Sooo… for those who wanted a rebuild…

[SharpeScooterShooter]

I’m curious if anyone has changed their mind one way or another?
I had mixed desires. I did not want to trade dame and I wanted to trade the #3 pick and whatever else to bring in another all star to pair with Dame.

My mind has now changed and I wish we would have traded him a year or two earlier when he had a year left before his super max extension. I love Dame, but I think waiting depleted a lot of his value(combined with his demands) and so we did not get good value for him.
Brogdon is not a quality starter on a contending team. He is a super 6th man.
The picks are further out and likely not ready to help when Scoot and Sharpe come into their own, just as they weren’t ready to help Dame.

I’m getting this sinking feeling that in a few years we are going to do the same thing. Trade away our developed young’s looking for more picks down the road… kicking the can down the road.

This is not a path to a winning team. This is a path to perpetual cellar dwelling.

If you want to win, you have to pay. Period. The bulk of the team on rookie contracts will save Jody a lot of money but will make us a loser year after year….

I don’t know the right answer to turn the ship around and feel positive about the future, but I’m believing more and more, we are not on the right path to get better.

So what did you want to do with Dame and has your mind changed at all since we traded him?

 

[BankTeller]

I’ve always thought we should’ve traded Dame a few years too early than a few years too late. Two years later, I don’t really care that we waited that long to trade him. I think you’re thinking about it too hard. You’re saying you’ve changed your mind and wish we traded Dame earlier, but now you’re saying you’re afraid we might sell on Scoot and Shae like how we did Dame (who you said you changed your mind on selling in the first place)?

Take some time to not worry about these small things. You’ve had a decade of mediocre basketball, were you ever convinced we were actually good enough after Aldridge left? We weren’t on the path to being a winning team dating back to 2015, don’t lie to yourself saying otherwise.

Close to a decade later, what do we have? We have a young backcourt with a whole lot of potential. We have another PG/SG that can get legit value in the form of picks or players that would drastically change the team. Brogdon isn’t even worth mentioning, he was never seen as a key piece. He was the third trade down in talent (Dame -> Jrue, got some picks. Then Jrue -> Brogon, got some picks). Brogdon is just going to be a fourth 1st rounder that is a part of an overall Dame trade. We were all worried about only having a Heat ‘28 and ‘30 1st, which may or may not have been good 1sts. Now, we might have a grand total of 4 1sts and 2 swaps, what more can you ask for?

One year post Dame, we might also have 2 lotto picks, and the 34th pick, AND likely the 36-37th pick to add to our young talent. I don’t really care if this is the worse draft in awhile. It only sucks to have all those picks in a bad draft if you aren’t confident in your ability to find talent. We literally hired a truffle pig for this exact reason. He’s already nailed one 2nd imo with Walker. Camara was someone they worked out in the pre-draft process, clearly he was someone Schmitz wanted his hands on. I’m high on Rupert as well.

Picks further out are fine. We basically have two high 1sts and two low 1sts in this draft. We won’t be giving up a 1st until we actually make the playoffs. By then, all of our swaps have a shot of conveying, and we’ll have multiple 1sts in what apparently is going to be a deep ‘29 draft (according to someone here).

Yes, if we aren’t good enough by then, we’ll have to trade one of Shae or Scoot, or both and start all over. This time, it might be better to trade them sooner than later if it doesn’t work out, but it’ll have to be done. In 10 years, you could be writing this exact same post about how in hindsight, we should’ve traded Shae and Scoot before it was too late. But of course, you’ll be that same person who clamours to trade multiple 1sts for role players like we did for so many years.

What you’ve describe actually is the right path. It’s only the wrong path if you don’t draft the right players develop them well. Even having the wrong vet for a season doesn’t derail the entire development of a player. Jordan came into the lead with cokeheads on his team. Lebron’s entire rookie year, his vets were highly jealous of the hype he was getting, he basically had no vets. Making a wrong selection also doesn’t derail everything. Poku never developed into anything in OKC. Mistakes can happen. We’ve already learned from one mistake, letting Aldridge go for nothing. Hopefully, this time, if it doesn’t work out with either Scoot or Shae, we trade them for max value instead of waiting too long. Learn from your franchise mistakes.

