Roy Stepping Up Could End Up Being Key

[ABM]

I know it's only been two games, but ever since Roy "went ballistic" on the team, it appears they've played with a sense of purpose, hustle, and unity....and it's shown on the scoreboard.

We just may end up looking back on that event as a watershed moment.

 

[tlongII]

It was kind of expected imo. B-Roy is our leader and that's what leaders do.

 

[ABM]

It was kind of expected imo. B-Roy is our leader and that's what leaders do.

expectations ------> reality

This team is continuing to grow the "right" way.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Yep. All this "big three" stuff is just words. This is Roy's team...and we will go as far as he can lead us.

Both he and the team need to firmly understand that.

 

[toutlaw25]

Agreed. But it was just as big that Roy picked up his own game (especially on defense) where he has been slacking ass this year (mostly because of carrying the offensive load). Now that he's showing a comittment on both ends of the court, I think it's rubbing off on the rest of the team.

 

[STOMP]

Yep. All this "big three" stuff is just words. This is Roy's team...and we will go as far as he can lead us.

Both he and the team need to firmly understand that.

meh... speaking of just words. Brandon doesn't lead jack shit without LA playing like the stud he is. Both of them need to play to their abilities (and lead) for them to go anywhere. You've turned up your nose to Greg's contributions all year, but it is obvious to many here that he's one of their top talents and they play much better with him then without. His status as one of the Big 3 has always been on how he projects and is certainly not applicable when he's dinged up and missing games.

I'm glad Brandon seems extra focused as of late as they need him at the top of his game if they're to advance, but this team has a lot of important pieces. He's the focus/point of their offensive attack and everyone plays off of him, but it's not like other players haven't been picking him up on the other end all year as well. His D has not been good so he has only so much room to point fingers. I'm sure if he's calling guys out, dude is being shown a mirror.

STOMP

 

[maxiep]

In two years, Greg Oden will be the final word on this team's defense.

 

[ABM]

I'm glad Brandon seems extra focused as of late as they need him at the top of his game if they're to advance, but this team has a lot of important pieces.

Don't kid yourself. This is Roy's team, both, on and off the court. His leadership is much, much more than simply what takes place on the court.

As an aside, I heard Scott Hastings on Courtside last night. He said that, in the past number of seasons, Denver had been a one 'n done team. The term "championship" was a by-word, wasn't even part of the Nuggets' vocabulary. That is, until Chauncey Billups showed up. Why? Because they hadn't had anyone on their team willing to step up, demand (yes, demand) much more, then put the other guys on their back and lead. Subsequently, there's a veritable night & day difference between how the Nuggets played before he arived......and now. Same team, one guy. You do the math.

Brandon's doing the same here. You can talk Big 3 all day long. However, in reality, it's Big 1 and the sidekick(s). For this season, at least. This team will go as far as Brandon takes them. I'm liking what I'm seeing recently, though.

 

[crandc]

In fact, if you look at teams that win championships, they all have a player, who may or may not also be the team's best player, who is not afraid to get on the other guys' cases when needed. Theoretically that should be a coach's job, but sometimes it takes a peer. Roy being willing to do that is part of his development, remember, he's just in his 3rd year.

This does not mean the team does not need the talents of Aldridge, Oden, et al. They do. But talent without leadership does not win titles.

If there was a do-over, any doubt who the #1 pick in that year's draft would be?

 

[STOMP]

Don't kid yourself. This is Roy's team, both, on and off the court. His leadership is much, much more than simply what takes place on the court.

right... I'm the one kidding myself when you're imaging what the team dynamic is on and off the court

STOMP

 

[ABM]

right... I'm the one kidding myself when you're imaging what the team dynamic is on and off the court

STOMP

Not imagining at all.

 

[STOMP]

Not imagining at all.

sure you are. How many team meetings have you sat in on? How about practices?

If you want to play pretend, thats fine for you, but don't expect me to join you in imaginary land

STOMP

 

[ABM]

sure you are. How many team meetings have you sat in on? How about practices?

You're right about that. None.

