Politics The Inherent Pitfalls of Tribalism. Vol. 1: Dogwhistles.

[Propagandist]

We are clearly divided, as a nation, as a people, as a forum. And while we argue about things with snark and humor and venom, I am astonished at our inability to settle on consensus interpretations of things. We all navigate the world, we all recognize these things in our lives, and yet, when it comes to politics, we are so worried about the endgame or the bigger picture or pride or tribe to admit or concede even an inch.

The reality is racism is a problem these days. Dogwhistles are being blown with such ferocity that even nonracists can hear them. Muslims, Mexicans, blacks, and Jews have all received blows from the President. I'm here to talk it out. We should all be able to agree, whether a Lib or a Con, based on the things he does and says, that Trump is an actual racist.

Then, if this thread hasn't been removed, we can argue about what that means.

 

[MARIS61]

No, we are not divided as a nation.

Pure tripe, I have lost not a single liberal friend of mine, and they number in the hundreds. None of them have divorced over it, and nearly all of them admit at least that his economic policies have been highly effective for them and for those they hold dearly.

It's hilarious for you in particular to post this thread in a fake offer of truce and willingness to listen while demanding everyone to agree to your hateful and 100% unsupportable slur against our POTUS.

Go stew in your pot of misery, and know that Real Americans are having a very Merry Christmas this year.

 

[The Professional Fan]

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

No, we are not divided as a nation.

Pure tripe, I have lost not a single liberal friend of mine, and they number in the hundreds. None of them have divorced over it, and nearly all of them admit at least that his economic policies have been highly effective for them and for those they hold dearly.

It's hilarious for you in particular to post this thread in a fake offer of truce and willingness to listen while demanding everyone to agree to your hateful and 100% unsupportable slur against our POTUS.

Go stew in your pot of misery, and know that Real Americans are having a very Merry Christmas this year.

It's Christmas Eve so I'll be nice. Tomorrow night though lol.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

So I saw a black guy on MSNBC call President Trump something like "this thing"

Is that a dog whistle?

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

We are clearly divided, as a nation, as a people, as a forum. And while we argue about things with snark and humor and venom, I am astonished at our inability to settle on consensus interpretations of things. We all navigate the world, we all recognize these things in our lives, and yet, when it comes to politics, we are so worried about the endgame or the bigger picture or pride or tribe to admit or concede even an inch.

The reality is racism is a problem these days. Dogwhistles are being blown with such ferocity that even nonracists can hear them. Muslims, Mexicans, blacks, and Jews have all received blows from the President. I'm here to talk it out. We should all be able to agree, whether a Lib or a Con, based on the things he does and says, that Trump is an actual racist.

Then, if this thread hasn't been removed, we can argue about what that means.

I would agree that were pretty divided as a nation. The problem for me with talking about Racism is that I'm a white guy, yes when I see "racism" I want to call it out, but we do so much harm to minorities when we call things racism that aren't, because we start desensitizing people to actual racism. I feel like at times in this politically correct society that Caucasians go out of there way to "identify racism" and many of the attempts end up just sounding silly and people roll their eyes and it does damage to those who actually experience racism. This is a topic that IMO it's more valuable for us to listen than it is to talk about what's racist or not.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

I'm sorry it was "that thing"

 

[Hobbesarable]

I would agree that were pretty divided as a nation. The problem for me with talking about Racism is that I'm a white guy, yes when I see "racism" I want to call it out, but we do so much harm to minorities when we call things racism that aren't, because we start desensitizing people to actual racism. I feel like at times in this politically correct society that Caucasians go out of there way to "identify racism" and many of the attempts end up just sounding silly and people roll their eyes and it does damage to those who actually experience racism. This is a topic that IMO it's more valuable for us to listen than it is to talk about what's racist or not.

Racism is only a part of the problem. Much more complex than that.

 

[Hoopguru]

Racism is real and no respecter of persons or race. To me whats more important is that we teach young people the importance of respect, be considerate of all people regardless of race, religion or politics. Be helpful to those in need, once again regardless of race, religion or politics. The way I see it, is adults are not always careful how they display their prejudice's and not pro active enough in promoting respect and compassion. This goes for the media of all types including this one, think of the strangle hold they can have on kids.

 

[Propagandist]

No, we are not divided as a nation.

Pure tripe, I have lost not a single liberal friend of mine, and they number in the hundreds. None of them have divorced over it, and nearly all of them admit at least that his economic policies have been highly effective for them and for those they hold dearly.

