three Hs: horrific, horendous, and horrible. No one respected the Nets outside of Nets fans. Playing the Nets meant a garunteed win. There was no goals for the Nets, no expectations. Not until Kidd came and turned them around into winners. Gave some respect to the Nets. Made Nets fans proud to be fans. And that's what I'm talking about when I say Kidd made this franchise.</div>

Yes the two seasons before kidd came to the Nets we were horrible. But we had good competive eras of basketball before kidd came here. We had the aba titles during the 70's, we were a competive team during the Larry brown & Stan Albeck during the early-mid 80's. And we had a good two year run with Chuck Daly during the early 90's. They didnt go deep into the playoffs but niether would this Nets team if they played in the east during that time.

So yes kidd rebirth us, but he did not biuld us like you want to believe.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Now you are trying to knock him because he agrees that we should invest in our future. What type of player do think a one leg kidd will be 4 years from now? dont post your answer, its just a question to think to your self.</div>

I understand you don't want an answer, but how are you so sure Kidd will not recover? Your precious Martin recovered after he shattered his foot. Kittles recovered. It's more than concievable that it can happen. Kidd is always in top condition and doesn't let up.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Nobody said K-Mart was worth max now, people just want to invest in the future instead of the past like you want too.
</div>

IntheNETSweTrust said he was worth max now. Read his post.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Was KG worth that 1st, 120million dallar deal at the time he signed it? </div>

KG was also getting 19, 10, 5, 2, 2 that season at the age of 20. His upside was enormous. Martin is 6 years older and doesn't even get that. Different scenario.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Name one great player on the Nets that people carry about before Barry?</div>

No idea what you just said.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes, the Nets stunk when Barry played for the Nets. But his indiviual impact was big on the team & franchse history. Period. The fact the Nets were basically a new franchise was the reasn they struggled. You put kidd at the very start of the Nets franchise & they will stink as well.
</div>

Never said it wasn't an impact. Just that his impact isn't something to talk about and gave respect to the Nets. SAR had the same impact in Atlanta. EB has the same impact in the Clippers. Vince Carter had the same impact with the Raptors. Good players, but they didn't really elevate the team. Didn't gain accolades for the franchise. That's why Kidd is above. But I'm also NOT saying it's unimportant.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">You talk about Barry longivety with the team but kidd has only played 3 seasons with the Nets.</div>

And in those three seasons he has done more than Barry has. Once again. I'm not knocking on Barry or what he has done. I'm just simply stating that Kidd had more of an impact on the Nets than Barry did.

It's like saying that Shaq won more championships than Magic did and was more dominant. Does it take away from Magic? Ofcourse not. Does it make Magic less of a player in Laker history? No way. Does that make Shaq a better player than Magic? By no means. That's all I'm stating.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">All you keep talking about is the fact J.Kidd took us to the finals, yes that great but you have to take in to context how weak the east was,if you want to be realistic.

truthfully,All we did was beat a bunch of below average to average teams to get to the finals. No team, we beat will every go down in history as a impact team.
</div>

And you say you're not trying to take away from Kidd? I don't care how watered down the East was, what Kidd did was impressive. 20 something wins to 52. From the bottom of the league to the top. That's a huge franchise turnaround. And you can't take that away from Kidd or make it seem like it was easy.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">If you give Barry just a solid Nets teams that fit his style of play, he would have taken it to the finals s well vs the competion we faced.</div>

You were the one knocking me for doing hypothetical situations before. Here you go and offer one. Be consistent.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes, I seen lots film of him as a Net. And seen play alot for the Blazers & Knicks as a kid growing up.

Buck Williams on the Nets,might have done similar things as Horace Grant but Buck dd them better.
</div>

Yes, but he didn't lead the team. He was a solid player for the Nets for a long time, which gives him his place in Nets history. But he wasn't the focal point. He was a solid role player. You can't really say that he led the Nets to anything though. I mean, only one playoff series win while he was here. Don't give me the watered down East thing again because Kidd would've won more than one playoff series in 8 years.

Also, when he was with Portland he became even more of a role player and by the time he got to the Knicks he was a shadow of his former self. So I don't really go by that.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly that is what you want your bigbodies to do. I can tell by yor disrespect of -Mart that you dont respect the players who do the dirty work. But tey are truely what makes a team function.</div>

We don't have to get nasty slinging accustations. My beef with Kmart is that he's being too superficial as a player right now and doesn't warrant the max contract he wants. Nothing more, nothing less. If he took a 70 mill contract, I have no problems. I said that many times.