Essentially, I've come to my conclusions on the matter based upon what I've heard and read during the time Roy has been with the team. Sure, you can't always believe everything that comes your way, but when you hear/read the same thing over and over again.....it kind of just sinks in via osmosis, I suppose.

As an example, here's one piece on Roy I had read awhile back....

http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/2008/12/roys_leadership_is_like_his_ga.html

 

[Nikolokolus]

In fact, if you look at teams that win championships, they all have a player, who may or may not also be the team's best player, who is not afraid to get on the other guys' cases when needed. Theoretically that should be a coach's job, but sometimes it takes a peer. Roy being willing to do that is part of his development, remember, he's just in his 3rd year.

This does not mean the team does not need the talents of Aldridge, Oden, et al. They do. But talent without leadership does not win titles.

If there was a do-over, any doubt who the #1 pick in that year's draft would be?

I disagree with the part I bolded. There's a list a mile long of coaches who have lost their jobs after their players tuned them out. The reality in the NBA game, with its guaranteed contracts, is that it's far easier to fire a coach than move a 'trouble' player, which is why you absolutely need bona fide player leaders; guys who have credibility, but also that peer bond, which can't exist in the inherently unequal relationship between player and coach.

But, yes Roy being willing to step up and be this guy who sets the tone and is willing to get in the grill of teammates and having the game to back it up is absolutely critical to the success of this team. KP getting Roy may end up being a bigger coup than landing Oden.

 

[blazerboy30]

sure you are. How many team meetings have you sat in on? How about practices?

If you want to play pretend, thats fine for you, but don't expect me to join you in imaginary land

STOMP

You might want to examine your own argument.

meh... speaking of just words. Brandon doesn't lead jack shit without LA playing like the stud he is. Both of them need to play to their abilities (and lead) for them to go anywhere. You've turned up your nose to Greg's contributions all year,but it is obvious to many here that he's one of their top talents and they play much better with him then without.

Greg is a potential great talent. But to say that it is "obvious" that the team plays better with Greg than without is not based on any fact or truth. During the SA game, it was stated that we are 13-6 when Greg plays 6 minutes or less. Assuming that is true, we are now 14-6 when Greg plays 6 minutes or less. So, the Blazers are playing .700 ball WITHOUT Greg, and 0.589 ball WITH Greg. (I'll assume 6 minutes is little enough to call that "without" Greg)

I'm as big of a fan of Greg's as anybody, but it isn't "obvious" that the Blazers are better with him playing significant minutes (at this point of his career).

 

[Jayps15]

You might want to examine your own argument.



Greg is a potential great talent. But to say that it is "obvious" that the team plays better with Greg than without is not based on any fact or truth. During the SA game, it was stated that we are 13-6 when Greg plays 6 minutes or less. Assuming that is true, we are now 14-6 when Greg plays 6 minutes or less. So, the Blazers are playing .700 ball WITHOUT Greg, and 0.589 ball WITH Greg. (I'll assume 6 minutes is little enough to call that "without" Greg)

I'm as big of a fan of Greg's as anybody, but it isn't "obvious" that the Blazers are better with him playing significant minutes (at this point of his career).

The Blazers are also 14-6 with Greg playing 25 minutes or more, so their playing .700 ball with Greg playing more than half the game, and .589 when he plays 24 minutes or fewer.

 

[blazerboy30]

The Blazers are also 14-6 with Greg playing 25 minutes or more, so their playing .700 ball with Greg playing more than half the game, and .589 when he plays 24 minutes or fewer.

Cool. I didn't pull that stat, but it is good to know.

My point is that it isn't "obvious".


PS. Without going back and looking, it seems like Oden has been able to stay in the game more against the worse teams - read: teams that we would have beat anyway. Admittedly, that is a total guess on my part.

 

[Jayps15]

Cool. I didn't pull that stat, but it is good to know.

My point is that it isn't "obvious".

