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Did EVERY insurance company turn down that child, or just one? They can get insurance through another carrier. When the government controls health care, their decision will be final with no other options.
 
Did EVERY insurance company turn down that child, or just one? They can get insurance through another carrier. When the government controls health care, their decision will be final with no other options.

Having been turned down (luckily I hadn't cancelled my current insurer, who has warned me they would not re-insure us if we did) and knowing several people who are uninsured because they have been turned down I can attest that insurers act in concert, despite the probable illegality of such a monopolistic stance. If one turns you down, all will turn you down.

I was also informed by my insurer that since we changed to a much higher deductible when they nearly doubled our monthly, they will not allow us to change to a lower deductible ever in the future, even if we paid extra. We will never have more than catastrophic coverage ever again unless a public option is provided, despite the fact we are both in perfect health.
 
Having been turned down (luckily I hadn't cancelled my current insurer, who has warned me they would not re-insure us if we did) and knowing several people who are uninsured because they have been turned down I can attest that insurers act in concert, despite the probable illegality of such a monopolistic stance. If one turns you down, all will turn you down.

I was also informed by my insurer that since we changed to a much higher deductible when they nearly doubled our monthly, they will not allow us to change to a lower deductible ever in the future, even if we paid extra. We will never have more than catastrophic coverage ever again unless a public option is provided, despite the fact we are both in perfect health.

There are plenty of insurance companies out there. Their goals are clear: to charge you more for your insurance over the life of the policy than they pay out for your care. If they can make money off of you, they'll insure you. They won't act as a cartel.

I wonder why you have so much faith in the Federal Government? What will a political entity do for you a private company cannot?
 
Among the "pre-existing conditions" for which people have been turned down, frequently enough to be clearly a pattern and not a bad apple:

Being a battered woman
Being raped
Having a baby
Being too thin
Being too fat

Good thing we have the teabag wavers to defend the poor insurance companies against all these vicious evil rape victims who want STD treatment and counseling because, you know, they had the really bad judgment to be raped. They should have just said no. Oh wait, they did, didn't they?
 
So you're in favor of battered women, rape victims, obese people and thin people just paying for their care on their own? I agree. Forget insurance companies.

What is this health-care issue boiling down to?

First, health care costs money. It costs money to go to the doctor, to have a baby, etc. Health insurance is set up so that you're making the gamble that your premiums paid over the course of your life are less than the cost of the care over the course of your life. The insurance company is taking that bet, thinking that the premiums you pay will be more than the cost of paying for your care. In the end, someone pays for the health care.

Instead, the vibe I'm getting (and I could be wrong) is that "everyone deserves insurance". That's not the case, is it? Is it really "everyone deserves health care"? I'm closer to agreeing with that, and that's what we have now. Everyone who walks into an emergency room gets care, whether they can pay or not.

Now, do some people have health issues that are expensive? Of course. Is it the view of many of you that for-profit insurance companies are required to take the losing gamble---that they're required to pay more for the patient's care than the premiums they charge? Or that the person is responsible for their body and care?

Or if they're given government insurance, is it your view that it's the government's responsibility to make up the payment difference?

It seems that the reason you're having a hard time finding a solution to this is simple: you don't want to limit costs of healthcare (making doctors take less money, having CAT scans cost 90% less, whatever); yet you want people to have to pay as little as possible for their healthcare, and you want "someone else" (be it the insurance companies or me as a taxpayer) to make up the difference. There's not really an option in there for someone who thinks a) people should be responsible for themselves and b) government should not be taxing us to pay for the patient's inability to do so.
 
Actually, no I don't say everyone deserves insurance. If you go through insurance companies that means millions of dollars going to administrative costs, bonuses for top execs, and profits for shareholders. I'm in favor of health care for all. How to pay? From the bloated military budget and 100% tax on any income over $1 million. Will the Senate vote for it? Or course not. But you asked my view and that's it.

So it's fine with you for insurance companies to turn down a woman who had the bad judgment to be raped? OK, you're not a woman, so I guess you can't identify. I mean, she probably just was asking for it.
 
Having been turned down (luckily I hadn't cancelled my current insurer, who has warned me they would not re-insure us if we did) and knowing several people who are uninsured because they have been turned down I can attest that insurers act in concert, despite the probable illegality of such a monopolistic stance. If one turns you down, all will turn you down.