I only want Kmart to accept that he isn't a max contract player. But if he wants to be a max contract player than he cannot be passive and non-existant when the team needs him the most. Please understand this.

And for players that do the dirty work, all through my life my favorite players have been bigs. Kareem. David Robinson. Hakeem Olajuwon. Charles Barkley. Kevin Garnett. A young Shaq. Alonzo Mourning. Charles Oakley. Ben Wallace. I even liked watching Dennis Rodman. I know what a solid big man is. I know what they're roles are. I also can seperate the difference between a role playing big and a max-contract big. And I think I've done so here.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Once again not giving the credit that is due. To say Darryl Dawkins was a leader of anything is the worst thing I have ever heard. Dawkins the guythat wrote books on how he use to stay out all night before games get high & do his own thing puttin the best of the team in the back burner. A guy who was known by everyone assoicated with the NBA as one of the biggest underacheivers in basketball history.
</div>

God damn, do you just not read what I write? I said, "I don't want to knock either Buck or Barry cause they have played with for the Nets," so many times. Please get it this time. Who cares about what Dawkins did outside of the court? Shaq parties a lot, does that make him not the leader of the Lakers? Magic was very promiscuous. Wilt was even more promiscuous. Darryl could ball. He was the focus of the offense. He was unstoppable, if you ever watched him play.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">To big Jason Kidd up,All you want to do is compare win & losses in completely different eras. What part of the east was wack dont you understand? Lets see if Kidd can gets us 50 wins now that the rest of the east is a bit more legit again, before we start over crowning his accomplishments win comparing him to other Nets legends.</div>

You really really underrate Jason Kidd. No matter what you say, you can't take away what he has done with the franchise. You can say the East sucks blah blah blah, but he did it. No other Net can claimed what he has accomplished for the Nets in the NBA. NONE. And if you don't consider Jason Kidd a NJ legend, then I just think you have something against Kidd.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Nobody said it wasnt impressive, you just want to overate it instead of being truthful with yourself. Once again, name one team that when we look back on history, we as Nets fans can say we beat an above average team duringour run to the east titles back to back?</div>

We took the Spurs to 6 games. That's as much as any team in the entire playoffs have done. Actually, we did even mroe cause in the 6th games, Suns were blown, Lakers were blown out. We had the lead in the 4th, just blew it. No other team can claim that. The Nets tookt his years champions to 7 games. No other team in the NBA, not the Pacers or the Lakers could. We held a lead at a point during the series as well. No other playoff team could claim that as well. We had a 10 game win streak in the playoff. Do you forget these things? I mean, we won 10 games in row! Who cares if the east suck, that's still difficult.

<u>And once again, I said, I don't knock either Barry, Williamson, Buck, or Dr. J for what they have done for the Nets. It is very important to history </u> I really hope you get it that time. But what Jason Kidd has accomplished more with the team than they have. <u>Not more important, just more achievements</u> Please, please get that.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes the two seasons before kidd came to the Nets we were horrible. But we had good competive eras of basketball before kidd came here. We had the aba titles during the 70's, we were a competive team during the Larry brown & Stan Albeck during the early-mid 80's. And we had a good two year run with Chuck Daly during the early 90's. </div>

Agreed. But no matter what the time was, you cannot take away the accolades that Jason Kidd has surmmounted for the Nets. You can't take away that teams respect the Nets cause Jason Kidd had turned the franchise around. You can't take away that people rank the Nets as an elite team because Jason Kidd, the MVP-candidate, made this team better. And most importantly, you cannot deny it.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">They didnt go deep into the playoffs but niether would this Nets team if they played in the east during that time.</div>

You don't know that so it's disregarded. Just like when I claimed that Kmart wouldn't be able to take the '01 Suns teams to the playoffs with a mediocore point gaurd, you said I couldn't say that, I'm gonna say the same to you.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">So yes kidd rebirth us, but he did not biuld us like you want to believe.</div>

I never said he built us. I said he turned around us and gave us respect. I might have used the word "made", but thats in different context. Build would required starting from scratch, which I did not imply. Made meaning that Kidd put us on the map, which is true. Differences in word usage.


