OT Terminator - Paradoxes - Questions - Debate

[Chris Craig]

I've been watching the Terminator movies and been thinking about the time lines as to how it all fits together, the paradox with John Connor sending back his father to make sure he is born, and the changes of technology.

First off it seems that Skynet (Genesis, Legion) or whatever AI gets created always must either lose the war or it's always a stalemate because they continue to send terminators back in time to try and change the odds, which never seems to work.

I have an idea of how the timeline all fits together. I'll share that later.

I wanted to start with the paradox at hand in the first movie. Judgment day happens on August 29th, 1997. John Connor leads the resistance to near victory. The machines either about to lose or at least in a stale mate, sends a terminator back to 1984 to kill Sarah Connor and stop John from being born, in doing so the humans sneakily send back Kyle Reese, who it turns out impregnates Sarah and becomes the father of John. They destroy the Terminator accept an arm and chip which leads to Skynets creation in the future and a continued judgement day of August 29th, 1997.

So, first off does Kyle Reese always comeback and is thus always John's father, or did John have a different father to begin with, and then sent back Reese who fathered a different John Connor, but one still poised to be the leader of the resistance?

Because otherwise how is there a John to send back Kyle Reese to father him. I guess that's the nature of paradoxes though.

Now, the other part. If we accept T1 as a casual loop paradox, then Skynet and the humans sending back a T-800 and Reese create Skynet and John Connor for the future espoused by Reese to happen. That really nothing is changed after T1, evidenced by judgment day remaining on August 29th, 1997.

Yet, something did change. Maybe. More advanced terminators. In T-2, Skynet about to lose or stalemate yet again as the future replays itself from the future if the first movie, sends a T-1000 to 1994 and the humans send a T-800 to combat it, after both sent the T-800 and Reese to 1984.

Now, Skynet didn't send a T-1000 to 1984 in T1, they sent a T-800. Did a T-1000 not exist in the original future? Did the chip and arm being found lead to it's creation, when the arm and chip were always going to be found to create the Skynet of T1 anyway?

Another question. Is Skynet, AI becoming sentient and reaching singularity always inevitable? Isn't technology always going to evolve to eventually reach that point?

It does seem like the continued sending back of terminators to to try and change things is benefitting Skynet/AI. Judgement day gets pushed back, allowing technology more time to evolve, and thus more and more advanced terminators. Yet, the Humans keep winning, and the AI keeps sending back Terminators to change it.

It can't help humans that the machines they will maybe inevitably have to fight over and over keep getting stronger. The war should be getting harder and harder for the humans to win and yet they find a way.

That's one of the most interesting themes of the movies. Humanities relationship and dependency on machines. We need machines to destroy machines. But also most of the things we depend on to survive, we need machines.

In the future of Dark Fate, the Machines instead of setting off all our nukes, just fucking turned the power off. That sent shit all to hell without a bomb needed.

Any way I'll offer more thoughts including the complete timeline I came up with and look forward to debating these things. I know I have way too much time on my hands. Just thought it might be nice to debate about something besides politics for a bit.

 

[riverman]

I've been watching the Terminator movies and been thinking about the time lines as to how it all fits together, the paradox with John Connor sending back his father to make sure he is born, and the changes of technology.

First off it seems that Skynet (Genesis, Legion) or whatever AI gets created always must either lose the war or it's always a stalemate because they continue to send terminators back in time to try and change the odds, which never seems to work.

I have an idea of how the timeline all fits together. I'll share that later.

I wanted to start with the paradox at hand in the first movie. Judgment day happens on August 29th, 1997. John Connor leads the resistance to near victory. The machines either about to lose or at least in a stale mate, sends a terminator back to 1984 to kill Sarah Connor and stop John from being born, in doing so the humans sneakily send back Kyle Reese, who it turns out impregnates Sarah and becomes the father of John. They destroy the Terminator accept an arm and chip which leads to Skynets creation in the future and a continued judgement day of August 29th, 1997.

So, first off does Kyle Reese always comeback and is thus always John's father, or did John have a different father to begin with, and then sent back Reese who gathered a different John Connor, but one still poised to be the leader of the resistance?

Because otherwise how is there a John to send back Kyle Reese to father him. I guess that's the nature of paradoxes though.

Now, the other part. If we accept T1 as a casual loop paradox, then Skynet and the humans sending back a T-800 and Reese create Skynet and John Connor for the future espoused by Reese to happen. That really nothing is changed after T1, evidenced by judgment day remaining on August 29th, 1997.