I was also informed by my insurer that since we changed to a much higher deductible when they nearly doubled our monthly, they will not allow us to change to a lower deductible ever in the future, even if we paid extra. We will never have more than catastrophic coverage ever again unless a public option is provided, despite the fact we are both in perfect health.

No we don't. Period.

Also, my daughter, with a terminal disease and medication costing $300,000/yr was able to find insurance. Her husband obtained it, the feds agreed to pay her RX for 1 year under medicare, and now their insurance pays for it. So it can be done.
 
Why do you have to say that? Seriously?

Yes, it's fine for me for insurance companies not insure anyone they don't want to insure. If they don't want the business, they don't have to do it.

If the lady had been paying premiums, and they denied her coverage over her care costs, I'm relatively certain there was something in her plan that said "rape costs not covered", or else they would be (or she has a lawsuit). Should women get riders that cover rape and pregnancy,etc? Sure. I have flood insurance on my house--again, playing the gamble that my premiums and deductible will be less than the damage caused by a catastrophic situation that will tear my life apart. The money won't alleviate the sense of loss if I'm left looking for a home, with few possessions--but it will ensure that I have the cash to rebuild.
 
Instead, the vibe I'm getting (and I could be wrong) is that "everyone deserves insurance". That's not the case, is it? Is it really "everyone deserves health care"? I'm closer to agreeing with that, and that's what we have now. Everyone who walks into an emergency room gets care, whether they can pay or not.

Sure, and if they are stuck with a million dollar bill they get to live in poverty till their dying days paying off that bill. And the children that they had (not knowing they'd get so sick) get to grow up in poverty which affects their education choices and opportunities...at least up until college.

...
There's not really an option in there for someone who thinks a) people should be responsible for themselves and b) government should not be taxing us to pay for the patient's inability to do so.

I really can't honestly believe someone has this viewpoint. People should be responsible for themselves? Well, I'm guessing most of us would agree with that. I'd think even most of the sick people would agree with that. But are you really going to walk up to a cancer patient and say "Tough luck that you weren't responsible for yourself and got cancer. Sucks, but now you're doomed to a life in the gutter while you fight off this horrible disease." Where's the compassion and the need to help fellow humans?

And the question above all others - why do you believe health care should be for-profit?
 
Where's the compassion and the need to help fellow humans?
It should be in all of us. In the novel of a post that no one bothered to respond to, I talked in depth about "the compassion and need to help fellow humans". Pardon me if I don't think that our elected officials right now have the first damn clue or need to help fellow humans.

Who said health care should be for-profit?!?! I said that health insurance is for-profit (do you disagree?), and that health care is expensive.

Am I going to drive up next to a guy at the bus stop and say "tough luck that you can't afford a car like mine"? Nope.
Am I going to walk down to the Burnside Mission and say "tough luck that you can't afford a house like mine"? Nope.
Am I going to go down to the Grocery Outlet and tell people "tough luck that you can't afford Safeway vegetables like I can"? Nope.

You're mixing emotion into your argument. You can't honestly believe that someone doesn't want the government taxing them to pay for someone else's inability to? Seriously?
 
Sure, and if they are stuck with a million dollar bill they get to live in poverty till their dying days paying off that bill. And the children that they had (not knowing they'd get so sick) get to grow up in poverty which affects their education choices and opportunities...at least up until college.
So why is it a million-dollar bill? Why aren't you talking about that? Living in poverty is better than dying of cancer....right? Or living a lower standard of living now that allows you to pay catastrophic premiums, or to set aside money to pay for health-care....can't be bothered with that, can we?
 
Why the $1M cutoff? Why not 50k, or $5M? Is this a sliding scale?
 
There are plenty of insurance companies out there. Their goals are clear: to charge you more for your insurance over the life of the policy than they pay out for your care. If they can make money off of you, they'll insure you. They won't act as a cartel.

I wonder why you have so much faith in the Federal Government? What will a political entity do for you a private company cannot?