In all seriousness, I just think you don't really like Kidd. I think you respect him that he got us to the Finals, but you don't really want him here and you're trying to use excuses such as his injury to mask that. And that's understandable. A lot of fans have feelings like that. Sacto fants with Webber. Portland fans with Walton. And now LA fans with Shaq.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">If I remember correctly, it was Kittles that was having a problem gaurding players like Kobe and Rip Hamilton. When Kidd was on Kobe, Kobe was neutralized for awhile, but still got his because it's Kobe. Kittles couldn't fight through screens to catch Rip Hamilton and Rip was scorching Kittles like crazy. Then when Kidd was placed on Rip, Rip was slowed down as Kidd can fight through screens. The only time I can recall where Kidd was bailed out was Tony Parker. Parker did burn Kidd, but Kidd was already doing so much in the series (please, I rather not get into this arguement again) it's understandable that he needed a break.

The best player on the team rarely gaurds the other best player on the team. Bird never gaurded Magic. Scottie took the best 1-3 on the other team instead of Jordan. Kobe usually gaurded Bruce Bowen instead of Ginobili. Kobe gaurded Christie when his efforts should've been on Bibby in '02 playoffs. Why don't these players gaurd the best player on the other team? Cause they need energy on the offensive end to either score or run the offense. That's the way it's always been and it doesn't change for Kidd.</div>

so your telling me that kidd was not getting tore up when he was guarding billups and when they did the change up Kittles didnt put billups on slow mode. Kobe did guard BIbby dont you remember the notorious elbow if it didnt happen maybe the kings would have won. that is true that the people dont usually guard the top players on the team but the fact is that kidd could compete but not for a long time and that is his draw to come in day in and day out playing his not going to last much longer. going up against likes of players that are younger and faster then he is and what happens when kittles is gone hopefully they can get a player that put the clamps on players. That and if Kidd gets no help in that position he's going to be screwed gauranteed. so hopefully they can make moves to complemant the big three if not I can live with the big 2 RJ and KMart and get some great players for him
 
I remember Kidd playing perfect defense against Billups last season. And you were right about Kobe and Bibby. I was just saying that Kobe should've been on Bibby throughout the whole game. At crucial times, yes, Kobe was on Bibby. And I'm not gonna get into the Big 2 of RJ and Kmart arguement with you. You know my position.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I understand you don't want an answer, but how are you so sure Kidd will not recover? Your precious Martin recovered after he shattered his foot. Kittles recovered. It's more than concievable that it can happen. Kidd is always in top condition and doesn't let up.</div>

I dont want to answer the question? I did answer the question like 20 post ago. I dont know if he will recover,but I know that the chace are he will never be the same after the knee surgery, especially since he relies on his knees & speed.

So know, I dont know if kidd will recover or not, but I know Allan Houston had the similiar surgery & has yet to recover.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">IntheNETSweTrust said he was worth max now. Read his post.</div>

Where did I say IntheNetsweTrust said k-mart was worth max, he said that he rather rebuild arund the younger k-mart, which was an/is my exact point.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">KG was also getting 19, 10, 5, 2, 2 that season at the age of 20. His upside was enormous. Martin is 6 years older and doesn't even get that. Different scenario.</div>

of course KG was younger he didnt go to college. K-Mart has enormous upside as well, so what are you talking about. My point was neither player was worth the max when they wee asking for it,which means that the teams were/will be investing in the players future.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No idea what you just said.</div>

My bad on that, I said name one Nets player people cared about before Rick Barry?



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Never said it wasn't an impact. Just that his impact isn't something to talk about and gave respect to the Nets. SAR had the same impact in Atlanta. EB has the same impact in the Clippers. Vince Carter had the same impact with the Raptors. Good players, but they didn't really elevate the team. Didn't gain accolades for the franchise. That's why Kidd is above. But I'm also NOT saying it's unimportant</div>.

No SAR isnt the same. Was SAR a superstar that switched leagues & joined a ne franchise basically & made them become more popular. And visiable to the worldwide public?



