The Book of Mormon (the book, not the musical)

[KingSpeed]

True or not true? Why? Why believe A New Hope and the Empire Strikes Back but not Return of the Jedi?

 

[D-Rock]

True or not true? Why? Why believe A New Hope and the Empire Strikes Back but not Return of the Jedi?

TRUE! I have prayed about its truthfulness and have had confirmation from the Holy Spirit that it is true.

 

[TripTango]

All evidence that I have seen points to false. The Hoth battle scene is lightyears beyond those silly Ewoks.

 

[magnifier661]

All evidence that I have seen points to false. The Hoth battle scene is lightyears beyond those silly Ewoks.

hear hear!

 

[D-Rock]

All evidence that I have seen points to false. The Hoth battle scene is lightyears beyond those silly Ewoks.

I've heard the arguments before, but I'm curious what evidence you've come across that points to its falsity? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just interested in your experience.

 

[TripTango]

I've heard the arguments before, but I'm curious what evidence you've come across that points to its falsity? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just interested in your experience.

I subscribe to the belief that the amount of evidence required for any claim should be commensurate to the scale of the claim being made, and I simply have never seen any evidence that comes anywhere close to sufficient for Joseph Smith's story. I don't fault others for believing him or for following his teachings, and by and large I've found LDS folks to be good, friendly individuals, but I see no real reason to accept his book as fact.

 

[MadeFromDust]

[video=youtube;n3BqLZ8UoZk]

I think it's also important to note that Joseph Smith was known as a great storyteller in his lifetime.

 

[TripTango]

All of those goddess-wives look EXACTLY THE SAME. Talk about a wasted opportunity...

 

[magnifier661]

[video=youtube;n3BqLZ8UoZk]

I think it's also important to note that Joseph Smith was known as a great storyteller in his lifetime.

Is this for real?

 

[THE HCP]

THIS is exactly why I can never be friends or hang out with anybody on S2.... A whole 'nother level of geek!

 

[huevonkiller]

[video=youtube;n3BqLZ8UoZk]

I think it's also important to note that Joseph Smith was known as a great storyteller in his lifetime.

What a disturbing video, is this accurate? How unfortunate.

 

[Natebishop3]

I've had mormons try to explain it to me and it just comes off as a cult, although I'm sure Catholicism probably would seem like a cult too if it hadn't been around so long.

 

[huevonkiller]

Fair enough.

 

[Natebishop3]

The part that I had the most trouble with was the council of elders or whatever, and how there's the one guy at the top who is "chosen" to speak directly to god. And that's the guy who talks to every temple on TV once a year or something like that. Maybe some mormons from the community could set me straight on that, but that's the gist of what I was told.

 

[The Professional Fan]

"Mormon Jesus" looks like Jesus.

 

[KingSpeed]

I subscribe to the belief that the amount of evidence required for any claim should be commensurate to the scale of the claim being made, and I simply have never seen any evidence that comes anywhere close to sufficient for Joseph Smith's story. I don't fault others for believing him or for following his teachings, and by and large I've found LDS folks to be good, friendly individuals, but I see no real reason to accept his book as fact.

Why accept the Bible and not the Book of Mormon?

 

[TripTango]

Why accept the Bible and not the Book of Mormon?

Who said I accept the Bible?

 

[tlongII]

Why accept the Bible and not the Book of Mormon?

It's older. Older things are better.

 

[MadeFromDust]

Why accept the Bible and not the Book of Mormon?

The Bible is attested to by history, prophecies, archaeology, historians, and the historical Jesus event. The Book of Mormon is attested by one man who claims to have found secret hidden golden tablets and is known for his tall tales.

 

[KingSpeed]

The Bible is attested to by history, prophecies, archaeology, historians, and the historical Jesus event. The Book of Mormon is attested by one man who claims to have found secret hidden golden tablets and is known for his tall tales.

Good answer

 

[TripTango]

The Bible is attested to by history, prophecies, archaeology, historians, and the historical Jesus event. The Book of Mormon is attested by one man who claims to have found secret hidden golden tablets and is known for his tall tales.

None of the Biblical evidence you mention support the actual supernatural EVENTS of the Bible (the creation stories, the pillar of salt, the flaming hand on the wall, the various miracles performed by Jesus and his followers, etc...). This doesn't mean they didn't happen, simply that we don't have any evidence (outside of the Bible itself) that they did. The fact that there is so much less to critique regarding the actual authors of the books of the Bible is at least partially due to the fact that we have almost no information about them. If we had full biographies for the many authors of the old and new testaments as we do for Joseph Smith, who knows how many character flaws we might find that would cause us to question their accounts?