And I wonder why you don't have any faith in the government. Medicare and the Veterans Administrations health systems are some of the highest quality medical care you can get. My father has had a lot of health problems recently, and the VA moved him from an independant hospital down in Florence, OR to the VA hospital up here in Portland, and immediately his fortunes started turning around. Way better health care. Not even any consideration of what to treat and what not to treat. He had a whole team of doctors taking care of him until he was ready to leave again. Care was top notch.

Are you opposed to government run police forces too? How about government run fire department. Those are socialized services as well, and they work very well, and amazingly enough, would be consdiered "socialism" as how you label it.
 
So it's fine with you for insurance companies to turn down a woman who had the bad judgment to be raped? OK, you're not a woman, so I guess you can't identify. I mean, she probably just was asking for it.

I just lost all the respect I had for you.

Permanently.
 
And I wonder why you don't have any faith in the government. Medicare and the Veterans Administrations health systems are some of the highest quality medical care you can get. My father has had a lot of health problems recently, and the VA moved him from an independant hospital down in Florence, OR to the VA hospital up here in Portland, and immediately his fortunes started turning around. Way better health care. Not even any consideration of what to treat and what not to treat. He had a whole team of doctors taking care of him until he was ready to leave again. Care was top notch.

Don't even begin to talk about the VA. They're a fucking disgrace. I've related the story of my uncle who lost a leg in France and his shoddy treatment. We all know about Walter Reed. Well, this past week my wife's cousin died from an infection he got while being treated at the Denver VA. These people risk their lives to defend our country, they shouldn't risk their lives getting treatment. I'm not surprised that treatment in Portland is better than Florence, but it's no where near the best care he could get.

And Medicare is a payment system, not a healthcare system. And how do you explain that a higher percentage of coverage rejections occur from Medicare than any other major private insurer?

Are you opposed to government run police forces too? How about government run fire department. Those are socialized services as well, and they work very well, and amazingly enough, would be consdiered "socialism" as how you label it.

Those are locally run. I have more of a direct say in how those police and fire departments are run than I do in a national healthcare system. If there's a bad cop or an incompetent firefighter, I can work to get them fired. If the National Health Board decides I don't get a knee replacement, where do I go?

And when did I say I was against all forms of collective investment? I'm also for public roads and public schools. But let's play your game. Since you're in favor of one "socialized" program, are you in favor of making all housing public? Should we get rid of grocery stores and just have public food warehouses? Should we pool our resources, get rid of private automobiles and just have access to everyone's car? I guess because you're in favor of one thing, you must be in favor of them all.

Edit: I apologize for not answering your question. I have zero faith in the Federal Government because there's not accountability nor is there an incentive to be efficient. It means there is increased cost and lower quality. And it happens in department after department in our government. Incentives matter. Remove them, and you have the Soviet Union.
 
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There are plenty of insurance companies out there. Their goals are clear: to charge you more for your insurance over the life of the policy than they pay out for your care. If they can make money off of you, they'll insure you. They won't act as a cartel.

I wonder why you have so much faith in the Federal Government? What will a political entity do for you a private company cannot?

Wrong, they are very much like a cartel, acting in concert.

Their profits are obscenely high and they clearly own most of Washington.

What a public option will do for me is provide affordable healthcare, as has been aptly demonstrated in nearly every country in the world. Why does that frighten you so?
 
What a public option will do for me is provide affordable healthcare while others that are wealthier than me pay for it, as has been aptly demonstrated in nearly every country in the world. Why does that frighten you so?

Fixed it for you.
 
So you're in favor of battered women, rape victims, obese people and thin people just paying for their care on their own? I agree. Forget insurance companies.

What is this health-care issue boiling down to?

First, health care costs money. It costs money to go to the doctor, to have a baby, etc. Health insurance is set up so that you're making the gamble that your premiums paid over the course of your life are less than the cost of the care over the course of your life. The insurance company is taking that bet, thinking that the premiums you pay will be more than the cost of paying for your care. In the end, someone pays for the health care.

Instead, the vibe I'm getting (and I could be wrong) is that "everyone deserves insurance". That's not the case, is it? Is it really "everyone deserves health care"? I'm closer to agreeing with that, and that's what we have now. Everyone who walks into an emergency room gets care, whether they can pay or not.

Now, do some people have health issues that are expensive? Of course. Is it the view of many of you that for-profit insurance companies are required to take the losing gamble---that they're required to pay more for the patient's care than the premiums they charge? Or that the person is responsible for their body and care?