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And in those three seasons he has done more than Barry has. Once again. I'm not knocking on Barry or what he has done. I'm just simply stating that Kidd had more of an impact on the Nets than Barry did.</div>

of course he did more,look how much was already in place when kidd came hear. Rick Barry was at the grass roots part of the Nets franchise. So of course kidd going to be more successful then a guy coming to a start of franchise. The point is Barry put this franchise on the map in the NBA. Not kidd 30 years later in the NBA.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's like saying that Shaq won more championships than Magic did and was more dominant. Does it take away from Magic? Ofcourse not. Does it make Magic less of a player in Laker history? No way. Does that make Shaq a better player than Magic? By no means. That's all I'm stating.</div>

Well Kidd didnt win any world championship rings,so in the Rick Barry with the Nets & Kidd with the Nets, we are comparing two players with no ultimate rings.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And you say you're not trying to take away from Kidd? I don't care how watered down the East was, what Kidd did was impressive. 20 something wins to 52. From the bottom of the league to the top. That's a huge franchise turnaround. And you can't take that away from Kidd or make it seem like it was easy.</div>

Iam not taking anyting away from kidd but you are acting like its the best thing ever done in the NBA.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You were the one knocking me for doing hypothetical situations before. Here you go and offer one. Be consistent</div>.

That isnt a hypothetical situation, its pretty much as fact, opinion for me. You can agree or disagree. I wasnt asing you to agree,just stating my opinion.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes, but he didn't lead the team. He was a solid player for the Nets for a long time, which gives him his place in Nets history. But he wasn't the focal point. He was a solid role player. You can't really say that he led the Nets to anything though. I mean, only one playoff series win while he was here. Don't give me the watered down East thing again because Kidd would've won more than one playoff series in 8 years</div>.

You keep making that statement about the water-down east,you must know its the truth too.

It all depends on what type of team kidd had over those 8 years.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, when he was with Portland he became even more of a role player and by the time he got to the Knicks he was a shadow of his former self. So I don't really go by that.</div>

Agreed.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">We don't have to get nasty slinging accustations. My beef with Kmart is that he's being too superficial as a player right now and doesn't warrant the max contract he wants. Nothing more, nothing less. If he took a 70 mill contract, I have no problems. I said that many times</div>

I wasnt slinging any nasty accusations at you. The first thing you said everytime I talk about K-Mart & Buck, was how much they didnt have post moves. And my point is you can still be great at being a bigbody without being go to post player so to speak. Dennis Rodman is a legend type player based on hs scrappiness,rebounding & defense. And he had no post moves what so ever.

So to say someone isntgreat because all he does is the scrappy work is un fair imo.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I only want Kmart to accept that he isn't a max contract player. But if he wants to be a max contract player than he cannot be passive and non-existant when the team needs him the most. Please understand this.</div>

Once again players nowadays are getting paid on what they may do in the future. I mean do you think based on Erick Dampier's career so far he is worth 8-10 mill per? Well that is what type of contract he is expecting to recieve on the free agent market this year.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And for players that do the dirty work, all through my life my favorite players have been bigs. Kareem. David Robinson. Hakeem Olajuwon. Charles Barkley. Kevin Garnett. A young Shaq. Alonzo Mourning. Charles Oakley. Ben Wallace. I even liked watching Dennis Rodman. I know what a solid big man is. I know what they're roles are. I also can seperate the difference between a role playing big and a max-contract big. And I think I've done so here.</div>

How can you tell if K-Mart is a max big or not if he hasnt reached his full potenial.

I mean its easy to look back now and say

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">God damn, do you just not read what I write? I said, "I don't want to knock either Buck or Barry cause they have played with for the Nets," so many times. Please get it this time. Who cares about what Dawkins did outside of the court? Shaq parties a lot, does that make him not the leader of the Lakers? Magic was very promiscuous. Wilt was even more promiscuous. Darryl could ball. He was the focus of the offense. He was unstoppable, if you ever watched him play.</div>

Thats my point it did effect his on court play. When Darryl Dawkins was on Mike & the Mad dog promoting his book, he said out his own mouth that his off-court life style effect him not reaching his full potienial as a player. So if his off-court lifestyle is affecting him not reaching his full potenial then its is affecting his on-court game. And the success of the team. Leaders dont do that point blank. Wilt & Magic may have been permiscuous, but I never heard them admit to doing drugs. He admitted he did drugs with Micheal Ray Richardson when they were on the Nets together in 83'-86'. But thats the leader right.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You really really underrate Jason Kidd. No matter what you say, you can't take away what he has done with the franchise. You can say the East sucks blah blah blah, but he did it. No other Net can claimed what he has accomplished for the Nets in the NBA. NONE. And if you don't consider Jason Kidd a NJ legend, then I just think you have something against Kidd.</div>

Where did I say kidd wast a Nets legend? post the paragraph.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">We took the Spurs to 6 games. That's as much as any team in the entire playoffs have done. Actually, we did even mroe cause in the 6th games, Suns were blown, Lakers were blown out. We had the lead in the 4th, just blew it. No other team can claim that. The Nets tookt his years champions to 7 games. No other team in the NBA, not the Pacers or the Lakers could. We held a lead at a point during the series as well. No other playoff team could claim that as well. We had a 10 game win streak in the playoff. Do you forget these things? I mean, we won 10 games in row! Who cares if the east suck, that's still difficult</div>.

