Sorry Portland Timbers' fans

[SlyPokerDog]

but the PGE Park deal is only getting more ridiculous. It was bad enough that we are going to kick the baseball team out of a baseball stadium so we can turn the aging baseball stadium into a soccer stadium. And because the baseball team is now homeless we're going to build them a new baseball stadium.

But now it gets better, MLS is talking about changing the time of year when it plays so it's telling it's owners that they should start thinking about putting roofs over their soccer stadiums. LOL!!

So we're going to pay to change a baseball stadium into a soccer stadium but we still have to finish paying for the last remodel of the baseball stadium, plus we get to pay to build a new baseball stadium and then we get to pay to remodel the old baseball stadium that has been turned into a soccer stadium again so that it can have a roof over it.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Is PGE Park even structurally sound enough to have a roof put on top of it?

Major League Soccer in the winter -- under a roof? MLS commissioner Don Garber suggested to The Associated Press that the league needs to consider adding roofs to its stadiums to accommodate a possible scheduling switch. The MLS is exploring how to more closely align itself with the sport's international calendar to show it is listening to FIFA president Sepp Blatter as the United States bids to be host to the 2018 or '22 World Cup. Key to achieving that will be building more stadiums with roofs to protect against the worst of the American winter, Garber said.

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/123015

 

[SodaPopinski]

First off, PGE Park/Civic Stadium was never built to be a baseball stadium. It's true that's been its primary tenant, but that stadium is not for baseball fans.

Second, you'll have to excuse me while the complaints of Portland AAA baseball fans are falling on deaf ears. Where were these people when the Beavers were averaging less than 3,000 fans per game? Where were these people when the City of Portland was having very open, very public negotiations about this deal? Timbers fans have been showing up to soccer matches and city council meetings en masse to voice their support for professional soccer.

Third, as far as the roof issue goes, if you read what MLS is saying, they are talking about the stadiums in true winter climates. Denver. Boston. Columbus. Salt Lake City. Chicago.

Nobody is concerned about 18 inches of snow making pitch conditions impossible in Portland. The important thing is making sure the seats are mostly covered for optimal fan experience, which the plans for a remodeled PGE Park already incorporate.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

First off, PGE Park/Civic Stadium was never built to be a baseball stadium. It's true that's been its primary tenant, but that stadium is not for baseball fans.

Second, you'll have to excuse me while the complaints of Portland AAA baseball fans are falling on deaf ears. Where were these people when the Beavers were averaging less than 3,000 fans per game? Where were these people when the City of Portland was having very open, very public negotiations about this deal? Timbers fans have been showing up to soccer matches and city council meetings en masse to voice their support for professional soccer.

Third, as far as the roof issue goes, if you read what MLS is saying, they are talking about the stadiums in true winter climates. Denver. Boston. Columbus. Salt Lake City. Chicago.

Nobody is concerned about 18 inches of snow making pitch conditions impossible in Portland. The important thing is making sure the seats are mostly covered for optimal fan experience, which the plans for a remodeled PGE Park already incorporate.

LOL! I'm aware of the history of PGE Park. The site was originally a small stadium for the MAC Club. It's was rebuilt into a baseball stadium since the 1950's. It's a baseball stadium.

But the worst part of this entire argument/process is that it never should have been Soccer vs Baseball at PGE Park. It has not been a very public negotiation. The contract to remodel the stadium is a no bid contract that went to an out of state company and was signed before the public ever got to have a say in it. Adams and Randy have played things fast and loose with the facts, costs and every other detail about this.

A remodeled PGE Park will not be up to the standards of other MLS stadiums. It won't have enough bathrooms, concessions and amenities. Why not leave PGE Park alone and just build a new soccer stadium? There are some nice areas available. The downtown post office wants to move their main branch to the airport. That site could be available. Industrial NW is available, you know that dying industrial area that sits between Forrest Park and the Willamete River. The area that the Wall Street Journal said was the most valuable under developed commercial real estate on the west coast in an article a few years ago. Or there is the Portland Meadows/Delta Park site.

Here's an idea, why not build the Timbers a new soccer stadium? Why spend $ on remodeling a baseball stadium and building a new baseball stadium when you could just build a soccer stadium?