Just have some faith.

 

[BassPlaya]

Right or wrong, hind sight does nothing for the future. Here is the now:

The team has gotten out from under the massive weight of 2 supers$.
The team has created an identity that is infused with hard work and defense.
The team is loaded with future pics.
The team is laden with good, young, high character players that I am proud to root for and believe in.

The future?

One really good 4 & 5, and this team will and it fortunes will change drastically.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

I’ve always thought we should’ve traded Dame a few years too early than a few years too late. Two years later, I don’t really care that we waited that long to trade him. I think you’re thinking about it too hard. You’re saying you’ve changed your mind and wish we traded Dame earlier, but now you’re saying you’re afraid we might sell on Scoot and Shae like how we did Dame (who you said you changed your mind on selling in the first place)?

Take some time to not worry about these small things. You’ve had a decade of mediocre basketball, were you ever convinced we were actually good enough after Aldridge left? We weren’t on the path to being a winning team dating back to 2015, don’t lie to yourself saying otherwise.

Close to a decade later, what do we have? We have a young backcourt with a whole lot of potential. We have another PG/SG that can get legit value in the form of picks or players that would drastically change the team. Brogdon isn’t even worth mentioning, he was never seen as a key piece. He was the third trade down in talent (Dame -> Jrue, got some picks. Then Jrue -> Brogon, got some picks). Brogdon is just going to be a fourth 1st rounder that is a part of an overall Dame trade. We were all worried about only having a Heat ‘28 and ‘30 1st, which may or may not have been good 1sts. Now, we might have a grand total of 4 1sts and 2 swaps, what more can you ask for?

One year post Dame, we might also have 2 lotto picks, and the 34th pick, AND likely the 36-37th pick to add to our young talent. I don’t really care if this is the worse draft in awhile. It only sucks to have all those picks in a bad draft if you aren’t confident in your ability to find talent. We literally hired a truffle pig for this exact reason. He’s already nailed one 2nd imo with Walker. Camara was someone they worked out in the pre-draft process, clearly he was someone Schmitz wanted his hands on. I’m high on Rupert as well.

Picks further out are fine. We basically have two high 1sts and two low 1sts in this draft. We won’t be giving up a 1st until we actually make the playoffs. By then, all of our swaps have a shot of conveying, and we’ll have multiple 1sts in what apparently is going to be a deep ‘29 draft (according to someone here).

Yes, if we aren’t good enough by then, we’ll have to trade one of Shae or Scoot, or both and start all over. This time, it might be better to trade them sooner than later if it doesn’t work out, but it’ll have to be done. In 10 years, you could be writing this exact same post about how in hindsight, we should’ve traded Shae and Scoot before it was too late. But of course, you’ll be that same person who clamours to trade multiple 1sts for role players like we did for so many years.

What you’ve describe actually is the right path. It’s only the wrong path if you don’t draft the right players develop them well. Even having the wrong vet for a season doesn’t derail the entire development of a player. Jordan came into the lead with cokeheads on his team. Lebron’s entire rookie year, his vets were highly jealous of the hype he was getting, he basically had no vets. Making a wrong selection also doesn’t derail everything. Poku never developed into anything in OKC. Mistakes can happen. We’ve already learned from one mistake, letting Aldridge go for nothing. Hopefully, this time, if it doesn’t work out with either Scoot or Shae, we trade them for max value instead of waiting too long. Learn from your franchise mistakes.

Just have some faith.

I think it’s a bit more complicated than that.
Your last paragraph is my point of contention.

Damecproved himself worthy and management did shit.
Without new ownership/direction, what faith should I have that if Scoot/Shae become the real deal, we still don’t trade them and kick the can down the road?


I do agree, trade them at thier peak if we are to trade them, but my fear is they will become all star level quality, we will still be a mediocre team due to lack of a balanced roster and then we trade them away for more picks.
I guess my beef is more and more with ownership and I’m finally realizing how big the loss of Dame was.

I say I changed my mind only because we traded him. I said I’d rather have kept him and keep trying, but since we did trade him, I now wish it was a couple years earlier to bring back more talent/value.