It's hilarious for you in particular to post this thread in a fake offer of truce and willingness to listen while demanding everyone to agree to your hateful and 100% unsupportable slur against our POTUS.

Go stew in your pot of misery, and know that Real Americans are having a very Merry Christmas this year.

This is not a truce offering. I'm in the process of suggesting that you who support a racist are complicit in the resulting hatred and vitriol. You might not have lost friends, but you have undoubtedly lost their respect.

 

[Propagandist]

So I saw a black guy on MSNBC call President Trump something like "this thing"

Is that a dog whistle?

Not to clump you, but this seems to be a very common response......from my 2nd grader. The "he did it first" defense or whatever you're arguing is 100% bullshit. All such questions should be asked and answered within a vacuum. Unless, of course, you believe racism can be justified in response to name calling.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

Not to clump you, but this seems to be a very common response......from my 2nd grader. The "he did it first" defense or whatever you're arguing is 100% bullshit. All such questions should be asked and answered within a vacuum. Unless, of course, you believe racism can be justified in response to name calling.

It isn't a he did it first defense. It is a "any time a white person says or does anything negative towards a black person it is racism" defense.

Example....3 weeks ago a hispanic guy drives around back of the shop I work at. He wanders into the paint shop and asks the workers if he can buy broken headlights and other parts.

Then he comes and asks me and I tell him I can't sell parts and he has to go to the office and ask for the manager. I point him towards the office and tell him I have work to do.

Then he starts asking me about parts in my stall. I was courteous to him up to that point and that pissed me off.

I raised my voice and told him I already told him I couldn't sell parts and to go to the office and that he was taking up my time and he was starting to piss me off.

He stared at me and then wandered towards the door to the office like I told him to.

Ok, good. Go back to what I'm doing and then 20 seconds later realize he is bugging my coworkers asking them for parts.

Now I start yelling at him to get the fuck out of the shop and go to the office. We have hundreds of thousands of dollars in tools and parts all over the place and he can't wander around back here.

Did he think I was racist for screaming at him? Maybe and sure as shit if it was on video and people saw it they'd probably say the big bald Nazi was screaming at a brown guy.

FUCK THAT SHIT. I would scream at an old white woman if she did the same thing.


The point of the video is to show the double standard we live with today.

 

[Propagandist]

It isn't a he did it first defense. It is a "any time a white person says or does anything negative towards a black person it is racism" defense.

Example....3 weeks ago a hispanic guy drives around back of the shop I work at. He wanders into the paint shop and asks the workers if he can buy broken headlights and other parts.

Then he comes and asks me and I tell him I can't sell parts and he has to go to the office and ask for the manager. I point him towards the office and tell him I have work to do.

Then he starts asking me about parts in my stall. I was courteous to him up to that point and that pissed me off.

I raised my voice and told him I already told him I couldn't sell parts and to go to the office and that he was taking up my time and he was starting to piss me off.

He stared at me and then wandered towards the door to the office like I told him to.

Ok, good. Go back to what I'm doing and then 20 seconds later realize he is bugging my coworkers asking them for parts.

Now I start yelling at him to get the fuck out of the shop and go to the office. We have hundreds of thousands of dollars in tools and parts all over the place and he can't wander around back here.

Did he think I was racist for screaming at him? Maybe and sure as shit if it was on video and people saw it they'd probably say the big bald Nazi was screaming at a brown guy.

FUCK THAT SHIT. I would scream at an old white woman if she did the same thing.


The point of the video is to show the double standard we live with today.

You're worried about something different than I am...this is a totally different topic than Trump being a real-life racist, but let me share a story of my own to show you that I get it:

I have maybe a dozen stories like this from over the years, some concerning race, some concerning other things, but I think this one fits best. This one concerns homelessness. A homeless man is sitting at my café in the outside seats and I head out to tell him to get the fuck out. Literally. I walk out and say "get the fuck out of here" and some dude is like "I'm going to buy him a cup of coffee, so he can sit here." I'm like "no, you're not." And the dude just goes off on how the homeless guy is a person too and needs sustenance and all that stuff and I just turn around and tell the homeless guy to get moving and the dude calls me a fascist (literally did this) and leaves.