 

[MadeFromDust]

None of the Biblical evidence you mention support the actual supernatural EVENTS of the Bible (the creation stories, the pillar of salt, the flaming hand on the wall, the various miracles performed by Jesus and his followers, etc...). This doesn't mean they didn't happen, simply that we don't have any evidence (outside of the Bible itself) that they did. The fact that there is so much less to critique regarding the actual authors of the books of the Bible is at least partially due to the fact that we have almost no information about them. If we had full biographies for the many authors of the old and new testaments as we do for Joseph Smith, who knows how many character flaws we might find that would cause us to question their accounts?

That's where faith comes into play, you can't really prove something that happened thousands of years ago. If Joseph Smith lived in 1000 BC chances are we'd know little to nothing about him, and Mormonism would likely have never taken off. There's not a ton of information about the books of the Bible but there are findings that back its authenticity. The dead sea scrolls which were found in 1946 (I believe) are huge and confirm that the Bible has not been altered since the Jesus event. Christians before then were heavily scrutinized for changing the scriptures to make them appear to be prophecies for Jesus, because they were SO accurate and telling. But that is not the case. A lot of people don't believe the bible because of the reasons you stated, but after studying it and doing research on it's historicity I believe it to be the inspired Word of God. Not to mention it changed my life

 

[TripTango]

That's where faith comes into play, you can't really prove something that happened thousands of years ago. If Joseph Smith lived in 1000 BC chances are we'd know little to nothing about him, and Mormonism would likely have never taken off. There's not a ton of information about the books of the Bible but there are findings that back its authenticity. The dead sea scrolls which were found in 1946 (I believe) are huge and confirm that the Bible has not been altered since the Jesus event. Christians before then were heavily scrutinized for changing the scriptures to make them appear to be prophecies for Jesus, because they were SO accurate and telling. But that is not the case. A lot of people don't believe the bible because of the reasons you stated, but after studying it and doing research on it's historicity I believe it to be the inspired Word of God. Not to mention it changed my life

I totally support the positive impacts that the Bible, the book of Mormon, and other holy books around the world can have on their believers -- there's is certainly no denying the fact that for many, personal religious experiences have been life-saving events.

I suspect that what you mean by "authenticity" may be different than what I and others mean, however. I believe that the Old Testament books have been relatively unaltered since Jesus' lifetime. However, the gospels themselves were not formally written and compiled for DECADES after the reported birth and death of Jesus. I don't know about you, but I have trouble believing some eyewitness accounts of amazing events even mere days after they were supposed to have happened. In the case of the gospel stories, some of them had been discussed and passed around by early Christians for up to 70 years after Jesus' death before being formally written down. 70 years! Even the earliest estimates of 20-30 years after Jesus' death is too much for me to swallow -- these aren't unbiased observations taken down immediately by eyewitnesses; they are collections of oral tradition passed around by believers that were later formally written and selected for inclusion in the New Testament.

Again, none of this is evidence that they are false -- it's simply an explanation of why I can't accept them as more factually compelling than any other religious text.

 

[magnifier661]

Well where do I sign?!?! I would love to have millions of blond babes with big breasts to have sex with on a daily basis!

 

[MadeFromDust]

I totally support the positive impacts that the Bible, the book of Mormon, and other holy books around the world can have on their believers -- there's is certainly no denying the fact that for many, personal religious experiences have been life-saving events.

I suspect that what you mean by "authenticity" may be different than what I and others mean, however. I believe that the Old Testament books have been relatively unaltered since Jesus' lifetime. However, the gospels themselves were not formally written and compiled for DECADES after the reported birth and death of Jesus. I don't know about you, but I have trouble believing some eyewitness accounts of amazing events even mere days after they were supposed to have happened. In the case of the gospel stories, some of them had been discussed and passed around by early Christians for up to 70 years after Jesus' death before being formally written down. 70 years! Even the earliest estimates of 20-30 years after Jesus' death is too much for me to swallow -- these aren't unbiased observations taken down immediately by eyewitnesses; they are collections of oral tradition passed around by believers that were later formally written and selected for inclusion in the New Testament.

Again, none of this is evidence that they are false -- it's simply an explanation of why I can't accept them as more factually compelling than any other religious text.

Many of the books of the New Testament were written by eyewitnesses within the lifetime of other eyewitnesses. Being someone who believes the Bible to be the inspired Word of God, I don't put a lot of stock in time passing between the events of Jesus' life and the accounts of the Gospels. Call me biased, but I take the Bible as a whole and I believe that it as an entirety was inspired by God. If you believe the Old Testament documents were unchanged then what do you think of the hundreds of fulfilled prophecies that are contained in them?

2 Peter 1:16-21

The Trustworthy Prophetic Word

16 For we did not follow cleverly contrived myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ; instead, we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, a voice came to Him from the Majestic Glory:

This is My beloved Son.
I take delight in Him!