I didnt say it wasn great but you said it all in your 1st paragraph When we faced a really good team we got shut down in 6, so the 10 wins vs the east is pretty pointless. I mean we had 14 wins in a row vs the east if you incude this years 1st round sweep of the Nets.But once again once we faced a legit team we went down.

If Kidd was superman like you try to act like he is then the Nets would have beat oneof the truely legit teams we faced over our three year kidd era.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
<u>And once again, I said, I don't knock either Barry, Williamson, Buck, or Dr. J for what they have done for the Nets. It is very important to history </u> I really hope you get it that time. But what Jason Kidd has accomplished more with the team than they have. <u>Not more important, just more achievements</u> Please, please get that.</div>

Yes Jason Kidd has accomplished mor but that doesnt make him more important is my point.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Agreed. But no matter what the time was, you cannot take away the accolades that Jason Kidd has surmmounted for the Nets. You can't take away that teams respect the Nets cause Jason Kidd had turned the franchise around. You can't take away that people rank the Nets as an elite team because Jason Kidd, the MVP-candidate, made this team better. And most importantly, you cannot deny it.</div>

People respect the Nets because K-Mart is one of the most fearless players down low in the NBA. People respect the Nets because RJ is slowly but surely becoming one of the best wing players in the league. people dont just respect the Nets because of kidd.

Kidd has turned the Nets aroud yes, Bu the NBA knows he has had help doing so from the players to the coaching staff. And thats why they respect the Nets.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I never said he built us. I said he turned around us and gave us respect. I might have used the word "made", but thats in different context. Build would required starting from scratch, which I did not imply. Made meaning that Kidd put us on the map, which is true. Differences in word usage</div>.

Well I totally took what you said in the wrong context then, when I see the word make or made, I think of built. When you restore something you didnt "make" or "made" it, you simply gave it new life, a rebirth of sort.

ut how are you trying to say that you are not impying kidd made us, whenyou keep saying kidd put us on the map. We were already their,
Dr. J put us on the map about 30 years ago.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">In all seriousness, I just think you don't really like Kidd. I think you respect him that he got us to the Finals, but you don't really want him here and you're trying to use excuses such as his injury to mask that. And that's understandable. A lot of fans have feelings like that. Sacto fants with Webber. Portland fans with Walton. And now LA fans with Shaq</div>.

I dont like kidd? far from the truth, whenI 1st came to this site in oct. I listed him as one of my fav current Nets. when there was that thread about "building the your Nets historic team",he was on it. I had Jason Kidd in my sig for months. Every discussion about kidd on or off this site I give my respect to kidd. But I also put the kidd-era into truthful context.

And I never said I dont him hear, that would be dumb. All I said was if the Netshave to cut cost & chose between Martin or Kidd to focus the team around. Then I want the team to be focused around the younger Martin.

If te Nets can keep all three of the big 3 then that would be thegrest thingimo. But I dont see it happening based on the Daily News & Espn reports. If ou take that as me not likingKidd then I dnt know what can I say except yu totally have the wrong picture of my point.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">]I dont want to answer the question? I did answer the question like 20 post ago. I dont know if he will recover,but I know that the chace are he will never be the same after the knee surgery, especially since he relies on his knees & speed. </div>

You posted "don't post a reply" So thats why I said "I understand you don't want an answer". Read what you said before reading my response.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">So know, I dont know if kidd will recover or not, but I know Allan Houston had the similiar surgery & has yet to recover</div>

Just because Allan Houston hasn't, you're basing this on? Why not say Grant Hill? Jamal Masburn? I mean these players are individually different, case by case. So I don't think its relevant.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Where did I say IntheNetsweTrust said k-mart was worth max, he said that he rather rebuild arund the younger k-mart, which was an/is my exact point.
</div>

Look at InNETSweTrust's post..#39. He said "If you think that he's not worth the max and I think he's worth it." Read his post again.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">of course KG was younger he didnt go to college. K-Mart has enormous upside as well, so what are you talking about. My point was neither player was worth the max when they wee asking for it,which means that the teams were/will be investing in the players future.
</div>

