OT Should Venezuela invade its oil-rich neighbor? Maduro will put it to a vote Sunday

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SlyPokerDog

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Venezuelans going to the polls Sunday will be asked to answer an unusually provocative question:

Should their government be given a blank check to invade neighboring Guyana, and wrest away three-quarters of its oil-rich territory?

The government of Nicolás Maduro is putting the query before voters, part of a century-old territorial dispute between Venezuela and Guyana that is raising tensions in the region and threatening to escalate into a shooting war.

The question will be on the ballot in a five-part referendum that, among other things, would grant Maduro special powers to invade Guyana and create a new Venezuelan state encompassing 74% of English-speaking Guyana’s current landmass. The new area would be called Guayana Esequiba.

Some experts see the whole thing as a political ploy, though many Guyanese see the threat as real and fear, among other things, the loss of their citizenship.

“Clearly Maduro has domestic constituencies in mind, but I think when you weigh the number of negatives of annexation, Maduro would be crazy to risk all of those negatives to take 74% of Guyana,” said Ivelaw Griffith, a senior associate with the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington and a former vice chancellor of the University of Guyana, who is a security expert in the region. “That’s not a small hunk of land.”

The growing tensions became evident this week when Brazil — a close ally of both nations that shares its border with both — sent top foreign advisor Celso Amorin to mediate while announcing that it was increasing its military presence along its northern border amid fears that the long-standing dispute could turn into a war.

“The Ministry of Defense has been monitoring the situation. Defensive actions have been intensified in the northern border region of the country, promoting a greater military presence,” Brazil’s defense ministry said in a statement.

The border dispute between Guyana and Venezuela stretches back to the second half of the 19th century, and escalated after Guyana began discovering oil on its territory a few years ago. Venezuela claims ownership of about 61,600 square miles of Guyana — a chunk of land slightly smaller than the state of Florida called the Essequibo — tracing its possession to the time both countries were European colonies. Although Venezuela has unceasingly contested an 1899 ruling made by international arbitrators that established the current borders between the two countries, it had allowed the issue to remain on the back burner for decades.

The border dispute is currently before the United Nations’ International Court of Justice. Guyana has asked the court to rule the 1899 decision valid and binding. In November, Guyana again went before the court, this time asking it to halt parts of Venezuela’s five-part referendum.

“We’ve asked them to indicate that it is illegal for Venezuela to proceed with the referendum in its current form,” said Carl Greenidge, a former Guyanese foreign minister who has been representing Guyana in the long-running dispute.

Guyana’s government wants the international court to look at the questions on the referendum as well as the comments made by Maduro’s regime, including its National Electorate Council.

“The questions, as formulated, can be seen or interpreted as intended to give Venezuela a blueprint, or endorsement for taking action,” Greenidge said, describing the whole move by his Spanish-speaking neighbor as “completely absurd.”

Greenidge says his country hopes to have a decision from the court on Friday about the referendum.

Experts said that Maduro’s efforts to fan the flames of nationalism are an attempt to boost his faltering popularity that could easily get out of hand and create a situation where he is forced to use the powers he is invoking.

“The government is caught in a trap of its own making,” said Rocio San Miguel, president of Control Ciudadano, an organization that monitors Venezuela’s armed forces. A yes vote on the referendum may provoke public demand that Maduro act to take over the disputed territory, she said.

The regime has already launched an aggressive propaganda campaign over the news outlets it controls, with TV and radio stations every few minutes broadcasting jingles promoting one constant message: “The Essequibo is ours.”

While there is widespread mistrust about the Caracas regime’s ability to hold fair elections in Venezuela, an overwhelming yes vote is expected, given that even Maduro’s opponents have either refrained from criticizing the referendum or have actually supported it.

Guyana’s government says the border claims are baseless and have warned Maduro to not underestimate the country’s right to defend itself. The government also said that the referendum would usurp the jurisdiction of the international court before it has had a chance to rule on Guyana’s claim of sovereignty over the territory.