 

[SodaPopinski]

Because it's significantly less expensive to remodel PGE Park into a soccer-specific stadium and share with Portland State football than it is to build an entirely new stadium from the ground up.

That's the simple answer.

 

[Wheels]

I'm guessing MLS is talking different times of year, to better coencide (sp?) with the Premier League, and other European leagues?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Because it's significantly less expensive to remodel PGE Park into a soccer-specific stadium and share with Portland State football than it is to build an entirely new stadium from the ground up.

That's the simple answer.

Really? You know this because how? The last major construction project that Sam Adams oversaw came in at 4x over budget. Not 4%, not 40% but 400% over budget. It was budgeted to be a $15million project and when it was done it ended up costing $57mill.

His idea for a for an inexpensive pedestrian/bicycle only bridge across the Willamete river just got canceled because the bids to build it came in 60% higher than projected.

Just last month Paulsen went to the city of Beaverton and told them it would cost $30mill to build a new baseball stadium, the city asked for preliminary bids and the price they get back is $45-50mill.

And so you're telling me that with no actual architectural plans drawn up, just drawings of what an artist thinks the completed project will look like and a no bid construction contract that's been already given to an out of state company you know what this project is going to cost?



Again, I'm not anti soccer or anti MLS. I just think that our mayor and Leonard don't have a clue as to what they are doing and I don't think that all of the options have been looked. In 2001 the city spent $35 million to upgrade and improve PGE Park (which we still owe $26mill on). Now they are telling us they can convert it into an entirely different type of stadium for $31 million. Does that make sense to you?

Toronto just built a MLS soccer only stadium for $60mill. A brand new stadium. Soccer only. MLS.

But you think $50mill for a minor league baseball stadium and lets go ahead and say that it will only cost $31mill to remodel PGE Park (which is laughable). It will still be and always be a converted baseball stadium. But you think that is cheaper than building a new soccer stadium...

Simple answers are fun but not always accurate.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I'm guessing MLS is talking different times of year, to better coencide (sp?) with the Premier League, and other European leagues?

Yes, you are guessing correctly.

How are you Wheels?

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

See, if they stick to my plan of truning the MC into a +/- 25,000 covered stadium for football/soccer, then all our problems would be solved.

 

[Wheels]

Yes, you are guessing correctly.

How are you Wheels?

I'm just fine and dandy Thank ya. Getting pumped for the season.. and pumped about my Football teams doing well. Its crazy how long ago the Boise St game seems lol. How the hell have you been?

 

[Wheels]

See, if they stick to my plan of truning the MC into a +/- 25,000 covered stadium for football/soccer, then all our problems would be solved.

interesting thought actually.

 

[SodaPopinski]

Bottom line ... remodeling PGE for soccer is the cheapest option. Keeping the Beavers in a 25,000 seat stadium when they are drawing 2,750 a game is ridiculous. These options have all been discussed. For months. The NIMBY's are being loud now, but their points are even less valid now than they were during the negotiation process when they were all shot down months ago.

I suggest you go to the city of Portland web site and look at some of the council meeting minutes from back in March when this was decided.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I'm just fine and dandy Thank ya. Getting pumped for the season.. and pumped about my Football teams doing well. Its crazy how long ago the Boise St game seems lol. How the hell have you been?

A couple of losses by some teams and Boise St and the Ducks could meet up again for the national championship, lol!!

Doing better, I had the flu end of last week/weekend. Not sure if it was N1H1 but it sucked.

 

[Wheels]

A couple of losses by some teams and Boise St and the Ducks could meet up again for the national championship, lol!!

Doing better, I had the flu end of last week/weekend. Not sure if it was N1H1 but it sucked.

lol I wouldnt mind another shot at BSU, this is a different team than week 1. But I also said that a few weeks after last loss to them lol. But I'll take a hopeful Rose Bowl berth against Iowa probably.

That sucks about the flu.. I had it a few weeks ago and yes it sucked big time. Fortunately not Pig flu though. Gonna be at the RG on Tuesday?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Bottom line ... remodeling PGE for soccer is the cheapest option. Keeping the Beavers in a 25,000 seat stadium when they are drawing 2,750 a game is ridiculous. These options have all been discussed. For months. The NIMBY's are being loud now, but their points are even less valid now than they were during the negotiation process when they were all shot down months ago.