I don't think there's any one statistic that would make it obvious, but I think as knowledgeable fans we can all realize that when Oden is ON he brings something this team otherwise lacks and that that something is part of a winning formula. With Oden we're a dominant rebounding team, without him we go long stretches with guys like LMA/Frye/TO as our primary rebounders. He scores with great efficiency down in the paint and draws a ton of fouls, making our offense a more versatile and effective attack. He alters shots on defense, either banging with his own man down low on the blocks and forcing tough shots or by intimidating drivers.

With all those things combined I think there's at least a few games this year where you can point to a specific stretch from Oden that kept us in the game, or energized his teammates, that helped lead this team to a win. On the other hand I can't really recall any game that Oden was a major factor in us losing the game. Alot of that is due to him not being given the responsibility, and having missed significant stretches with injury, but overall I believe he's been a very positive influence on the teams play.

 

[Minstrel]

My point is that it isn't "obvious".

Not objectively obvious, but it can be subjectively obvious. That is, obvious to the person in question. I don't think that's an unreasonable use of the word. To many, it's obvious that Sergio Rodriguez hurts the team most of the time he plays, but it's not a universal sentiment or provable beyond any shadow of a doubt.

 

[blazerboy30]

Not objectively obvious, but it can be subjectively obvious. That is, obvious to the person in question. I don't think that's an unreasonable use of the word. To many, it's obvious that Sergio Rodriguez hurts the team most of the time he plays, but it's not a universal sentiment or provable beyond any shadow of a doubt.

I would have agreed with the statement if it had been said that Oden obviously makes a difference on the offensive side. But, I have a hard time with the statement that it is subjectively obvious that we play better with Oden. I think it is "subjectively obvious" that Joel is better for our team on the defensive end. I guess it would be up for a debate as to which side is more useful to us right now. IMO, Joel's advantage on the defensive end is enough to make it not "obvious", either objectively or subjectively, who makes us better.

 

[blazerboy30]

I don't think there's any one statistic that would make it obvious, but I think as knowledgeable fans we can all realize that when Oden is ON he brings something this team otherwise lacks and that that something is part of a winning formula. With Oden we're a dominant rebounding team, without him we go long stretches with guys like LMA/Frye/TO as our primary rebounders. He scores with great efficiency down in the paint and draws a ton of fouls, making our offense a more versatile and effective attack. He alters shots on defense, either banging with his own man down low on the blocks and forcing tough shots or by intimidating drivers.

With all those things combined I think there's at least a few games this year where you can point to a specific stretch from Oden that kept us in the game, or energized his teammates, that helped lead this team to a win. On the other hand I can't really recall any game that Oden was a major factor in us losing the game. Alot of that is due to him not being given the responsibility, and having missed significant stretches with injury, but overall I believe he's been a very positive influence on the teams play.

Well, clearly "when Oden is on, he brings something this teams otherwise lacks". But that can be said about most players. The point is that Oden hasn't been "on" for enough samples to make it "obvious" that we are better with him, in general. I'll agree, though, that we are obviously better when Greg is "on". (but I can say that about almost everybody on the team)

 

[Minstrel]

I would have agreed with the statement if it had been said that Oden obviously makes a difference on the offensive side. But, I have a hard time with the statement that it is subjectively obvious that we play better with Oden. I think it is "subjectively obvious" that Joel is better for our team on the defensive end. I guess it would be up for a debate as to which side is more useful to us right now. IMO, Joel's advantage on the defensive end is enough to make it not "obvious", either objectively or subjectively, who makes us better.

I don't think the team suffers much of a drop-off on defense, or in terms of rebounding, when Oden is in versus Przybilla...with one important caveat: fouls. Fouls, beyond limiting Oden's time on the floor, are damaging. And Oden is certainly worse than Przybilla in that respect. Beyond that, though, I think Oden is a slightly worse individual defender but a better team defender (I think he closes off the lane to opposing slashers better). Przybilla is a slightly better rebounder, but both are elite.

