Someone help me out here

[BrianFromWA]

I guess you could say in general that I'm not pro-illegal immigration. But I am confused about the medical care stuff that goes along with it.

For instance, i fully agree that ER patients should be treated as ER patients regardless of whether or not they have ID on them. Doctors live by their code. I'm good with that.

But if an escaped prisoner walked into a hospital ER, he would be treated and then sent back to the prison, right? If a guy was shot for some reason, his wound would be treated and then he'd be sent to the police, correct? Why is it that someone who's in our country illegally can't receive treatment and then be photographed, printed, cataloged and deported?

 

[maxiep]

Exactly. I understand the argument against calling the INS if someone comes into an emergency room--you don't want someone not to get treatment because they fear deportation--I just don't agree with it. I think if you're illegal, you should run the constant risk of being deported. I love legal immigration; it renews the lifeblood and risk-taking spirit of this country. However, illegal immigration serves to create an underground economy, where people are forced to hide and are abused by others.

We need foreign workers. I wish we'd do a better job in getting these people visas for temp work rather than leaving them with the prospect of spending lots of money and time waiting to be legal or crossing the border illegaly.

 

[Eastoff]

Exactly. I understand the argument against calling the INS if someone comes into an emergency room--you don't want someone not to get treatment because they fear deportation--I just don't agree with it. I think if you're illegal, you should run the constant risk of being deported. I love legal immigration; it renews the lifeblood and risk-taking spirit of this country. However, illegal immigration serves to create an underground economy, where people are forced to hide and are abused by others.

We need foreign workers. I wish we'd do a better job in getting these people visas for temp work rather than leaving them with the prospect of spending lots of money and time waiting to be legal or crossing the border illegaly.

I agree, it would be nice if it wasn't so incredibly hard to come across this border legally! I don't know if you would agree that the whole process of becoming a citizen is a bit too slow. I think the average time it takes to become a citizen is like 9 years.

I had heard that when an illegal immigrant is arrested, he gets deported. But I had also heard they just don't arrest them because it costs too much to deport them... I have a cousin in-law that's a portland detective, so i'll ask him next time I see him.

 

[maxiep]

I agree, it would be nice if it wasn't so incredibly hard to come across this border legally! I don't know if you would agree that the whole process of becoming a citizen is a bit too slow. I think the average time it takes to become a citizen is like 9 years.

I'm not talking citizenship; I'm talking a full-blown guest worker program. We have one, but it's been ignored because we've tacitly allowed millions of people to cross the border illegaly.

I had heard that when an illegal immigrant is arrested, he gets deported. But I had also heard they just don't arrest them because it costs too much to deport them... I have a cousin in-law that's a portland detective, so i'll ask him next time I see him.

I don't think when they're pulled over or asked to provide identification, that the police are allowed to determine their immigration status, but I'm not sure.

 

[BrianFromWA]

So why isn't anyone (on either side, afaik) talking about immigration reform right now? Why does it take 9 years to get in? We have 5 Chinese citizens in our church on a visa going to school here. I know it didn't take them 9 years to get those. Is there a big difference between a work visa and a student visa?

 

[maxiep]

So why isn't anyone (on either side, afaik) talking about immigration reform right now? Why does it take 9 years to get in? We have 5 Chinese citizens in our church on a visa going to school here. I know it didn't take them 9 years to get those. Is there a big difference between a work visa and a student visa?

No one wants to touch immigration reform because both parties are afraid if they promote it they'll be branded as "anti-Latino" and they'll become a permanent minority party. It's all about the Latino vote.

As for why work visas aren't as prominent (although there are more of them), companies find it easier to hire illegal aliens with fake IDs on a "wink-wink" basis than to sponsor and be responsible for immigrants they hire temporarily.

 

[elcap15]

Getting a work visa is much easier than getting citizenship. And I think it should be. Citizenship comes with a whole host of rights that should not be given out without a lengthy process.

One of the problems with immigration is, legal immigration quotas are filled quickly by skilled workers. Generally these are immigrants from a higher socio-economic standing in their own country, and thus have higher education levels etc. Also, these are not the workers that will cause problems to any system as they generally are higher income, pay taxes, have insurance etc. This leaves little room for the poor, uneducated laborer to get into this country legally.

 

[Eastoff]

I'm not talking citizenship; I'm talking a full-blown guest worker program. We have one, but it's been ignored because we've tacitly allowed millions of people to cross the border illegaly.
...

Yeah, I didn't think you'd care for the citizenship. But that's what I was trying to say about agreeing first part, and not agreeing second.

edit: when i said come across the border legally, i didn't necessarily mean forever.

 

[Denny Crane]

I guess you could say in general that I'm not pro-illegal immigration. But I am confused about the medical care stuff that goes along with it.