Or if they're given government insurance, is it your view that it's the government's responsibility to make up the payment difference?

It seems that the reason you're having a hard time finding a solution to this is simple: you don't want to limit costs of healthcare (making doctors take less money, having CAT scans cost 90% less, whatever); yet you want people to have to pay as little as possible for their healthcare, and you want "someone else" (be it the insurance companies or me as a taxpayer) to make up the difference. There's not really an option in there for someone who thinks a) people should be responsible for themselves and b) government should not be taxing us to pay for the patient's inability to do so.

Emergency rooms do not provide healthcare for the uninsured. They provide emergency treatment. They determine if your life is in immediate danger, provide intial treatment of your symptoms to stabilize your condition so you don't die on their property, and dismiss you ASAP.

If an unknown medical condition rather than an injury brought you there, they do not attempt to diagnose it. They treat the symptoms that brought you there and dismiss you ASAP.

Affordable Healthcare is the issue. Insurance companies are the unnecessary obstacle.

Their very existence for profit is a large part of why healthcare is unaffordable for so many. Eliminate health insurance and their obscene profiteering and the cost of healthcare is easily halved.

Now look at the absurd profits of the giant drug companies. Tightly regulate their costs and provide a public healthcare system. Tightly regulate our overpaid healthcare professionals.

Nearly every other country has done it and proven it works.

My atheistic view, and the view of your God, is we are our brother's keeper. Every American deserves healthcare.
 
Fixed it for you.

Any way you try to distort it, people are dying so greedy people can hoard money.

I doubt anyone on this board makes several million a year, so none of you would take a hit.

98% of Americans would come out ahead, and the other 2% should be grateful for the opportunity to repay a token of what they have received from the rest of us.
 
Wrong, they are very much like a cartel, acting in concert.

Their profits are obscenely high and they clearly own most of Washington.

What a public option will do for me is provide affordable healthcare, as has been aptly demonstrated in nearly every country in the world. Why does that frighten you so?

I don't know why you keep saying that. The company I work for is owned by a huge health carrier. We've lost so much money the last two years they're laying people off, I've lost most my 401K...

Making these blind inflammatory comments about health carriers is both wrong and immature. Seriously, you don't speak in terms of reality. That makes a good debate impossible.
 
A related story.

Check out the 1st comment below it, which I'm also pasting here. It's spot on.

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/64029-medicare-for-everyone

House Dems want Medicare for everyone
By Mike Soraghan - 10/20/09 08:27 PM ET
Say hello to “Medicare Part E” — as in, “Medicare for Everyone.”

House Democrats are looking at re-branding the public health insurance option as Medicare, an established government healthcare program that is better known than the public option.

The strategy could benefit Democrats struggling to bridge the gap between liberals in their party, who want the public option, and centrists, who are worried it would drive private insurers out of business.
While much of the public is foggy on what a public option actually is, people understand Medicare. It also would place the new public option within the rubric of a familiar system rather than something new and unknown.

The idea has bubbled up among House Democrats and leaders in the past week, most prominently in a caucus meeting last Thursday.

Rep. Mike Ross (D-Ark.) spoke out last week in favor of re-branding the public option as Medicare, startling many because he has loudly proclaimed his opposition to a public option.

Rep. Jim Oberstar (D-Minn.), the veteran chairman of the House Transportation Committee, also voiced his support, as did House Majority Whip James Clyburn (D-S.C.).

John Schadl, a spokesman for Oberstar, explained the congressman likes the idea because people are familiar with Medicare.

“One of his concerns is that people don’t know what a public option is. Medicare is a public option,” Schadl said. He said Oberstar started talking about “Medicare for Everyone” during August town hall meetings.

A notable incident last summer demonstrated the popularity of Medicare and the confusion over the public option when a man famously told Rep. Bob Inglis (R-S.C.), “Keep your government hands off my Medicare.”

Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) planned to unveil a proposal to her caucus Tuesday night that would include the public option favored by liberals in the healthcare bill Democrats want to bring to the floor, according to two House sources.