Is owenership/management going to go full circle and repeat?

im getting a sinking feeling they are steering the ship in that direction.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Right or wrong, hind sight does nothing for the future. Here is the now:

The team has gotten out from under the massive weight of 2 supers$.
The team has created an identity that is infused with hard work and defense.
The team is loaded with future pics.
The team is laden with good, young, high character players that I am proud to root for and believe in.

The future?

One really good 4 & 5, and this team will and it fortunes will change drastically.

I certainly hope you are right. I’m just not seeing progression from Sharpe. I’m seeing regression. when you say really good, I think it has to be all star level good. That’s much easier said than done.

 

[Cugel]

This rebuild is like going to the dentist. You know you have to do it but you don't have to enjoy it. In fact it's downright unpleasant but in hindsight the best option.

 

[BankTeller]

I say I changed my mind only because we traded him. I said I’d rather have kept him and keep trying, but since we did trade him, I now wish it was a couple years earlier to bring back more talent/value.

There lies your problem. You seem to be going back and forth with what you want.

I’ve always known Dame couldn’t contend with this roster. Once he was gone, I was happy enough with the pieces he left behind that I had to regrets on trading him too early or late. Now the only way is forward. Again, griping over how much bigger of a return, especially in hindsight, will drive you crazy.

4 1sts (Brogdon trade pending) and 2 swaps is still great for trading your star too late.

The player package is basically what so many Blazers fans hoped for. So many people were clamoring for DA, and we got him. Camara, no one saw his impact coming so quick. TimeLord hasn’t worked out, but adding him was the turning point to us getting the eventual ‘24 GSW 1st. Had that not happened, we would be waiting on Clippers picks to come by. That’s still a great asset, but you’ve already complained about those picks being so far out. Well, we got a potential lotto pick that should convey this year.

Again, I think you should be happy with the value we got. Or let’s at least see what guys like Mitchell fetch.

 

[BankTeller]

I guess my beef is more and more with ownership and I’m finally realizing how big the loss of Dame was.

Shae and Scoot won’t be in their primes for like four more years. It’s likely the team will be sold by then. We’ve seen these new owners come in and become overzealous in trying to win too quick. When a new owner comes in, we’ll have guys with enough experience under their belt who might be able to make a run. But I’d also want an owner who knows it’s better to not empty the pantry right away.

If a new owner comes in and demanded we trade all 3 1sts in ‘29, plus more 1sts for a star who might not even fit the team (but he’s a star), I’d be even more worried about the team.

The issue with ownership ever affecting how Shae/Scoot feel is so far into the future for you to worry about, imo.

 

[BankTeller]

I do agree, trade them at thier peak if we are to trade them, but my fear is they will become all star level quality, we will still be a mediocre team due to lack of a balanced roster and then we trade them away for more picks.

Teams don’t keep trading players for picks forever. OKC won’t be doing that for awhile.

They are seriously starting to compete this year. They might end up with a high seed but they might end up still losing in the first or second round. They’ll also likely have 3 pretty good 1st round picks, possibly 2 in the lotto. They already have so much talent, and they’re going to be able to add even MORE. That’s absolutely insane.

We have nowhere near their amount of picks OR talent. So again, I think this shouldn’t even be a worry. You’re getting yourself worked up over nothing at the moment.

 

[BankTeller]

Right or wrong, hind sight does nothing for the future. Here is the now:

The team has gotten out from under the massive weight of 2 supers$.
The team has created an identity that is infused with hard work and defense.
The team is loaded with future pics.
The team is laden with good, young, high character players that I am proud to root for and believe in.

The future?

One really good 4 & 5, and this team will and it fortunes will change drastically.

Yup, echoing all your sentiments. I’d say the chances of finding both in this draft are pretty high. When you basically have four stabs at it between two high 1sts and two high 2nds, with a truffle pig in the FO, you should feel pretty confident.

 

[andalusian]

I did not enjoy the last couple of years of the Dame era, so, no, I am not upset about the rebuild. The problem probably happend in 2016/2017 when NeO did not properly update the roster, while the team was able to be fun for 3 years or so after that, it was a gamble that failed and at this point, we are just prolonging the same old, same old.