...you didn't get my point. When you're young like 20 years old, putting up 19, 10, 5, 2, 2. Means you can only get better and probably be at your prime around 27. That's a good 7 years to get better than those stats. Few people have even accomplished what KG did their entire careers and here's a guy who can do it at 20. Kmart's 26, 27 years old. He's averaging 18, 10, 3, 1, 2. That's good, but he's reaching his prime and probably won't do much better than that for a lasting time like KGs. So the scenario is different between the two. One was 20, the other was 27...Do you see the difference? Kmart has probably around 2 or 3 years left to improve and thats it. KG had 7 years even more after the contract cause he'd be 27, 28 years old. Do you get it now? KG's situation is not the same as Kmart's current. And besides, watching a young KG and Kmart, you can tell the difference.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">My bad on that, I said name one Nets player people cared about before Rick Barry?</div>

It was the ABA. It was long time ago. He had brought a big name to the Franchise. But he hadn't brought them accolades. He was a very good player for the Nets, but not at the level Jason was.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">No SAR isnt the same. Was SAR a superstar that switched leagues & joined a ne franchise basically & made them become more popular. And visiable to the worldwide public? </div>

Ok fine, I'll concede you that.

[qupte=Henacy]of course he did more,look how much was already in place when kidd came hear. Rick Barry was at the grass roots part of the Nets franchise. So of course kidd going to be more successful then a guy coming to a start of franchise. The point is Barry put this franchise on the map in the NBA. Not kidd 30 years later in the NBA.
[/quote]

I don't you're old enough to know what Rick Barry was like for the Nets. From you're profile you just turned 21 years old. Congratz. But I grew up differently. I wasn't old enough to watch Barry play or just can't remember, but I also know that he wasn't being talked much and doing much for the franchise. My father said he was a great player, fun to watch but nothing special. He said Barry did bring excitement as he took the Nets to the ABA finals but lost to the Pacers. But then he had to leave due to contract reasons with Golden State. Very promising what Rick did. But to me the lack of longetivity and commitement to the Nets that still puts Kidd over him. Kidd had the same accolades, however he committed more to the franchise when he signed the deal. Different situation.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Well Kidd didnt win any world championship rings,so in the Rick Barry with the Nets & Kidd with the Nets, we are comparing two players with no ultimate rings. </div>

No rings witht he Nets, yes. But differences are still there. Kidd gave the best franchise turnaround. He brought the Nets to the most wins in franchise history. He brought the Nets to two finals, where Barry had 1.

But that's not what I'm getting at, because I don't want to make light of what Barry did. What you said was that Barry gave name to the franchise and built and gave name to this franchise. He was the solid working grounds. Yes, in a sense, but not entirely. Cause you would need to be talking about a historically winning franchise to make that comparison. One like the Celtics or Lakers. It's like Kareem having to live up to what Wilt had done. Bird having to live up to what Russell had accomplished. But the Nets have been historically bad. So to say Jason had to live up to the reputation of Barry or whoever, is inaccurate. If it was after Barry left, yes, it would be. So Jason adopted a team with lots of injuries and losses and turn them around. Gave them the best record, took them to the Finals and ECF championship. So yes, he does get a nod for more importance than Barry.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Iam not taking anyting away from kidd but you are acting like its the best thing ever done in the NBA. </div>

I think it's the best thing done for the Nets since Dr. J.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">That isnt a hypothetical situation, its pretty much as fact, opinion for me. You can agree or disagree. I wasnt asing you to agree,just stating my opinion.
</div>

Barry apparently did have a team well enough to make the Finals. I could make it that the teams in the past wouldn't last in today's NBA, but I'm not going to do that. Either way, I just think you know what I meant (not the first time) and I'll leave it at that.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">You keep making that statement about the water-down east,you must know its the truth too</div>

All throughout this arguement you're the one saying "watered-down east" and I'm just refuting that it doesn't matter.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">I wasnt slinging any nasty accusations at you. The first thing you said everytime I talk about K-Mart & Buck, was how much they didnt have post moves. And my point is you can still be great at being a bigbody without being go to post player so to speak. Dennis Rodman is a legend type player based on hs scrappiness,rebounding & defense. And he had no post moves what so ever.</div>