Yet, something did change. Maybe. More advanced terminators. In T-2, Skynet about to lose or stalemate yet again as the future replays itself from the future if the first movie, sends a T-1000 to 1994 and the humans send a T-800 to combat it, after both sent the T-800 and Reese to 1984.

Now, Skynet didn't send a T-1000 to 1984 in T1, they sent a T-800. Did a T-1000 not exist in the original future? Did the chip and arm being found lead to it's creation, when the arm and chip were always going to be found to create the Skynet of T1 anyway?

Another question. Is Skynet, AI becoming sentient and reaching singularity always inevitable? Isn't technology always going to evolve to eventually reach that point?

It does seem like the continued sending back of terminators to to try and change things is benefitting Skynet/AI. Judgement day gets pushed back, allowing technology more time to evolve, and thus more and more advanced terminators. Yet, the Humans keep winning, and the AI keeps sending back Terminators to change it.

It can't help humans that the machines they will maybe inevitably have to fight over and over keep getting stronger. The war should be getting harder and harder for the humans to win and yet they find a way.

That's one of the most interesting themes of the movies. Humanities relationship and dependency on machines. We need machines to destroy machines. But also most of the things we depend on to survive, we need machines.

In the future of Dark Fate, the Machines instead of setting off all our nukes, just fucking turned the power off. That sent shit all to hell without a bomb needed.

Any way I'll offer more thoughts including the complete timeline I came up with and look forward to debating these things. I know I have way too much time on my hands. Just thought it might be nice to debate about something besides politics for a bit.

NERD ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[THE HCP]

NERDS!!!!!!!

 

[THE HCP]

Wish they had done a better job on the later ones.

 

[Phatguysrule]

 

[Chris Craig]

Terminator Timeline:

(Includes T1-T6 and TSCC)

August 29, 1997 - Judgment Day occurs as the AI Skynet becomes sentient, reaches singularity and launches a nuclear war in order to destroy humans.

2029 - A human resistance led by John Connor reaches near victory over the machines. In a last ditch effort, the machines send back a T-800 to 1984 to kill Connor's mother Sarah. The resistance uses the machines technology to send back Kyle Reese to protect her.

1984 - Kyle Reese successfully helps Sarah Connor survive and father's John Connor with her. Before he died, Reese imparts vital information to Sarah about the future and her son's role in leading the resistance.

Two parts of the Terminator are left behind in 1984, the arm and chip. Thus enabling the future of the first movie, wherein Skynet exists and there is a John Connor to lead the fight against.

Said future plays out again with the same result. The resistance wins or near wins. A T-800 and Kyle Reese are sent to 1984. A T-1000 (Which now exists due either to events of the first movie, the further evolution of technology, or the events of Genesis in which a T-1000 travels to 1973/1984) is sent to 1995 to kill a 10 year old John Connor. The resistance again sends a counterpart, this time a reconfigured T-800 back to 1995 to protect John.

The events of Terminator 2 play out.

Sarah Connor realizes Judgment Day is still August 29, 1997. It has not been stopped by the events of the first movie. With the help of her son, the T-800, and Myles Dyson she destroys the the Terminator arm and chip left from 1984 and all files and research attached to it. The Trio then successfully destroys the T-1000 and the T-800 as to not leave any trace of Skynet.

This pushes Judgment Day back to July 25, 2003/04. The timeline plays out. Judgment Day happens. John Connor leads the resistance once more and though Skynet succeeds in killing John Connor during the war (T3), he was there enough to share needed intel/ strategy and affect a victory, led by his bride Kathrine Brewster.

Once again on the edge of defeat Skynet having had more time to advance it's technology sends back a T-X to 2003 to hunt and kill members of the resistance including Brewster and to ensure JDay. Kathrine Brewster reprograms the T-800 that killed John, sends it back to protect the resistance and the events of T3 play out.

John Connor comes out of hiding years after his mother Sarah died of Cancer, and faces off against the T-X along with Brewster and the T-800. Though Skynet is successful in killing a few of the resistance members, Connor and Brewster make it to a bunker just before Skynet comes online, thanks to the T-X and initiates nuclear war and thus judgment day.

The timeline plays out. John Connor leads the resistance. But, unlike the last time around, the humans have begun to better adapt, creating human/machine hybrids to help beat the machines who are becoming ever stronger and deadlier. A prisoner named Marcus Wright becomes one of the first humans to be a test subject with this new technology, and becomes half machine, half human.

Wright fights along side Kyle Reese who Skynet now knows is Connors father and is targeting and John Connor, who again is almost killed in battle, but Wright gives Connor his heart and he survived to lead the resistance to victory once more.