The rebuild might be long and painful, but the status quo was not worth keeping.

 

[Labinot41]

Trade Dame and go into full rebuild. You can't do both. You have to pick one direction and go with it. That idiot Neil tried to do it both and we were the definition of average. Hated to see Dame gone, but it was time to cash, one year later and the return wouldn't have been half as good. Rebuild is ugly, especially the first year, but the award could be a upcoming contender in a few years, or we end up like Minnesota, Sacramento, Charlotte etc. Hopefully not, but it can happen

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Shae and Scoot won’t be in their primes for like four more years. It’s likely the team will be sold by then. We’ve seen these new owners come in and become overzealous in trying to win too quick. When a new owner comes in, we’ll have guys with enough experience under their belt who might be able to make a run. But I’d also want an owner who knows it’s better to not empty the pantry right away.

If a new owner comes in and demanded we trade all 3 1sts in ‘29, plus more 1sts for a star who might not even fit the team (but he’s a star), I’d be even more worried about the team.

The issue with ownership ever affecting how Shae/Scoot feel is so far into the future for you to worry about, imo.

Okay, but I AM trying to look at long term, big picture. so 4-5 years form now doesn't seem too far out at all to be concerned. I hope you are right though.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

There lies your problem. You seem to be going back and forth with what you want.

I’ve always known Dame couldn’t contend with this roster. Once he was gone, I was happy enough with the pieces he left behind that I had to regrets on trading him too early or late. Now the only way is forward. Again, griping over how much bigger of a return, especially in hindsight, will drive you crazy.

4 1sts (Brogdon trade pending) and 2 swaps is still great for trading your star too late.

The player package is basically what so many Blazers fans hoped for. So many people were clamoring for DA, and we got him. Camara, no one saw his impact coming so quick. TimeLord hasn’t worked out, but adding him was the turning point to us getting the eventual ‘24 GSW 1st. Had that not happened, we would be waiting on Clippers picks to come by. That’s still a great asset, but you’ve already complained about those picks being so far out. Well, we got a potential lotto pick that should convey this year.

Again, I think you should be happy with the value we got. Or let’s at least see what guys like Mitchell fetch.

Please correct me if i'm wrong, but were only got 2 1sts. you are thinking we can get two firsts for Bro0dgon? Im not seeing that at all.

DA was not really returned for Dame that would be for Nurk, little and Johnson. about a fair trade in my opinion. The balance is Camara, Brogdon, 2 1sts and 2 swaps that may not amount to anything. This doesn't seem like fair value considering where other trades for superstars have landed, but I agree, lets see what Mitchel brings. We know when he was traded from Utah, they got alot more than what we did for Dame.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Teams don’t keep trading players for picks forever. OKC won’t be doing that for awhile.

They are seriously starting to compete this year. They might end up with a high seed but they might end up still losing in the first or second round. They’ll also likely have 3 pretty good 1st round picks, possibly 2 in the lotto. They already have so much talent, and they’re going to be able to add even MORE. That’s absolutely insane.

We have nowhere near their amount of picks OR talent. So again, I think this shouldn’t even be a worry. You’re getting yourself worked up over nothing at the moment.

Did not OKC start before us and have an MVP caliber player along with a couple of probable all star potentials? I see their top end as alot better than our top end right now. Plus way more balanced. We only need one all star guard. The other should be a 3& D guy. The balance of the all star potential should be in the bigs and we arent light years away from that in my view. Unless we completely luck out in the draft, I see this build lasting much longer than OKC.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I wanted the first option ABOUT THREE FUCKING YEARS AGO

 

[BankTeller]

Please correct me if i'm wrong, but were only got 2 1sts. you are thinking we can get two firsts for Bro0dgon? Im not seeing that at all.

DA was not really returned for Dame that would be for Nurk, little and Johnson. about a fair trade in my opinion. The balance is Camara, Brogdon, 2 1sts and 2 swaps that may not amount to anything. This doesn't seem like fair value considering where other trades for superstars have landed, but I agree, lets see what Mitchel brings. We know when he was traded from Utah, they got alot more than what we did for Dame.