I suggest you go to the city of Portland web site and look at some of the council meeting minutes from back in March when this was decided.

I have looked at this and read the city's website. And again, how do we know this is the cheapest option? I just gave you real numbers and this is what you come back with? And I'm a NIMBY because I think the Timbers, the fans and the taxpayers would be better served by building the Timbers a brand new stadium? The points I bring up were brought up in March also, they were valid then and they are valid now.

Let me ask you this, if there wasn't a chance for us to get a MLS franchise would you really give a chit how few people went to Beaver's games? If PGE Park can pay it's debts and Paulsen can make a profit does it really matter that there were only 2,700 people in a 25,000 seat stadium?

Again, I'm not being anti soccer which is what you are trying to turn this into. This stadium deal doesn't make sense. We can have a new state of the art soccer stadium for less or the same amount of money as it would to convert an old stadium and build a new one.

If Adams and Randy would have been in charge when the Rose Garden was being built they would have instead expanded the MC for the Blazers and built a smaller arena for the Winterhawks. It might have been cheaper but do you think we'd still have the Blazers in Portland today? And if we did, do you think no matter much they spent on remodeling the MC it would be as nice as the RG?

So you think spending $50mill on a new baseball stadium so 2,700 fans can not feel so alone is a good use of taxpayer money? Hey, why not spend anymore money on those 2,700 people and spend $70million on a facility for the 25,000 that turnout to see the Timbers?

Oh wait, that makes me a NIMBY.

 

[RR7]

They can build it in my backyard, if you don't want it in yours. I doubt it would make for exciting soccer with suck a small field. And spectators would be limited to people peering ou tmy back windows, but I would allow it. For a small fee.

 

[porkchopexpress]

Yes, you are guessing correctly.

How are you Wheels?

Not exactly correct. They are thinking of changing the schedule to better fit with FIFA's international schedule. UEFA leagues have off weekends for World Cup qualifying, MLS does not. Not to mention the month next season where all of the best MLS players who are on the National team will be in South Africa.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

They can build it in my backyard, if you don't want it in yours. I doubt it would make for exciting soccer with suck a small field. And spectators would be limited to people peering ou tmy back windows, but I would allow it. For a small fee.

How many millions of dollars would you want from the city to make this happen?

 

[Wheels]

Not exactly correct. They are thinking of changing the schedule to better fit with FIFA's international schedule. UEFA leagues have off weekends for World Cup qualifying, MLS does not. Not to mention the month next season where all of the best MLS players who are on the National team will be in South Africa.

UEFA was the other part I forgot. Thank ya

 

[SodaPopinski]

Two things:

1) Close-in Portland is absolutely integral to the success of Major League Soccer. All of the most successful stadia in the MLS are in the central city. Suburban McDonald-land Stadium is not going to give the team its best chance at long-term success.

2) Following #1, there are zero cost-effective options for building a brand new stadium from the ground up close-in Portland. All of the possible sites (Post Office on NW Hoyt, Terminal 1, Memorial Coliseum, PPS Blanchard Site) are politically or financially impossible.

Not to mention Merritt Paulson has a lease agreement with the city of Portland to make rent payments on PGE Park. I'd think he'd want the most financially viable use of that park as possible. Keeping the Beavers in there to play in an unoccupied cavern while building a new $70 million facility out between a Target and a Best Buy for a soccer team is not only more expensive, it's also stupid.

 

[SodaPopinski]

Not exactly correct. They are thinking of changing the schedule to better fit with FIFA's international schedule. UEFA leagues have off weekends for World Cup qualifying, MLS does not. Not to mention the month next season where all of the best MLS players who are on the National team will be in South Africa.

Not to mention if the league wants to boast great players from Europe, they have to contend with the Euro Championships in even-numbered years between World Cups. And if they want great players from South America, they have to contend with the Copa America tournament in 2011, 2015, 2019, 2023, etc. Both of those tournaments, like the World Cup, take place during the middle of the MLS season.