Dennis Rodman had individual accollades that Kmart and Buck never did. He was a rebounding leader and all first defensive team. He was a DPOY player for years. Just changed the game without scoring. Kmart and Buck are not near that level. Buck was a good rebounder and solid role player. Kmart is a good rebounder and solid role player. But neither are really stars. And the only thing you should get out of me is that Kmart doesnt deserve a max contract. Plain and simple.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">So to say someone isntgreat because all he does is the scrappy work is un fair imo. </div>

I never said that. I said that Kmart doesn't deserve a max contract. I said Buck was a solid player, but didn't lead the Nets as much as Jason Kidd has.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Once again players nowadays are getting paid on what they may do in the future. I mean do you think based on Erick Dampier's career so far he is worth 8-10 mill per? Well that is what type of contract he is expecting to recieve on the free agent market this year.
</div>

Yes, but will Dampier be worth it? Doesn't really matter cause Kmart's already gotten a 10 million dollar deal from the Nets. He turned it down. And Dampier is a big center and those lack these days which is why his market value has gone up.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">How can you tell if K-Mart is a max big or not if he hasnt reached his full potenial.</div>

You tell me that Kmart in the future is gonna reach the level of Charles Barkley, Shawn Kemp (days with Seattle) Karl Malone, KG, Tim Duncan. Hell, tell me if he'll reach the level of Jermaine O'Neal, Dirk. Those are max-contract players. I can't see Kmart surpassing them.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Thats my point it did effect his on court play. When Darryl Dawkins was on Mike & the Mad dog promoting his book, he said out his own mouth that his off-court life style effect him not reaching his full potienial as a player. So if his off-court lifestyle is affecting him not reaching his full potenial then its is affecting his on-court game. And the success of the team. Leaders dont do that point blank. Wilt & Magic may have been permiscuous, but I never heard them admit to doing drugs. He admitted he did drugs with Micheal Ray Richardson when they were on the Nets together in 83'-86'. But thats the leader right.
</div>

It's a known fact that Dawkins had wasted his career. But he was still pretty damn good for doing it half assed. No, he never reached full potential, but that didn't keep him from being a very damn good player. Sheed never reached full potential but he's a damn good player. In either way, it was Dawkins scoring the points for the Nets and it was Dawkins teams focused on. They never focused on stopping Buck.

Buck's place in Nets history was a solid draft pick for a player that remained with the NEts for a long time. Moreover he was a solid player for the Nets for a long time and helped out. But to say that he did more than Kidd is not true.

Buck is like Kittles. Solid player, very loyal to the franchise. If Kittles comes back to the Nets or even stays with the Nets till he retires, his jersey will be retired with the Nets. He was loyal, solid, no complaining player. But he wasn't a great by any means.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Where did I say kidd wast a Nets legend? post the paragraph.
</div>

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">before we start over crowning his accomplishments win comparing him to other Nets legends.</div>

If we can't compare Kidd to Barry and Buck williams then he might as well not be a NJ legend. This franchise doesn't have many great players so that if Kidd took them to finals its a crowning achievement.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">I didnt say it wasn great but you said it all in your 1st paragraph When we faced a really good team we got shut down in 6, so the 10 wins vs the east is pretty pointless. I mean we had 14 wins in a row vs the east if you incude this years 1st round sweep of the Nets.But once again once we faced a legit team we went down.</div>

Pointless? 14 east wins is pointless? Every year the Nets are underrated. I can't tell you how many people on ESPN or who ever said the Nets weren't going to win anything. Last year they said Detroit will beat us in 6. Didn't happen. They said New Orleans was gonna make it to the top and take out the Nets. didn't happen. This year the Knicks were gonna take us out the first round. Didn't happen. The Pistons were gonna sweep us. Didn't happen and it turned out that we came the closest to beating them. This Nets squad is resilient and turn the odds around. And the biggest reason is that Jason Kidd is a leader and a winner. Kmart and RJ contributed big but not as big as Jason. This is why I rate him so high in Nets history.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">If Kidd was superman like you try to act like he is then the Nets would have beat oneof the truely legit teams we faced over our three year kidd era.</div>

Distorting what I say is your biggest problem. I don't think Kidd is superman, just a person that has earned his respect. A person that has done more to this franchise than a young athletic powerforward. Someone who has earned his place as one of the greatest Nets to play.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes Jason Kidd has accomplished mor but that doesnt make him more important is my point.</div>