1 1st from the Dame trade, 2 from the Holiday trade, 1 from the eventual Brogdon trade.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

1 1st from the Dame trade, 2 from the Holiday trade, 1 from the eventual Brogdon trade.

Hmm. I may have missed some details. Alot happened this summer.

so to provide a summary,

Out:
Dame(superstar, MVP contender)
Nurk(borderline all star vet)
Little(some potential)
Johnson(solid 3rd stringer)

In:
DA(borderline all star vet)
Brogdon(perennial 6th man)
Camara(high upside)
Williams(meh)
3 1sts
2 pick swaps

I don't know. Just seems like we didn't get as much as we should have when looking at other teams trades of their stars.


For the record, I was not for trading Dame.

Id have rather traded him 2 years ago(hindsight only opinion) or not at all and just run the course and let him be the best Blazer ever. I know he asked out, but I really think we could have brought his mind back if we would have refused to trade him and worked on more things this year to build around him. We didn't have to do it at the draft. He is on contract.

I do like Cronin and overall think he has done a good job thus far with the hand he has been dealt, but I think if we would not have caved into Dames demands, we might have been able to do alot more this trade deadline/offseason to build the best team around him he has seen.

 

[Chris Craig]

Never wanted to trade Dame. But, I understand why he wanted out after the Blazers failed to put a team around him.

The Blazers tried to implement a "quick rebuild" and it's a disaster. We have seen other teams go into complete rebuilds and not look this bad. I anticipate we will trade Grant and Brogdon and enter a full rebuild. It's going to be very exhausting and hard to watch. I just hope it's worth it in the end.

The rebuild after the 2000 WCF implosion didn't even seem as bad as this.

I'd take being Mediocre with Dame and making the playoffs even with a short exit over this. But, I guess eventually that would have ended anyway with his retirement and nothing to show for it. I guess at least we a stack of assets. Ugh.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Never wanted to trade Dame. But, I understand why he wanted out after the Blazers failed to put a team around him.

The Blazers tried to implement a "quick rebuild" and it's a disaster. We have seen other teams go into complete rebuilds and not look this bad. I anticipate we will trade Grant and Brogdon and enter a full rebuild. It's going to be very exhausting and hard to watch. I just hope it's worth it in the end.

The rebuild after the 2000 WCF implosion didn't even seem as bad as this.

I'd take being Mediocre with Dame and making the playoffs even with a short exit over this. But, I guess eventually that would have ended anyway with his retirement and nothing to show for it. I guess at least we a stack of assets. Ugh.

Pretty much my exact opinion.

 

[Chris Craig]

Hmm. I may have missed some details. Alot happened this summer.

so to provide a summary,

Out:
Dame(superstar, MVP contender)
Nurk(borderline all star vet)
Little(some potential)
Johnson(solid 3rd stringer)

In:
DA(borderline all star vet)
Brogdon(perennial 6th man)
Camara(high upside)
Williams(meh)
3 1sts
2 pick swaps

I don't know. Just seems like we didn't get as much as we should have when looking at other teams trades of their stars.


For the record, I was not for trading Dame.

Id have rather traded him 2 years ago(hindsight only opinion) or not at all and just run the course and let him be the best Blazer ever. I know he asked out, but I really think we could have brought his mind back if we would have refused to trade him and worked on more things this year to build around him. We didn't have to do it at the draft. He is on contract.

I do like Cronin and overall think he has done a good job thus far with the hand he has been dealt, but I think if we would not have caved into Dames demands, we might have been able to do alot more this trade deadline/offseason to build the best team around him he has seen.

We got screwed when Dame tried force us to trade him to only Miami. That took a lot off the table. Teams would have been willing to give more with more competition. Under the circumstances I think we got the best deal for him we could.

 

[Chris Craig]

We are going to have all those assets after Dame's time and likely Giannis's time in Milwaukee ends. Maybe they will both come here to join our developed guys and win one.

 

[robson]

So, I think we doing great. Last year with Dame was waste of both, Blazers and Dame's time.
Now, the main problem we have is who to trade after this season - Ant or Scoot? Hard decision, but it is good problem to have.
We got Grant and Brog to trade for more young potential. I still believe Ayton can be good piece with youngsters. We got nice backup bigs. We got Camara.
We got Mike to make draft decisions. We got draft picks.
I'm not really sure where is the problem.