So Przybilla may have the very slight edge in terms of defense/rebounding, but Oden has a massive edge on the offensive end, IMO. Oden draws double-teams quite a bit, while Przybilla doesn't. Both are high-percentage scorers, but Przybilla's scoring comes almost exclusively from put-backs or broken plays. While Oden gets a fair number of put-back baskets, he's much better able to create his own offense. Oden is just a much bigger offensive presence, and I don't think the gap between the two players on defense is anywhere near as big.

So, I think Oden is a better player than Przybilla. But consider that Oden doesn't replace Pryzbilla...he takes minutes away from Frye/Randolph, largely (and maybe a few from Outlaw). So, the question is really Oden versus Frye/Randolph, when comparing the team with and without Oden. And Oden is so much better than Frye/Randolph that it's very obvious (to me) that Portland is a much stronger team with Oden, even if it is arguable as to whether Oden is superior to Przybilla.

 

[blazerboy30]

I don't think the team suffers much of a drop-off on defense, or in terms of rebounding, when Oden is in versus Przybilla...with one important caveat: fouls. Fouls, beyond limiting Oden's time on the floor, are damaging. And Oden is certainly worse than Przybilla in that respect. Beyond that, though, I think Oden is a slightly worse individual defender but a better team defender (I think he closes off the lane to opposing slashers better). Przybilla is a slightly better rebounder, but both are elite.

So Przybilla may have the very slight edge in terms of defense/rebounding, but Oden has a massive edge on the offensive end, IMO. Oden draws double-teams quite a bit, while Przybilla doesn't. Both are high-percentage scorers, but Przybilla's scoring comes almost exclusively from put-backs or broken plays. While Oden gets a fair number of put-back baskets, he's much better able to create his own offense. Oden is just a much bigger offensive presence, and I don't think the gap between the two players on defense is anywhere near as big.

So, I think Oden is a better player than Przybilla. But consider that Oden doesn't replace Pryzbilla...he takes minutes away from Frye/Randolph, largely (and maybe a few from Outlaw). So, the question is really Oden versus Frye/Randolph, when comparing the team with and without Oden. And Oden is so much better than Frye/Randolph that it's very obvious (to me) that Portland is a much stronger team with Oden, even if it is arguable as to whether Oden is superior to Przybilla.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here. I do think you are understating Joel's defense by quite a bit. I think a great example of this was Joel's defense on Duncan. Joel did an excellent job on TD, but I think TD would have eaten Oden alive.

However, the fact is that Oden still hasn't been able to consistently stay out of foul trouble. Which, I think, is why the wins/loss stat doesn't show that we are "obviously" a better team with Oden not being injured.

When (not if) Oden reduces the fouling, there will be absolutely no argument from me that we are better with Oden. Oden is clearly a better player (when not in foul trouble) than Joel. We just don't get to see it very often.

 

[Minstrel]

When (not if) Oden reduces the fouling, there will be absolutely no argument from me that we are better with Oden.

But since we get both Oden AND Przybilla...don't you think the team is better with Oden than without? Unless you feel Oden hurts the team, isn't it better to have both centers rather than just one?

That's what I meant. It's arguable which of the two is better...but I think Oden is without a doubt better than Frye, the player who gets minutes in Oden's absence.

 

[PapaG]

Here I hoped to be involved in a conversation about the team's two-time All-Star, and instead it's another chapter in the (short) story of the Blazers' own version of the Invisible Man.

Anyhow, Roy is acting how Rasheed Wallace should have been acting IMO when he was in Portland. The Blazers are very lucky to have a player with the combination of such talent and leadership at the head of this young and exciting team.

 

[blazerboy30]

But since we get both Oden AND Przybilla...don't you think the team is better with Oden than without? Unless you feel Oden hurts the team, isn't it better to have both centers rather than just one?

That's what I meant. It's arguable which of the two is better...but I think Oden is without a doubt better than Frye, the player who gets minutes in Oden's absence.

My gut tells me that Oden doesn't "hurt" the team, and that he does indeed make the team better.

But our record doesn't necessarily prove that or back it up. I would need to see / do more analysis to convince myself that he really has helped the team play better.

That's what I mean when I say it isn't obvious.