For instance, i fully agree that ER patients should be treated as ER patients regardless of whether or not they have ID on them. Doctors live by their code. I'm good with that.

But if an escaped prisoner walked into a hospital ER, he would be treated and then sent back to the prison, right? If a guy was shot for some reason, his wound would be treated and then he'd be sent to the police, correct? Why is it that someone who's in our country illegally can't receive treatment and then be photographed, printed, cataloged and deported?

There are modest criminal penalties for being an illegal immigrant. Like a year in jail or a $2K fine. But what a nightmare it would be to enforce those laws.

Putting an illegal in prison for a year is free health care, free food, free housing, plus the cost of paying the people who run the place as well as other expenses (like electricity). I'm not saying it would be a bounty for the illegal, just an absurd cost for us (society) to bear.

An illegal's situation is not always cut and dried. Constitutionally, you are a citizen if born on US soil. Many illegals do have kids in the USA. Do you deport citizens (the kids) because the parents are illegal? Do you break up families and just deport the parents?

 

[bodyman5001]

There are modest criminal penalties for being an illegal immigrant. Like a year in jail or a $2K fine. But what a nightmare it would be to enforce those laws.

Putting an illegal in prison for a year is free health care, free food, free housing, plus the cost of paying the people who run the place as well as other expenses (like electricity). I'm not saying it would be a bounty for the illegal, just an absurd cost for us (society) to bear.

An illegal's situation is not always cut and dried. Constitutionally, you are a citizen if born on US soil. Many illegals do have kids in the USA. Do you deport citizens (the kids) because the parents are illegal? Do you break up families and just deport the parents?

Yes, a lot of punishment isn't fair. One guy can get 30 days in jail, and only serve 24 for killing a guy while driving drunk and another guy can get a year or more for downloading DVDs off of the internet.

I would say that parental status trumps citizenship. If you deport the parents and they want to take their children, good for them. That child should have full rights as a citizen if he or she chooses to move back here. People move out of this country with their children all the time, we don't try to stop them.

The reason I would do this is to deter them from entering this country illegally. What stops me from checking out the abandoned house next door is the fear of going to jail, yet I feel I should be able to walk in any time as it affects me. Just like the illegals feel they will get a better life. Stop that feeling and they won't come.

 

[Denny Crane]

Yes, a lot of punishment isn't fair. One guy can get 30 days in jail, and only serve 24 for killing a guy while driving drunk and another guy can get a year or more for downloading DVDs off of the internet.

I would say that parental status trumps citizenship. If you deport the parents and they want to take their children, good for them. That child should have full rights as a citizen if he or she chooses to move back here. People move out of this country with their children all the time, we don't try to stop them.

The reason I would do this is to deter them from entering this country illegally. What stops me from checking out the abandoned house next door is the fear of going to jail, yet I feel I should be able to walk in any time as it affects me. Just like the illegals feel they will get a better life. Stop that feeling and they won't come.

We don't execute the parents or children or siblings of murderers. Even if they happen to be illegal immigrants.

 

[Eastoff]

...
The reason I would do this is to deter them from entering this country illegally. What stops me from checking out the abandoned house next door is the fear of going to jail, yet I feel I should be able to walk in any time as it affects me. Just like the illegals feel they will get a better life. Stop that feeling and they won't come.

I'm pretty sure our shitty economy has been a much better deterrent! Those jerks, trying to get a good life! Our immigrant for-fathers came here completely legally and legally bought land from people who didn't own the land or stole it! It's only fair that they too should have to wait 9 years like our more immediate relatives did at ellis island, right? It's only fair that they too should have to have a job already lined up or be a millionaire like our immigrant relatives, right?

 

[Denny Crane]

I'm pretty sure our shitty economy has been a much better deterrent! Those jerks, trying to get a good life! Our immigrant for-fathers came here completely legally and legally bought land from people who didn't own the land or stole it! It's only fair that they too should have to wait 9 years like our more immediate relatives did at ellis island, right? It's only fair that they too should have to have a job already lined up or be a millionaire like our immigrant relatives, right?

It's called "pulling up the ladder after you get on the boat"

 

[Eastoff]

It's called "pulling up the ladder after you get on the boat"

yup! Now that I got mine, you ain't getting yours!

 

[maxiep]

Yeah, I didn't think you'd care for the citizenship. But that's what I was trying to say about agreeing first part, and not agreeing second.

edit: when i said come across the border legally, i didn't necessarily mean forever.

Don't mistake my point: I think anyone that wants to become a citizen here legally should be given a shot to do so, as long as they're law abiding. I believe in the concept of American Exceptionalism, and I think it's the reason we're continually successful, even when our demise is prematurely reported. When you have someone who is willing to give up everything they know to move to a new world in the HOPES of a better life, more often than not that person will be a productive member of society and will raise children with the same outlook.