Skynet now very desperate and on the edge of defeat once again sends a T-888 (Cromartie) to 1999 to kill teenager John Connor and his mother. John Connor sends back Cameron, a Terminator of unknown destination to protect them. The events of Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles begins.

Sarah, John, and the Terminator Cameron use a hidden time machine to jump to 2007, accidentally bringing the T-888 with them. In jumping through time, Sarah who died of Cancer two years earlier, is instead still alive in 2007.

Judgment Day is now in 2011. During their journey to destroy Skynet in the presence, they learn the AI has sent back other terminators to ensure the creation of Skynet and to kill future resistance members. The group is aided by Derek Reese, brother of Kyle who has also been sent back to help by future John.

The kill as many Terminators as they can, disrupting Skynet's plan. During this time a rogue resistance fighter who has grown to disdain future John Connors value of reprogrammed terminators, has come back to try and separate him from those views. It is also ascertained, a Terminator went as far back as 1920, and possibly helped hasten technology advances). There is also a group of Terminators who have learned to value life and are against the machines future war against man and seek to thwart it. They are led by a T-1000 and are aided by an ex FBI agent.

After much ado, the timeline plays out. Judgment Day again happens. Again, John Connor leads the resistance and the machines as always lose, or are near defeat.

Skynet as yet another desperate grasp sends a T-1000 to 1973 to kill Sarah Connor as a child. Skynet is unaware that a T-800 was also sent to 1973, sometime before, possibly after the events of T2 or TSCC by an older version of Sarah Connor to protect her younger self, having deduced the possibility that Skynet would come after her younger self. Skynet also instead of Killing John this time, take him over and turn him into an advanced terminator, the T-5000.

The T-1000 kills her family but cannot find Sarah. Sarah Connor is saved by the T-800 who she comes to call pops. He raises her, telling her everything about judgment day and the coming war.

After being told about the events of 1984, Sarah and the T-800 are ready. She is no longer the doe eyed innocent waitress, but a fighter. They easily dispatch the T-800.

The T-1000 from 1973 has been waiting too. It is aware of Kyle Reese's travel back It tries to kill Kyle before he can father John. Kyle is rescued by Sarah and Pops. They lure the T-1000 and destroy it (Though maybe not enough as remnants may have been found, leading to it's future creation and presence in T2).

Kyle Reese surprised that Sarah is not in need of help, has also had memories from his younger self, as the whole paradox of the first Terminator movie, is nearly undone. He knows the new Judgment Day will be in 2017 and that Skynet will be called Genysis instead.

Sarah and Kyle travel to 2017 via a scrapped together time machine. They are confronted by the T-5000 John Connor who please with them to accept the machines and become part terminator like him.

They give him the finger and protect younger Kyle, then take out the T-5000 (John Connor) and nearly destroy Skynet/Genesis.

John Connor is eventually born and Judgment Day eventually happens. He again leads the resistance to victory or near victory again.

Skynet sends in another last ditch effort or had previously sent another T-800 to the 1990's. It eventually tracks down young John Connor and kills him. It sends other terminators that are destroyed one after the next by Sarah Connor at the instruction of the T-800 who killed John and without purpose is now regretful and has learned to value life.

With no future John Connor there is no future Skynet as the paradox had truly been broken. Either Skynet thought it could still exist or conceded with a neither of us will exist then dammit senario after repeated inability to beat a resistance led by Connor.

Terminator Dark Fate plays out - Without John Connor and Skynet, technology still inevitably advances. A new AI called Legion turns against humans, but instead dropping nukes, it just turns the power switch off and a technology dependent human race is thrown into chaos. A war between machines and humans erupts. Humans again use machine parts to turn themselves into part machine to combat the cyborgs. They are led by Dani Ramos, a fighter, who like John Connor values life. The resistance is close to winning.

Legion sends back a Rev-9 terminator to kill Ramos. A half machine, half human soldier Grace goes back after it to protect Dani.

Legion is unaware of Sarah Connor and an aged T-800. Together they help Dani defeat the Rev -9. Grace is mortally injured in the fight. The T-800 is destroyed to stop Skynet from existing again. Dani and Sarah find young Grace, and hope to figure out a way to save her future self and take down Legion.

Legions move.


Footnote: It is ironic that Skynet in it's blind compulsion to kill John Connor at all costs, it created it's own downfall, Sarah Connor. That and it ended the paradox that brought it, like John Connor into existence.

 

[SlyPokerDog]