The plan, called the “robust” option or “Medicare Plus 5” in the jargon that has emerged on Capitol Hill, ties provider reimbursement rates to Medicare, adding 5 percent. Leaders are planning to roll the bill out next week, and are hoping to vote the first week in November

Some Democrats say there’s no need to rename a legislative concept that’s gained steadily in support since being lambasted as a “government takeover” in August. A Washington Post-ABC poll published Tuesday showed 57 percent of the public supports the idea — up five points since August — while 40 percent opposes it.

“It keeps polling better and better as a public health insurance option,” said a senior Democratic aide. “I don’t think it’s changing.” Polling experts, however, have documented that many people don’t know what a public option is, and that small changes in language can cause poll results to vary widely. An August poll by Penn, Schoen and Berland Associates showed that only 37 percent of those polled correctly identified the public option from a list of three choices.

“Before this year, few people had ever heard of the term ‘public option,’ ” Ross said last week.

It’s not clear exactly how the new Medicare idea would work. Some want to expand Medicare itself to uninsured people under 65. Others want to simply rename what is now called the public health insurance option.

Oberstar, who supports a “single-payer” system that would be completely run by the government, doesn’t want a Medicare public option to be based on existing Medicare rates because he believe Minnesota is one of the states shortchanged by Medicare reimbursements.

Republicans mocked the idea of re-branding a plan they still consider a government takeover of healthcare.

“It didn’t matter what they called Crystal Pepsi; no one wanted to drink it,” said Michael Steel, spokesman for House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio). “No matter how the Democrats ‘re-brand’ their government takeover of healthcare, the American people oppose it.”
Republicans also note that Medicare is already $37 trillion in the hole and is projected to go bankrupt by 2018. “Has anyone noticed that Medicare is completely broke?” said Andrew Biggs, a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute who worked in the White House on President George W. Bush’s plan to overhaul Social Security.

The public health insurance option would be a government-run plan designed to push all insurance premiums down by creating more competition in a business where one or two insurers dominate many markets. The idea has gotten a cool reception from some Senate Democrats, and Republicans are adamantly opposed. But Pelosi has flatly stated that the House bill will include a public option.

In a closed-door caucus meeting last week, Ross, one of the most conservative Democrats in the House, offered support for expanding Medicare, saying it would prevent the need to create a new bureaucracy. He said he wasn’t advocating a plan, however, and added that the new coverage would have to have much higher reimbursements for physicians and hospitals. He also said it would need to compete with private insurers.

In an odd reversal, that idea was shot down as too liberal by House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Henry Waxman (D-Calif.), himself a liberal champion. Waxman said expanding Medicare would essentially move toward a fully government-run single-payer system, while the public option was designed to spur competition.

People have been talking about some sort of Medicare Part E since Congress debated the prescription drug benefit, Medicare Part D, in 2003. In the 2004 Democratic presidential primaries, Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) called his single-payer coverage proposal “Medicare Part E.”

The idea of expanding Medicare while still keeping private insurance was proposed in 2007 by Johns Hopkins University Professors Gerard Anderson and Hugh Waters. They presented a paper at a forum of the Brookings Institution advocating “Medicare Part E(veryone),” and said their proposal would expand Medicare to ensure universal coverage while allowing people to stay on their employers’ health plans.

And the comment:

These democrats are some real jackasses, last week they voted to cut medicare by $500 million or something so they could pass the foney fraudulent obamacare and now they want to call the new one Medicare. they don't know their geister from a whole in the ground. Sounds like we got some real ash wholes working under cover of darkness and deadfish trying to cobble something that smells but sells., We don't want your foney fraudulent healthcare. We know your lies/

BY JAKE2 on 10/20/2009 at 21:34
 
Wait, I know it came from the mouth of a republican, but Medicare is $37 trillion in the red?
 
Wrong, they are very much like a cartel, acting in concert.

The only reason they would appear to "act in concert" is due to the regulations put on them by the state insurance boards. Other than that, market forces drive them. You can continue to live in ignorace, however.

Their profits are obscenely high and they clearly own most of Washington.

I'm going to give you a number from Michael Bennet--a Democrat senator who has been bought by the DNC and is fully supporting whatever healthcare bill comes out of committee. He said if you took every penny of profit from the annual profits of every single insurance company in the country, it would pay for FOUR days of healthcare. And this is someone who is relying on President Obama to get him re-elected this year. So much for "obscenely high" profits. As for owning most of Washington, if they did, the healthcare proposal wouldn't have gone this far.