 

[RR7]

Zero cost effective options? If we were not getting MLS, the Beavers would continue to play in PGE, I would assume. If they want 30 million to renovate PGE, and another 50 million for a minor league baseball field, why not spend all 80 million of that, or less, possibly, on a brand new soccer only stadium? And PGE can be the cavernous baseball stadium it currently is.

SPD, I'll do it for 750,000. Peanuts!

 

[SlyPokerDog]

SPD, I'll do it for 750,000. Peanuts!

Deal! But only if I get the beer concessions.

 

[MARIS61]

They can build it in my backyard, if you don't want it in yours. I doubt it would make for exciting soccer with suck a small field. And spectators would be limited to people peering ou tmy back windows, but I would allow it. For a small fee.

Your back yard should be more than large enough to hold any serious soccer fans who might occasionally show up.

 

[PapaG]

Not exactly correct. They are thinking of changing the schedule to better fit with FIFA's international schedule. UEFA leagues have off weekends for World Cup qualifying, MLS does not. Not to mention the month next season where all of the best MLS players who are on the National team will be in South Africa.

Brilliant idea! Make weekends offlimits, and make the MLS games weeknights only. Who is running that league? That won't work in Portland, I can guarantee it. A bad ecomony, a struggling league, and let's move the games away from the days when families can make a trip to the pitch.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Two things:

1) Close-in Portland is absolutely integral to the success of Major League Soccer. All of the most successful stadia in the MLS are in the central city. Suburban McDonald-land Stadium is not going to give the team its best chance at long-term success.

I only mentioned one site that was out of the core Portland area and that was Delta/Portland Meadows.

2) Following #1, there are zero cost-effective options for building a brand new stadium from the ground up close-in Portland. All of the possible sites (Post Office on NW Hoyt, Terminal 1, Memorial Coliseum, PPS Blanchard Site) are politically or financially impossible.

That is absolutely not true. There are sites available large enough and (relatively) inexpensive enough to make a new stadium economically feasible. Ironically enough the site where the old Vaughn street stadium once stood (that's where the Beavers use to play before they moved to PGE Park) is available. Also the area south of OMSI on the east side is available. Plus others.

Not to mention Merritt Paulson has a lease agreement with the city of Portland to make rent payments on PGE Park. I'd think he'd want the most financially viable use of that park as possible. Keeping the Beavers in there to play in an unoccupied cavern while building a new $70 million facility out between a Target and a Best Buy for a soccer team is not only more expensive, it's also stupid.

Okay now this is where you get pretty comical, Paulsen is going to have a lease agreement anywhere his teams play. Unless he's planning on having games in his backyard they have to pay. Now lets think about financial viability for a little bit, you have a baseball team that gets 3000 people attending a game. You could either keep them in their current home and current lease or you could move them to a new $50mill stadium that will have a higher lease. Why would you think that moving the Beavers to a more expensive facility would make any financial sense what so ever?

But what you refuse to recognize is that no matter how money you put into PGE Park it's still going to be an inferior facility. Compared to other MLS facilities it's not going to be that nice. Why do you think PA didn't remodel the MC for half the price instead of building a new arena? Why do you think other teams build new instead of remodel old? Because when it's all said and done it's just putting lipstick on a pig. Just how long do you think the Timbers are going to stay at PGE Park? If the team is a success (which it will be) Paulsen is going to be looking for a new home in 10 years or less.

 

[RR7]

I bet they win the MLS cup in year 3, and he's looking for a new stadium.

The thing about a new stadium, this year, Qwest Field is hosting the MLS Cup, or whatever their championship game is called. It's like the SuperBowl in that it is at different cities each year. Will a renovated PGE Park get the championship game? Maybe so. I doubt it. A brand new stadium might, however.

 

[porkchopexpress]

Brilliant idea! Make weekends offlimits, and make the MLS games weeknights only. Who is running that league? That won't work in Portland, I can guarantee it. A bad ecomony, a struggling league, and let's move the games away from the days when families can make a trip to the pitch.

Way to totally miss the point. Did anyone say that they wouldn't play on weekends? Did anyone say that they'd only have weeknight games? Not sure where you read either of those things. European leagues have off weeks (like a full league bye week) every so often during World Cup qualifying so their teams don't have to play without their best players.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Bumping for Sodapopski,

Like I said, these stadium deals don't make sense.