 

[maxiep]

There are modest criminal penalties for being an illegal immigrant. Like a year in jail or a $2K fine. But what a nightmare it would be to enforce those laws.

Putting an illegal in prison for a year is free health care, free food, free housing, plus the cost of paying the people who run the place as well as other expenses (like electricity). I'm not saying it would be a bounty for the illegal, just an absurd cost for us (society) to bear.

Deporting them in the simplest and cheapest option.

An illegal's situation is not always cut and dried. Constitutionally, you are a citizen if born on US soil. Many illegals do have kids in the USA. Do you deport citizens (the kids) because the parents are illegal? Do you break up families and just deport the parents?

The hard answer is "yes". You give the parents the option to take the kids with them, but sometime life is a bitch. Anchor children are a real problem. Frankly, I would like to see a law passed stating that if both parents entered this country without permission, the child is not considered a US Citizen. It would, of course, require other countries to agree to accept them as citizens as well.

 

[maxiep]

It's called "pulling up the ladder after you get on the boat"

Others would call it "Obeying and respecting the law". Please don't paint being anti-illegal immigrant as being anti-immigrant. Certainly, you know better.

 

[Eastoff]

Don't mistake my point: I think anyone that wants to become a citizen here legally should be given a shot to do so, as long as they're law abiding. I believe in the concept of American Exceptionalism, and I think it's the reason we're continually successful, even when our demise is prematurely reported. When you have someone who is willing to give up everything they know to move to a new world in the HOPES of a better life, more often than not that person will be a productive member of society and will raise children with the same outlook.

The problem is that, you have to already have a relative or a sponsor in able to get a green card. Then to become a citizen takes more effort still. So if you're just some schmuck that doesn't know anyone, you can't attempt the dream legally.

 

[Eastoff]

Deporting them in the simplest and cheapest option.



The hard answer is "yes". You give the parents the option to take the kids with them, but sometime life is a bitch. Anchor children are a real problem. Frankly, I would like to see a law passed stating that if both parents entered this country without permission, the child is not considered a US Citizen. It would, of course, require other countries to agree to accept them as citizens as well.

I would assume you would grandfather them in, else I could imagine some argument against those who came before us.

 

[maxiep]

The problem is that, you have to already have a relative or a sponsor in able to get a green card. Then to become a citizen takes more effort still. So if you're just some schmuck that doesn't know anyone, you can't attempt the dream legally.

That's where the worker program comes in. Put them along the border and in Central American cities. Have companies provide job postings and requirements. Meat packing plants and farmers hire them in huge numbers. It would stop a number of problems:

1. Not knowing who's in the country.

2. Stopping illegals being used as drug mules.

3. Protecting the rights of these people who wouldn't be able to go the police if they were illegal.

4. Allowing these people to be paid a proper wage without having to give a huge chunk to check servicing companies. Protect their rights as workers.

5. Rid this country of the "underground economy" that illegal immigration creates.

 

[Eastoff]

That's where the worker program comes in. Put them along the border and in Central American cities. Have companies provide job postings and requirements. Meat packing plants and farmers hire them in huge numbers. It would stop a number of problems:

1. Not knowing who's in the country.

2. Stopping illegals being used as drug mules.

3. Protecting the rights of these people who wouldn't be able to go the police if they were illegal.

4. Allowing these people to be paid a proper wage without having to give a huge chunk to check servicing companies. Protect their rights as workers.

5. Rid this country of the "underground economy" that illegal immigration creates.

But who would do the migrant farm labor of picking crops? (serious) That is an industry as I understand, can not really support a minimum wage. I hear that stable work is also not a minimum paying wage.

 

[maxiep]

But who would do the migrant farm labor of picking crops? (serious) That is an industry as I understand, can not really support a minimum wage. I hear that stable work is also not a minimum paying wage.

I'm willing to pay more for my lettuce. Besides, it's not necessary to pay them Federal minimum wages if they're not citizens. And it's not wages that concerns me as much as working conditions and work hours.

 

[Colonel Ronan]

England prevails!

When I first moved here, post-9/11 (so, almost exactly eight years to this day), only my step-dad was work visa application was accepted for some unknown reason. My mother wasn't able to work for almost four years while we lived in the States. We were given a temporary visa that expired every two years. When this happened, we had to travel to a US Embassy in a foreign country so we took the ten-odd hour drive to Toronto. In the end, it took us seven years to get our green card which is considered long compared to the other stories we've heard.

Once you get your green card, there are still a bunch of other rules that you need to follow. I believe you have to stay in the United States for seven months every year or they have the right to revoke your citizenship.

Then again, I'd say the system is quite smooth assuming you aren't illegal.