On Wednesday, Ashni Singh, senior minister in the Office of the President, described Venezuela’s threat “as provocation.”

“We reject it fulsomely, and we stand in firm solidarity in defense of our country,” he said.

Greenidge said he is not aware of any other case in which a country has held a similar referendum. If the referendum were to pass, it entitles Venezuela “to change the status of Guyanese, the rights of Guyanese, the assets of Guyanese, the resources of Guyana,” he said.

Both he and Griffith said the Essequibo area, which has more than 230,000 residents, has no historical connection to Venezuela.

“It is a territory with a significant number of people. It is a third of our population,” Greenidge said. “It isn’t a barren or empty region without people. And the people there have no links of consequence to Venezuela. It is not a place where you will find Spanish speakers, where you will find a Spanish footprint in the way that you will find a Dutch footprint in Guyana or even a French footprint in Guyana.”

Experts say an armed conflict with Guyana, which shoulders the north coast of South America, would lead to greater international isolation for Maduro, given that Guyana is a member of CARICOM, the 15-member Caribbean trade bloc whose support has been essential for Caracas in international forums such as the U.N. and the Organization of American States.

Maduro “has no real intention of going to war with [Guyana] because doing so means greater isolation and more international problems than the ones he already has,” said Antonio De La Cruz, executive director of the Inter American Trends think tank in Washington.

CARICOM has not been as forceful in its objections as in years past, a sign some observers say of the divisions that exist within the bloc, although in a press release last month the group said Venezuelan threats to stop Guyana from developing Essequibo’s natural resources is “contrary to international law.”

Washington has also been sending signals of its objections, leading Griffith to believe that even if the vote were to take place Sunday, little will come of it.

Griffith says Maduro ‘s gambit is meant to force Guyana to the negotiating table and give Venezuela a piece of the Essequibo.

Still, he admits that the potential for a forced annexation is creating fear, not just for the Guyanese but also for the country’s neighbors, some of whom base their own borders on the same 1899 arbitration decision.

That ruling “is the basis for the border between Brazil and Venezuela and Guyana, so if you can change that border, whether forcefully or not, it means you have to change the borders with Brazil and Venezuela,” he said. Brazil, he noted, has a border with every South American country with the exception of Chile and Ecuador, and “some of those countries are not happy” with their borders with Brazil.

“There are too many potential dominoes,” Griffith added. “Brazil cannot afford to allow that to happen, especially the forced aspect.”

The resolution to put the question to Venezuelan voters was approved in September by the Maduro-controlled National Assembly, which said it is intended to “allow the Venezuelan people to express their views on a significant territorial dispute.”

The resolution came after Maduro’s opposition was able to successfully organize a primary vote on its own, without the support of the National Electorate Council, which showed large support for opposition leader María Corina Machado for the country’s presidency in elections to be held next year.

De La Cruz said Maduro’s primary goal in organizing the referendum was to show inside Venezuela that the regime can still harness massive support in an election.

San Miguel said that Maduro’s saber-rattling follows a long tradition in Latin America where governments fan the flames of nationalism to gather political support. But he warned that this has led to war in the past, such as the 100-hour conflict in 1969 between Honduras and El Salvador, which was dubbed “The Football War” because it happened at the same time as qualifying games for the 1970 soccer World Cup..

“I believe Maduro has entered a dead-end street and he may be forced to go to war, a 100-hour war... like the Football War,” San Miguel said.

https://news.yahoo.com/venezuela-invade-oil-rich-neighbor-103000883.html
 
Thats crazy. If we did something like that on a national level i think it would be the first real spark in a civil war.
Lets find out. Canada has alot of oil. Lets vote to see if we should invade to release our dependency of overseas oil.
Lol. Crazy!
 
I’m in favor of Maduro’s plan. Venezuela is rich in petroleum, natural gas, iron ore, gold, bauxite, other minerals, hydropower, and diamonds. If they take over Guyana’s oil reserves, then anytime we want any of that stuff, we only have to invade one country, not two.
 