18 And we heard this voice when it came from heaven while we were with Him on the holy mountain. 19 So we have the prophetic word strongly confirmed. You will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp shining in a dismal place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 First of all, you should know this: No prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the will of man; instead, men spoke from God as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 15

Resurrection Essential to the Gospel

1 Now brothers, I want to clarify for you the gospel I proclaimed to you; you received it and have taken your stand on it. 2 You are also saved by it, if you hold to the message I proclaimed to you—unless you believed for no purpose.

3 For I passed on to you as most important what I also received:
that Christ died for our sins
according to the Scriptures,
4 that He was buried,
that He was raised on the third day
according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He appeared to Cephas,
then to the Twelve.
6 Then He appeared to over 500 brothers at one time;
most of them are still alive,
but some have fallen asleep.
7 Then He appeared to James,
then to all the apostles.
8 Last of all, as to one abnormally born,
He also appeared to me.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by God’s grace I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not ineffective. However, I worked more than any of them, yet not I, but God’s grace that was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it is I or they, so we proclaim and so you have believed.

^The central verses in this passage (3-8) were the original creed written the Jesus' apostles dating back to within 3 YEARS of His death.

2 Timothy 3:16-17


16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Once again it's a matter of faith and belief. I wasn't always a believer but at this point I'm beyond a doubt convinced that the Bible is the true Word of God. Take that for what it's worth...

 

[D-Rock]

[video=youtube;n3BqLZ8UoZk]

I think it's also important to note that Joseph Smith was known as a great storyteller in his lifetime.

Wow. It's been awhile since I've watched "educational" videos like this. I have to say that this was one of the more entertaining ones I've seen. Typical anti-Mormon propaganda. They take half truths of more obscure Mormon beliefs and twist them. I also found the word choice pretty funny. "Magic underwear," "Mormon Jesus," "Mormon future God," "Endless Celestial sex!" Then there was the completely false statements like, "Joseph did more for the salvation of man than Jesus." The REAL quote is, “Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.” (D&C 135:3) Which, if you understood Mormon doctrine (whether you believe it or not), you would understand why the statement was made.

I'm curious where it's documented that Joseph Smith was a great story teller (the implication, of course, being that he made the whole thing up)? Can it be found anywhere besides from sources that have a natural and obvious bias toward the man or the LDS church?

 

[D-Rock]

The part that I had the most trouble with was the council of elders or whatever, and how there's the one guy at the top who is "chosen" to speak directly to god. And that's the guy who talks to every temple on TV once a year or something like that. Maybe some mormons from the community could set me straight on that, but that's the gist of what I was told.

The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles? You're troubled by the same organization that existed in the church that Christ established? Each member of the Quorum of the Twelves is ordained as a prophet, seer, and revelator the same and the apostles in Christ's day were. They all speak to God in the same manner any prophet in the Old Testament spoke to Him. The "one chosen to speak directly to God" is the President (kind of like Peter was put in charge of the 12 apostles) of the church which, historically, has been whoever has been in the Quorum the longest. There's some more logistical stuff involved as well, but I doubt it would interest you.

 

[D-Rock]

"Mormon Jesus" looks like Jesus.

Interesting, isn't it? I can tell you he has other identical characteristics too.

 

[magnifier661]

The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles? You're troubled by the same organization that existed in the church that Christ established? Each member of the Quorum of the Twelves is ordained as a prophet, seer, and revelator the same and the apostles in Christ's day were. They all speak to God in the same manner any prophet in the Old Testament spoke to Him. The "one chosen to speak directly to God" is the President (kind of like Peter was put in charge of the 12 apostles) of the church which, historically, has been whoever has been in the Quorum the longest. There's some more logistical stuff involved as well, but I doubt it would interest you.

Hey D, you a mormon? Was it true that the principle of LSD was founded by the golden tabs found by John Smith?

 

[D-Rock]

The Bible is attested to by history, prophecies, archaeology, historians, and the historical Jesus event. The Book of Mormon is attested by one man who claims to have found secret hidden golden tablets and is known for his tall tales.

Actually, no. The Book of Mormon is attested to by every person who has a testimony of it. Additionally, there were several people who testified that they saw the plates Joseph translated from and/or had visions as Paul and Peter, James and John did of Heavenly messengers appearing to them. Those messengers testified as to the truthfulness and authenticity of the Book of Mormon and the Prophet Joseph Smith. Some of those individuals even assisted in the translation of the Book of Mormon.

Again with this tall tales stuff... I'm really curious if anyone can find a reference for this or any other character trait that gives reason to doubt him that doesn't come from a blatantly anti-Mormon source.