What a public option will do for me is provide affordable healthcare, as has been aptly demonstrated in nearly every country in the world. Why does that frighten you so?

Well, your affordable health care will be paid for by me. What right do you have to reach into my pocket? As for health care in other parts of the world, clearly you've never been a recipient of health care from a physician making the equivalent of $40K.
 
Any way you try to distort it, people are dying so greedy people can hoard money.

I doubt anyone on this board makes several million a year, so none of you would take a hit.

98% of Americans would come out ahead, and the other 2% should be grateful for the opportunity to repay a token of what they have received from the rest of us.

Do you really think that all of this will be paid for people making "several million a year"?:crazy:
 
It should be in all of us. In the novel of a post that no one bothered to respond to, I talked in depth about "the compassion and need to help fellow humans". Pardon me if I don't think that our elected officials right now have the first damn clue or need to help fellow humans.

Well since some of these elected officials are so called Christians it shouldn't be an issue should it? I think that the one area that Republicans seem to miss in all of their "leave it to the churches, people, etc. to care for the poor" is the fact that many people just don't give a damn and never will. And sure, that may be fine for many things but again I strongly believe it comes down to whether you believe health and wellness is an inevitable right.

Who said health care should be for-profit?!?! I said that health insurance is for-profit (do you disagree?), and that health care is expensive.

What do you think health care is currently? Defending the current system is defending for-profit health care. Insurance is for-profit but in the case of countries where there is socialized medicine you don't NEED insurance. You can get it if you want to cover extras but nothing is needed for the basics. Because, those silly Europeans who obviously are devoid of any evolution, believe that health care is a basic right as a human.

Am I going to drive up next to a guy at the bus stop and say "tough luck that you can't afford a car like mine"? Nope.
Am I going to walk down to the Burnside Mission and say "tough luck that you can't afford a house like mine"? Nope.
Am I going to go down to the Grocery Outlet and tell people "tough luck that you can't afford Safeway vegetables like I can"? Nope.

Strawman, but nice try. None of those are health care and I've never stated cars, or houses, or Safeway vegetables (is that the best you can buy?) are basic rights...though I would argue that food probably is.

You're mixing emotion into your argument. You can't honestly believe that someone doesn't want the government taxing them to pay for someone else's inability to? Seriously?

Well pardon me but I have this funny feeling that compassion REQUIRES emotion. I can't honestly believe that someone believes that everyone should just be on their own and deal with health care as their own responsibility and that if they get screwed for the rest of their life dealing with their health then, oh well, that's their issue...
 
You can't honestly believe that some millionaires don't want the government taxing them to save the lives of less fortunate people who will otherwise suffer needlessly and die horribly painful deaths? Seriously?

I can believe it alright.

And I find it reprehensible and downright sickening (no pun intended).

Since you're a Christian, WWJD?

I think we both know.
 
Well since some of these elected officials are so called Christians it shouldn't be an issue should it? I think that the one area that Republicans seem to miss in all of their "leave it to the churches, people, etc. to care for the poor" is the fact that many people just don't give a damn and never will. And sure, that may be fine for many things but again I strongly believe it comes down to whether you believe health and wellness is an inevitable right.



What do you think health care is currently? Defending the current system is defending for-profit health care. Insurance is for-profit but in the case of countries where there is socialized medicine you don't NEED insurance. You can get it if you want to cover extras but nothing is needed for the basics. Because, those silly Europeans who obviously are devoid of any evolution, believe that health care is a basic right as a human.



Strawman, but nice try. None of those are health care and I've never stated cars, or houses, or Safeway vegetables (is that the best you can buy?) are basic rights...though I would argue that food probably is.



Well pardon me but I have this funny feeling that compassion REQUIRES emotion. I can't honestly believe that someone believes that everyone should just be on their own and deal with health care as their own responsibility and that if they get screwed for the rest of their life dealing with their health then, oh well, that's their issue...

Why do you believe compassion has to be a required government program? I always thought the hallmark of compassion was a willingness and desire to do something for someone else without being prodded or coerced. Legislating compassion is a new one for me.
 

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