They've done real well since socialist gov leaders ripped off & starved their people.

In the 1950s, Venezuela was the fourth wealthiest country in the world. Today, Venezuela is poorer than it was prior to the 1920s, its infrastructure is deteriorating, and its economy has been shrinking since the turn of the century. Hyperinflation (out of control price increases) has left the currency worthless and made it almost impossible for Venezuelans to afford basic necessities. Millions have fled the country’s inhospitable conditions. How did the country go from having a GDP on par with that of the United States, New Zealand, and Switzerland to having almost 90% of the population living in poverty?
 
I’m in favor of Maduro’s plan. Venezuela is rich in petroleum, natural gas, iron ore, gold, bauxite, other minerals, hydropower, and diamonds. If they take over Guyana’s oil reserves, then anytime we want any of that stuff, we only have to invade one country, not two.

Invade? Nah, we'll just send in the Jackals.
 
They've done real well since socialist gov leaders ripped off & starved their people.

In the 1950s, Venezuela was the fourth wealthiest country in the world. Today, Venezuela is poorer than it was prior to the 1920s, its infrastructure is deteriorating, and its economy has been shrinking since the turn of the century. Hyperinflation (out of control price increases) has left the currency worthless and made it almost impossible for Venezuelans to afford basic necessities. Millions have fled the country’s inhospitable conditions. How did the country go from having a GDP on par with that of the United States, New Zealand, and Switzerland to having almost 90% of the population living in poverty?

I'm guessing some reading this will not like the answer how V went from having one of highest standards of living, to one of the lowest.

A long list of exspensive social programs bankrupted the country

Sadly, everyone of these social programs are in Bernie Sanders plan.
 
Venezuela is rich in petroleum, natural gas, iron ore, gold, bauxite, other minerals, hydropower, and diamonds. If they take over Guyana’s oil reserves, then anytime we want any of that stuff, we only have to invade one country, not two.

I've been to Venezuela many times, one of the most beautiful places on earth. And you're right, their natural resources are insane.
 
Thats crazy. If we did something like that on a national level i think it would be the first real spark in a civil war.
Lets find out. Canada has alot of oil. Lets vote to see if we should invade to release our dependency of overseas oil.
Lol. Crazy!

I’m in favor of Maduro’s plan. Venezuela is rich in petroleum, natural gas, iron ore, gold, bauxite, other minerals, hydropower, and diamonds. If they take over Guyana’s oil reserves, then anytime we want any of that stuff, we only have to invade one country, not two.

Must think bigger.

Canada is much closer. Lets start with them first and then we can just take over central, then south America aNd merge it all into one Merica!
 
I'm guessing some reading this will not like the answer how V went from having one of highest standards of living, to one of the lowest.

A long list of exspensive social programs bankrupted the country

Sadly, everyone of these social programs are in Bernie Sanders plan.

I think it had more to do with corruption and incompetence than social programs.

Sadly, corruption and incompetence are in the Donald Trump plan.

barfo
 
I think it had more to do with corruption and incompetence than social programs.

Sadly, corruption and incompetence are in the Donald Trump plan.

barfo

No, it was the exspensive social programs that put them under. But, there is more to the story.

The plan to pay for all of the social programs worked, for a while. They set their spending spree on the huge income they had coming in, and when oil prices were at their highest.

When oil prices dropped, they went into debt, and never recovered. To pay off debt, they printed more money, which caused inflation. Similar to how our $trillion+ covid stimulus package printed money is causing our inflation problem now.
 
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No, it was the exspensive social programs that put them under. But, there is more to the story.

The plan to pay for all of the social programs worked, for a while. They set their spending spree on the huge income they had coming in, and when oil prices were at their highest.

When oil prices dropped, they went into debt, and never recovered. To pay off debt, they printed more money, which caused inflation. Similar to how our $trillion+ covid stimulus package printed money is causing our inflation problem now.