 

[STOMP]

You might want to examine your own argument.

Greg is a potential great talent. But to say that it is "obvious" that the team plays better with Greg than without is not based on any fact or truth. During the SA game, it was stated that we are 13-6 when Greg plays 6 minutes or less. Assuming that is true, we are now 14-6 when Greg plays 6 minutes or less. So, the Blazers are playing .700 ball WITHOUT Greg, and 0.589 ball WITH Greg. (I'll assume 6 minutes is little enough to call that "without" Greg)

I'm as big of a fan of Greg's as anybody, but it isn't "obvious" that the Blazers are better with him playing significant minutes (at this point of his career).

you might want to comprehend what I wrote instead of just what you bolded. When I said obvious to many here that leaves out the fraction of the fanbase that doesn't agree... Fez and Co. I (and others) disagree with them, but they do exist.

Thanks to Jayps15 for shooting down the ridiculous "not based on any fact or truth" stuff. Here's some additional fun facts plus opinions to consider... The 15.2 Boards per 48 minutes Greg is averaging doesn't suck. I'm a big proponent of Bigs who can defend the paint and control the boards... having the Gregzilla tag-team available allows both to be aggressive and send a few messages... it also allows LA to leak out on the break and run his man ragged. Drawing fouls on your opponents is another good way to help the team win. Besides scoring points from the FT line, most teams lack the frontline depth that the PTBs enjoy. Greg goes to the line a whopping 12.5 times per 48 minutes... for reference Roy gets to the stripe 8.1 times and Joel 4.0 times per 48.

Tell me Greg's effect on the game isn't significant all you want, I'm sticking by what I wrote.

STOMP

 

[blazerboy30]

you might want to comprehend what I wrote instead of just what you bolded.

dude, take some deep breaths before your panties get into a tighter knot. It's only a chat room.

Thanks to Jayps15 for shooting down the ridiculous "not based on any fact or truth" stuff. Here's some additional fun facts plus opinions to consider... The 15.2 Boards per 48 minutes Greg is averaging doesn't suck. I'm a big proponent of Bigs who can defend the paint and control the boards... having the Gregzilla tag-team available allows both to be aggressive and send a few messages... it also allows LA to leak out on the break and run his man ragged. Drawing fouls on your opponents is another good way to help the team win. Besides scoring points from the FT line, most teams lack the frontline depth that the PTBs enjoy. Greg goes to the line a whopping 12.5 times per 48 minutes... for reference Roy gets to the stripe 8.1 times and Joel 4.0 times per 48.

That was a nice little rambling session about something unrelated to the original statement that we are questioning. Go ahead and post your observations, and stick to what you wrote. It doesn't have much to with with your original assertion. I never said that Joel was a better player than Greg, but thanks for the irrelevant individual stats comparison.

Your assertion was that the team plays better when Oden is available, NOT, "Greg is a better player than Joel". The team being better is measured by wins / losses, not trips to the foul line, not rebounding rate, not the ability of LA to leak out on the break, etc. Wins and losses.

I posted a stat directly related to wins / losses. Jayps posted another stat directly related to wins losses. Both are valid, which means, that your original statement of "the team is better with Oden" is not obvious.

Tell me Greg's effect on the game isn't significant all you want, I'm sticking by what I wrote.

STOMP

Why would I tell you that? Why are you building a strawman? I said it isn't obvious that Greg makes the team better. I didn't say Greg's effect on the game isn't significant.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Wow. The list of subjects some posters object to is getting longer every day.

Don't talk about injuries. (unless you are an MD)
Don't talk about team dynamics. (unless you attend team meetings)
Don't be critical of Oden.
Don't compliment Roy.

Cripes folks! This is an internet *discussion* board.

 

[PapaG]

Wow. The list of subjects some posters object to is getting longer every day.

Don't talk about injuries. (unless you are an MD)
Don't talk about team dynamics. (unless you attend team meetings)
Don't be critical of Oden.
Don't compliment Roy.

Cripes folks! This is an internet *discussion* board.

Don't defend Outlaw against criticism.