 

[Chris Craig]

So, I think we doing great. Last year with Dame was waste of both, Blazers and Dame's time.
Now, the main problem we have is who to trade after this season - Ant or Scoot? Hard decision, but it is good problem to have.
We got Grant and Brog to trade for more young potential. I still believe Ayton can be good piece with youngsters. We got nice backup bigs. We got Camara.
We got Mike to make draft decisions. We got draft picks.
I'm not really sure where is the problem.

Not a good problem to have. We aren't the type of franchise that can afford to keep trading good players away and hoping more will come. We really need to work on finding and keeping talented players. We can't just keep drafting guys trading them. We also have to be careful not to get into a position where we have to overpay a bunch of underperforming players in order to keep them around.

For a small market franchise like ours that has trouble with bringing in big names free agents or even good ones and trouble keeping players around after we trade for them...or again having to overpay those players, we have to strike a delicate balance. We have to be somewhat quick on our rebuild, a couple seasons or it's going to collapse in on us again.

 

[e_blazer]

This rebuild is like going to the dentist. You know you have to do it but you don't have to enjoy it. In fact it's downright unpleasant but in hindsight the best option.

That's the hope, but hardly a certainty. There's a lot of history of small market teams remaining lottery fodder for looooong periods of time. Rebuilds through the lottery have to net you a superstar in order to be a realistic pathway to contention. The Spurs have consistently had the luck to grab those types of players. The Blazers....not so much.

 

[robson]

Not a good problem to have. We aren't the type of franchise that can afford to keep trading good players away and hoping more will come. We really need to work on finding and keeping talented players. We can't just keep drafting guys trading them. We also have to be careful not to get into a position where we have to overpay a bunch of underperforming players in order to keep them around.

For a small market franchise like ours that has trouble with bringing in big names free agents or even good ones and trouble keeping players around after we trade for them...or again having to overpay those players, we have to strike a delicate balance. We have to be somewhat quick on our rebuild, a couple seasons or it's going to collapse in on us again.

I don't want "more". I want SF on the same level. We can't afford to keep Ant and Scoot and play them both + Sharpe. It's nonsense.

 

[wizenheimer]

my perspective is that I wanted Portland to make at least one honest effort to put a contender around Dame. Olshey never did that and neither did Cronin, IMO

but if Dame did ask out, I wanted Portland to also trade Nurkic, Grant, and Ant and actually launch a full rebuild instead of continue straddling the most convenient fences around.

I especially wanted the Blazers to STOP repeating mistakes of the past at the same time they recognized what the modern NBA was about. Meaning no undersized wings who can't defend; no overpaid C's; no injury prone big men. They don't appear to have learned any of those lessons

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

my perspective is that I wanted Portland to make at least one honest effort to put a contender around Dame. Olshey never did that and neither did Cronin, IMO

but if Dame did ask out, I wanted Portland to also trade Nurkic, Grant, and Ant and actually launch a full rebuild instead of continue straddling the most convenient fences around.

I especially wanted the Blazers to STOP repeating mistakes of the past at the same time they recognized what the modern NBA was about. Meaning no undersized wings who can't defend; no overpaid C's; no injury prone big men. They don't appear to have learned any of those lessons

This is it. Right here. Well put and this is my sinking feeling. If we are going to do it, do it all now. Stop straddling the fence/treading water. Swim to the shore, start over and take another dive into the deep end. But stop doing circles like a one footed duck in water.

I only see this changing with new ownership and i'm not sure we will see that anytime soon, or I think it would have already happened.

 

[Chris Craig]

I don't want "more". I want SF on the same level. We can't afford to keep Ant and Scoot and play them both + Sharpe. It's nonsense.

I'm not saying we can afford to pay them all. I'm saying we need to make very careful decisions for this to pan out.

 

[Cugel]

Imho dame is too old to be the best player on a team. Look at how many 34 yo lead a team to a ring. The list is short and is limited to goats. Dame is good but not even close to that good. The odds are stacked against success in such a scenario