Not exactly accurate.

While oil prices are important, Venezuela's oil is a thick tar. Very different than the sweet golden crude that Suadi Arabia has. V's oil takes a ton of refining to make it into desirable products. US oil companies are very good at refining and had done that for decades in Venezuela. Hugo Chavez kicked out the American oil companies and started refining the oil themself. It was a disaster. Oil production dropped.

1686672903388.png


Then China stepped in and offered to refine the oil.

That too was a disaster.

Venezuela was left with broken equipment and no expertise on how to repair or refine it.

Now the US has eased some of the sanctions and while production is up, they are still fucking up.
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/29/1215547427/venezuela-oil-spill-maracaibo
Oil spills increase in Venezuela as it revs up output after the U.S. lifted sanctions

If they would have left US oil companies alone there would be enough oil produced and money coming in to pay for those social programs.

They have the largest oil reserves in the world.
 
No, it was the exspensive social programs that put them under. But, there is more to the story.

The plan to pay for all of the social programs worked, for a while. They set their spending spree on the huge income they had coming in, and when oil prices were at their highest.

When oil prices dropped, they went into debt, and never recovered. To pay off debt, they printed more money, which caused inflation. Similar to how our $trillion+ covid stimulus package printed money is causing our inflation problem now.
Didn't help that they tried to import nearly everything and relied on oil for 100% of their wealth.

Basically, it was corruption and incompetence.
 
Didn't help that they tried to import nearly everything and relied on oil for 100% of their wealth.

Basically, it was corruption and incompetence.

Many arab countries rely on or have relied on 100% of oil revenues for their wealth. If you have the oil, you have the demand for it. Venezuela has the largest reserves. Not ridiculous for them to rely on it.
 
No, it was the exspensive social programs that put them under. But, there is more to the story.

The plan to pay for all of the social programs worked, for a while. They set their spending spree on the huge income they had coming in, and when oil prices were at their highest.

That's incompetence. It wouldn't matter whether they had overspent on social programs, or on military power, or on Atari computers. It's the fact that they committed to spending money they couldn't rely on receiving that did them in. Incompetence.

When oil prices dropped, they went into dept, and never recovered. To pay off dept, they printed more money, which caused inflation. Similar to how our $trillion+ covid stimulus package printed money is causing our inflation problem now.

Not really similar at all, since ours was stimulus and not debt payments.

barfo
 
Many arab countries rely on or have relied on 100% of oil revenues for their wealth. If you have the oil, you have the demand for it. Venezuela has the largest reserves. Not ridiculous for them to rely on it.
It's nearly always inadvisable to put all of your eggs in one basket when you have the option to diversify. And Venezuela had everything it needed to diversify. Far more than desert countries, for sure.
 
No, it was the exspensive social programs that put them under. But, there is more to the story.

The plan to pay for all of the social programs worked, for a while. They set their spending spree on the huge income they had coming in, and when oil prices were at their highest.

When oil prices dropped, they went into debt, and never recovered. To pay off debt, they printed more money, which caused inflation. Similar to how our $trillion+ covid stimulus package printed money is causing our inflation problem now.
Plus the government owned the V industry and they too were corrupt and incompetent.
 
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Plus the government owned the V industry and they too were court and incompetent.
This is why governments shouldn't own industry. Government should regulate industry, but capitalism works pretty well to a point. As long as it's regulated for the benefit of the masses.
 
Not defending the decision to nationalize the oil companies, but I'm assuming the motivation to do so was that all the profits on drilling in Venezuela were going overseas, not into the local economy. Possibly there would have been a better solution (raise taxes on extraction?).

barfo
 
Not defending the decision to nationalize the oil companies, but I'm assuming the motivation to do so was that all the profits on drilling in Venezuela were going overseas, not into the local economy. Possibly there would have been a better solution (raise taxes on extraction?).

barfo
Kinda like Iran?
 