Apparently bold, underlined and italic statements don't register. Read my paragraph again and notice this <u>Not more important, just more achievements </u> . What Jason Kidd is accomplish more than Buck or Barry and took them higher than either or any Net since Dr. J. It's not more important but more accomplished.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">People respect the Nets because K-Mart is one of the most fearless players down low in the NBA. </div>

That's why Desmond Mason said he's willing to fight KMart? Thats why Tim Thomas said he's not scared and that's he's fugazy? Last season Kmart was thrown down by Ben Wallace. Martin got up angry and when he found out it was Ben he walked away. He's not feared. Fear is a bad word. I think only few players in this league can be claimed as feared. Actually, the only person I can think of is Shaq. Kmart's a unique guy and a developing player, but not's feared.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">People respect the Nets because RJ is slowly but surely becoming one of the best wing players in the league.</div>

Yes, I agree.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">people dont just respect the Nets because of kidd.</div>

Agreed but I would say respect came because of what Jason has done with the Nets.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Kidd has turned the Nets aroud yes, Bu the NBA knows he has had help doing so from the players to the coaching staff. And thats why they respect the Nets.</div>

Of course. But credit is usually given to the leader. And who was that? Kidd.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">ut how are you trying to say that you are not impying kidd made us, whenyou keep saying kidd put us on the map. We were already their,
Dr. J put us on the map about 30 years ago.</div>

Then we fell off the map. We were destitute. Players came to the Nets to end their careers. Jason redefined and put us back on the map.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">I dont like kidd? far from the truth, whenI 1st came to this site in oct. I listed him as one of my fav current Nets. when there was that thread about "building the your Nets historic team",he was on it. I had Jason Kidd in my sig for months. Every discussion about kidd on or off this site I give my respect to kidd. But I also put the kidd-era into truthful context.
</div>

Perhaps but that's not what I see.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">And I never said I dont him hear, that would be dumb. </div>

What?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">All I said was if the Netshave to cut cost & chose between Martin or Kidd to focus the team around. Then I want the team to be focused around the younger Martin.</div>

I don't want to get into this with you again but you know my position.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">If te Nets can keep all three of the big 3 then that would be thegrest thingimo. But I dont see it happening based on the Daily News & Espn reports. If ou take that as me not likingKidd then I dnt know what can I say except yu totally have the wrong picture of my point.
</div>

Ugh it was a pain reading that.

Either way, I think it's misplaced for either of us to argue about Nets history. Apparently we were both wrong about Barry's history with the Nets. So either of us can't argue what happened or what he did. We can go by accomplishments and while you might think they match each other, Kidd still accomplish a bit more. Moreover, you were very young when Buck came to the franchise so its different what happened then. you'd have to watch a lot of tapes to be able to judge what you know. I've been around when Buck, DC, Drazen, Kenny, Mookie were all here. And NOTHING, NOTHING is like what I've seen Jason Kidd do.
 
Looks like we won't agree on certain points. Just a disclaimer. He's CLOSE to being a max player. He'll be a max player in 2-3 years. Maybe even next year. So are you going to let him walk and have a team sign him for max and reap the benefits in 2-3 years? There are bad investments and good investments. I believe that KMart is a good one based on what he's currently showing and the things that he WOULD be. That fact alone makes him WORTH THE MAX.
 
2-3 years he'll be close to 30 years old, where Kidd is now. And you say Kidd is over the hill and on the decline. So once Martin reaches his peak he'll start his decline fast. I don't get it.
 
How can you say that he'll be on the decline when he's 30 years old? So everyone who reaches 30 will be on the decline? I don't get it as well.
 
I was trying to relate it to what you're saying about Kidd. Kidd is 31 and you're saying he's declining. So in the same case how can you say Kmart will continue to improve at 30 when you think Kidd won't? That's all I'm trying to get at. Kidd and Kmart are both players that keep him tip top condition so that's what I'm saying.
 
Kidd is going to have surgery this off-season. He's being slowed down with age and injuries. Besides, KMart still has 3-4 years even if he reaches 30. So even if he starts to decline, you had 3-4 good years from him. But I think he'll reach his peak when he's 32 years old. But that's just me.
 
^ Don't say that.
smile.gif
 
I'm not going to argue about this anymore. The future is unpredictable and unstable for me to call anything out. But I do still call that if Kmart gets his max contract, he'll won't live up to it. He doesn't have to the tool set. He'll be a damn good player, but not a great one. I hope he surprises me but I really don't think he'll ever surpass Jason Kidd as a Net, let alone Jason Kidd as a player.
 
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