The dude didn't trust me to be a good person, and at the time, I didn't realize that I needed to worry about his interpretation of what was about to happen. You see that video you're like "whoa that guy IS a fascist" or whatever. The reality is I had had maybe a dozen confrontations with the homeless guy. He once leered and said some sexual shit about my 12 year old daughter. He once threw a muffin against the window. Once tried to steal from the tip jar. Dumped ashtrays on the sidewalk. Once fell asleep in the bathroom. He once threatened to bash my head in with a hammer...while holding a hammer. Etc. "Get the fuck out of here" was nice, in my opinion. Anyway, I get this. I get people are on high alert, accusing everyone of everything, and oftentimes wrongly. A guy once called me a racist because I told him (as he smoked) not to put his gasoline container on the outside tables. Catch him calling me a racist on film and I'm sure you'd think there was a better reason. I could go on and on and on. People's interpretations are worrying at times, yes.

But there are people who are racist. Many, many people who have now ventured out and tried out their prejudices in the light of day. Those are the people you should be saying FUCK THAT SHIT about. Those are the people hearing the President of the United States blow his dog whistle until he is red in the face.

Another story. I know a news reporter who worked for Univision and NPR and other well-known agencies. She is from Argentina but has been a U.S. citizen for years now. So, she is in line at Salt and Straw in Northeast Portland (!!!) and speaking Spanish with her friend from Spain (also a U.S. citizen). This is just after the election and all the border wall stuff and a woman in line behind her actually tells her to speak English or go back to where she came from. I'd laugh if it weren't so horrifying. In public this happened! We are talking about one of the most successful American Citizens I know, being grouped and reduced to a race and told to leave the country.

These sort of things happen constantly these days. I just got back from the South where I heard more racist things than ever before (mostly from my family there). And the data says it is much, much worse. Hate crimes, where people are targeted, have skyrocketed. I just think, regardless of what irritates the universal you, we shouldn't tolerate the hate part.....I mean, I just saw this video of this big bald Nazi screaming at a brown guy............

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[barfo]

It isn't a he did it first defense. It is a "any time a white person says or does anything negative towards a black person it is racism" defense.

Example....3 weeks ago a hispanic guy drives around back of the shop I work at. He wanders into the paint shop and asks the workers if he can buy broken headlights and other parts.

Then he comes and asks me and I tell him I can't sell parts and he has to go to the office and ask for the manager. I point him towards the office and tell him I have work to do.

Then he starts asking me about parts in my stall. I was courteous to him up to that point and that pissed me off.

I raised my voice and told him I already told him I couldn't sell parts and to go to the office and that he was taking up my time and he was starting to piss me off.

He stared at me and then wandered towards the door to the office like I told him to.

Ok, good. Go back to what I'm doing and then 20 seconds later realize he is bugging my coworkers asking them for parts.

Now I start yelling at him to get the fuck out of the shop and go to the office. We have hundreds of thousands of dollars in tools and parts all over the place and he can't wander around back here.

Did he think I was racist for screaming at him? Maybe and sure as shit if it was on video and people saw it they'd probably say the big bald Nazi was screaming at a brown guy.

FUCK THAT SHIT. I would scream at an old white woman if she did the same thing.


The point of the video is to show the double standard we live with today.

Then the point doesn't make any sense. A black guy saying something negative about Trump does not make the black guy a racist. If he says that about all white people, or lots of white people, then sure. You yelling at one specific hispanic guy for his specific actions does not make you a racist. A pattern of yelling at hispanics for no reason other than their race would make you racist.

Trump having a long history of racism is what identifies him as a racist. Not any one particular incident, any of which probably could be forgiven if his record was otherwise clean.

barfo

 

[yankeesince59]

Then the point doesn't make any sense. A black guy saying something negative about Trump does not make the black guy a racist. If he says that about all white people, or lots of white people, then sure. You yelling at one specific hispanic guy for his specific actions does not make you a racist. A pattern of yelling at hispanics for no reason other than their race would make you racist.

Trump having a long history of racism is what identifies him as a racist. Not any one particular incident, any of which probably could be forgiven if his record was otherwise clean.

barfo

Well stated, and very true.

fwiw, it has been my experience that most people who go out of their way to proclaim that they "are not racist", deep down they really are.

 

[yankeesince59]

No, we are not divided as a nation.

Pure tripe, I have lost not a single liberal friend of mine, and they number in the hundreds. None of them have divorced over it, and nearly all of them admit at least that his economic policies have been highly effective for them and for those they hold dearly.

It's hilarious for you in particular to post this thread in a fake offer of truce and willingness to listen while demanding everyone to agree to your hateful and 100% unsupportable slur against our POTUS.

Go stew in your pot of misery, and know that Real Americans are having a very Merry Christmas this year.

WTF ?