This would be a very dumb decision

We are gonna find out that amount of corruption in the Venezuelan government/military is at russia’s level
 
So the reasons Venezuela's economy went from one of the richest, to one of the worst, is because their politicians:

Spent money like they are Bernie Sanders
Reduced oil production and revenues like they are Joe Biden
And printed money like they are Donald Trump.

Therefore:
This makes the Venezuelan politicians incompetent and corrupt.

Which leads to the emotional conclusion that the USA politicians should:
spend more money on huge projects and social programs,
cut more oil production and revenues,
and print more money, because,

Just thinking about it makes people feel soooo gooood!
 
So the reasons Venezuela's economy went from one of the richest, to one of the worst, is because their politicians:

Spent money like they are Bernie Sanders
Reduced oil production and revenues like they are Joe Biden
And printed money like they are Donald Trump.

Therefore:
This makes the Venezuelan politicians incompetent and corrupt.

Which leads to the emotional conclusion that the USA politicians should:
spend more money on huge projects and social programs,
cut more oil production and revenues,
and print more money, because,

Just thinking about it makes people feel soooo gooood!
Is Norway just emotional too?
Seems like they might just be more competent and less corrupt...
 
Is Norway just emotional too?
Seems like they might just be more competent and less corrupt...

Not sure what your point is?

Does it have to do with Norway's slight decline in oil related revenues the last year or two?

If so, clink the link below. There is a chart part way down of the yearly oil related income. If I wanted to play games, and cherry pick dates. I could make the claim that oil revenues are now about 10 times higher than 2015.

Revenues go up and down by year. But take a look at when the huge increase happened. Norway could not afford their social programs without the oil renenues.

https://www.norskpetroleum.no/en/economy/governments-revenues/#taxes
 
Not sure what your point is?

Does it have to do with Norway's slight decline in oil related revenues the last year or two?

If so, clink the link below. There is a chart part way down of the yearly oil related income. If I wanted to play games, and cherry pick dates. I could make the claim that oil revenues are now about 10 times higher than 2015.

Revenues go up and down by year. But take a look at when the huge increase happened. Norway could not afford their social programs without the oil renenues.

https://www.norskpetroleum.no/en/economy/governments-revenues/#taxes
Of course revenues go up and down by year. And Norway has an over $1t ($1.477t) fund built up from that. Roughly $185k ($273k) per Norwegian.

Basically, in comparison, Venezuela's struggles appear to have been due to excessive corruption and/or incompetence rather than generous social programs. They could easily afford very generous social programs if they weren't regularly shooting themselves in the foot.

*EDIT* Updated dollar value of the Norway fund with more current info from @SlyPokerDog's post.
 
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Not sure what your point is?

Does it have to do with Norway's slight decline in oil related revenues the last year or two?

If so, clink the link below. There is a chart part way down of the yearly oil related income. If I wanted to play games, and cherry pick dates. I could make the claim that oil revenues are now about 10 times higher than 2015.

Revenues go up and down by year. But take a look at when the huge increase happened. Norway could not afford their social programs without the oil renenues.

https://www.norskpetroleum.no/en/economy/governments-revenues/#taxes
https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/norway-wealth-fund-posts-143-billion-h1-profit-2023-08-15/

https://www.nbim.no/

https://www.reuters.com/business/fi...ould-invest-70-bln-private-equity-2023-11-28/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway
 
So the reasons Venezuela's economy went from one of the richest, to one of the worst, is because their politicians:

Spent money like they are Bernie Sanders
Reduced oil production and revenues like they are Joe Biden
And printed money like they are Donald Trump.

Therefore:
This makes the Venezuelan politicians incompetent and corrupt.

Which leads to the emotional conclusion that the USA politicians should:
spend more money on huge projects and social programs,
cut more oil production and revenues,
and print more money, because,

Just thinking about it makes people feel soooo gooood!

Or, we could make emotional decisions about the USA based on inaccurate histories of what happened a half-century ago in a country that is not even remotely similar to ours.

barfo
 
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