The woefully misguided lengths that some people will vainly undertake while trying to support their ill-advised narrative, never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Lanny]

Racism is real and no respecter of persons or race. To me whats more important is that we teach young people the importance of respect, be considerate of all people regardless of race, religion or politics. Be helpful to those in need, once again regardless of race, religion or politics. The way I see it, is adults are not always careful how they display their prejudice's and not pro active enough in promoting respect and compassion. This goes for the media of all types including this one, think of the strangle hold they can have on kids.

Sounds like you were in both the Cub Scouts and the Boy Scouts same as me.
Hey, I've long suspected Sly of some really kinky behavior but I never would have suspected him of strangling kids.

 

[Lanny]

Not to clump you, but this seems to be a very common response......from my 2nd grader. The "he did it first" defense or whatever you're arguing is 100% bullshit. All such questions should be asked and answered within a vacuum. Unless, of course, you believe racism can be justified in response to name calling.

One of the things my mother impressed on me frequently as a child was just because someone else does it doesn't make it right.

 

[Hoopguru]

Sounds like you were in both the Cub Scouts and the Boy Scouts same as me.
Hey, I've long suspected Sly of some really kinky behavior but I never would have suspected him of strangling kids.

lol...I should have put strong hold! Yep Boy Scout and Explorer Scout.

 

[Lanny]

lol...I should have put strong hold! Yep Boy Scout and Explorer Scout.

I would have been an Explorer except we moved before I was I turned 12 and there were no readily available Boy Scout troops. I was the kind of kid growing up where mothers of other boys would not worry when their sons said they were playing with me.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

You're worried about something different than I am...this is a totally different topic than Trump being a real-life racist, but let me share a story of my own to show you that I get it:

I have maybe a dozen stories like this from over the years, some concerning race, some concerning other things, but I think this one fits best. This one concerns homelessness. A homeless man is sitting at my café in the outside seats and I head out to tell him to get the fuck out. Literally. I walk out and say "get the fuck out of here" and some dude is like "I'm going to buy him a cup of coffee, so he can sit here." I'm like "no, you're not." And the dude just goes off on how the homeless guy is a person too and needs sustenance and all that stuff and I just turn around and tell the homeless guy to get moving and the dude calls me a fascist (literally did this) and leaves.

The dude didn't trust me to be a good person, and at the time, I didn't realize that I needed to worry about his interpretation of what was about to happen. You see that video you're like "whoa that guy IS a fascist" or whatever. The reality is I had had maybe a dozen confrontations with the homeless guy. He once leered and said some sexual shit about my 12 year old daughter. He once threw a muffin against the window. Once tried to steal from the tip jar. Dumped ashtrays on the sidewalk. Once fell asleep in the bathroom. He once threatened to bash my head in with a hammer...while holding a hammer. Etc. "Get the fuck out of here" was nice, in my opinion. Anyway, I get this. I get people are on high alert, accusing everyone of everything, and oftentimes wrongly. A guy once called me a racist because I told him (as he smoked) not to put his gasoline container on the outside tables. Catch him calling me a racist on film and I'm sure you'd think there was a better reason. I could go on and on and on. People's interpretations are worrying at times, yes.

But there are people who are racist. Many, many people who have now ventured out and tried out their prejudices in the light of day. Those are the people you should be saying FUCK THAT SHIT about. Those are the people hearing the President of the United States blow his dog whistle until he is red in the face.

Another story. I know a news reporter who worked for Univision and NPR and other well-known agencies. She is from Argentina but has been a U.S. citizen for years now. So, she is in line at Salt and Straw in Northeast Portland (!!!) and speaking Spanish with her friend from Spain (also a U.S. citizen). This is just after the election and all the border wall stuff and a woman in line behind her actually tells her to speak English or go back to where she came from. I'd laugh if it weren't so horrifying. In public this happened! We are talking about one of the most successful American Citizens I know, being grouped and reduced to a race and told to leave the country.

These sort of things happen constantly these days. I just got back from the South where I heard more racist things than ever before (mostly from my family there). And the data says it is much, much worse. Hate crimes, where people are targeted, have skyrocketed. I just think, regardless of what irritates the universal you, we shouldn't tolerate the hate part.....I mean, I just saw this video of this big bald Nazi screaming at a brown guy............

Fuck this shit is right. Did I miss the thread about this guy?

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

I'd stay there all day until the owner came back if I saw something like that in real life.

Would good be a good way to get your car totaled if you were upside down on it though.

If not insurance scam and totally real the person needs to have a mental health evaluation, home inspection.

 

[Propagandist]

I would agree that were pretty divided as a nation. The problem for me with talking about Racism is that I'm a white guy, yes when I see "racism" I want to call it out, but we do so much harm to minorities when we call things racism that aren't, because we start desensitizing people to actual racism. I feel like at times in this politically correct society that Caucasians go out of there way to "identify racism" and many of the attempts end up just sounding silly and people roll their eyes and it does damage to those who actually experience racism. This is a topic that IMO it's more valuable for us to listen than it is to talk about what's racist or not.

So, yes, it is one thing to be the so-called white knight and swoop in to save the people of color and ironically make it about you, those who people call SJWs (Social Justice Warriors). They are like hypercritical, societal auditors. I'm not talking about that, and I'm definitely not like that.

I'm talking about clear racism. I'm talking about Trump and what his brand of racism has done to this country, how it has emboldened people to act on their prejudices and how incredibly destabilizing that has been, and how little people we have done about it.

 

[jonnyboy]

So, yes, it is one thing to be the so-called white knight and swoop in to save the people of color and ironically make it about you, those who people call SJWs (Social Justice Warriors). They are like hypercritical, societal auditors. I'm not talking about that, and I'm definitely not like that.

I'm talking about clear racism. I'm talking about Trump and what his brand of racism has done to this country, how it has emboldened people to act on their prejudices and how incredibly destabilizing that has been, and how little people we have done about it.

People can only take the Trump blame game so far. When both sides are running around being complete dipshits maybe it’s time to look in the mirror rather than pointing the finger elsewhere. I see all these toxic, divisive people who clamor on about how divisive Trump is and it seems like they are just using it as an excuse to justify their own shit behavior.

 

[Propagandist]

People can only take the Trump blame game so far. When both sides are running around being complete dipshits maybe it’s time to look in the mirror rather than pointing the finger elsewhere. I see all these toxic, divisive people who clamor on about how divisive Trump is and it seems like they are just using it as an excuse to justify their own shit behavior.

Yes, but that's a bigger, much muddier topic. It's also an example of the tribalism I'm talking about and the "he did it first" or "they do it too" attitude that does nothing but deepen the divide.

I'm arguing something that if we discuss it long enough, I'm sure we will all agree on: Trump is a racist. There is ample concrete evidence of this. Now, whether that matters to you is another matter. I know plenty of conservatives and I respect those who don't pretend that Trump is a good guy. Otherwise, it's disingenuous, and therefore masking what? Complicity? I just think people underestimate how frustrating it can be.

I mean, is the point of talking politics in the forum to burn the other side? To say "Haha! Got you!"? I don't think so. I like opposing positions as long as they are fair and honest. It takes trust to admit the obvious sometimes. And I'll make concessions. Try me. I feel like there is always a way to phrase your point so that will make sense to someone on the other side, so that they'll respect it. You just have to find it.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I find it offensive that all of you only talk about racism but never speciesism.

 

[jonnyboy]

Yes, but that's a bigger, much muddier topic. It's also an example of the tribalism I'm talking about and the "he did it first" or "they do it too" attitude that does nothing but deepen the divide.

I'm arguing something that if we discuss it long enough, I'm sure we will all agree on: Trump is a racist. There is ample concrete evidence of this. Now, whether that matters to you is another matter. I know plenty of conservatives and I respect those who don't pretend that Trump is a good guy. Otherwise, it's disingenuous, and therefore masking what? Complicity? I just think people underestimate how frustrating it can be.

I mean, is the point of talking politics in the forum to burn the other side? To say "Haha! Got you!"? I don't think so. I like opposing positions as long as they are fair and honest. It takes trust to admit the obvious sometimes. And I'll make concessions. Try me. I feel like there is always a way to phrase your point so that will make sense to someone on the other side, so that they'll respect it. You just have to find it.

Fair enough. I just don’t buy into all of the hype around him, whether it be good or bad. He’s not the savior of America, nor is he a cartoon super villain with diabolical, world-ending schemes. He’s just another in a long line of selfish dickhead politicians who exploit taxpayers.

 

[Lanny]

I find it offensive that all of you only talk about racism but never speciesism.

But racists believe that different races are different species. Am I right or am I right.

 

[barfo]

He’s just another in a long line of selfish dickhead politicians who exploit taxpayers.

Oh good, time for another episode of "murderers and jaywalkers are both criminals, so what difference is there really?".

barfo