The Official Draft Thread (Nets Select Sean Williams)
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Legacy
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<div class="quote_poster">Kidd Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Nets took Sean Williams. Is he a better choice than McRoberts?</div>
For sure. Like the guys said he a high risk player, but it all pays of if he stays out of trouble.
For sure. Like the guys said he a high risk player, but it all pays of if he stays out of trouble.
NJNetz
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<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">An early entry candidate for the 2007 NBA Draft. Was dismissed by the Boston College program midway through his junior season for repeat violations of team rules.
Career Highlights: Played 69 games in two-plus seasons with BC, leading the team in blocks in each of his three seasons. Blocked a BC-record 75 shots in just 15 games in 2006-07, including 13 in one game against Duquesne.
Junior (2006-07): Played in and started 15 games, averaging 32.2 minutes. Averaged 12.1 points, 6.9 rebounds and 5.0 blocks per contest. Posted a triple-double against Duquesne with 19 points, 10 rebounds and 13 blocks. Opened the season with 12 blocks and 10 rebounds in a game at Providence. Chipped in with 10 points, 11 rebounds and seven blocks in BC’s ACC-opening game win over Maryland.
Sophomore (2005-06): Appeared in 27 games, leading or tying the Eagles in blocked shots 21 times. Ranked third in ACC conference games with 1.8 bpg. Posted seven points, seven rebounds and nine blocks in a win at NC State. Posted five blocks in BC’s second-round NCAA Tournament win over Montana.
Freshman (2004-05): Appeared in 27 games, including all 16 Big East contests. Earned Big East All-Rookie Team honors after averaging 4.1 points, 3.3 rebounds and 2.3 blocks in league contests. Shot 7-for-7 from the field in posting a double-double (16 points, 10 rebounds) against Providence. Tallied 11 points and seven rebounds in an NCAA Tournament win over Penn.
Strengths: An athletic big man that ranked among the nation’s top shotblockers. Uses his quick bounce off the floor to erase scoring chances of all kinds. Showed steady improvement offensively.
Personal: The son of Audrey Garrett and Roland Williams, Williams has spent time working on his game in Houston with former NBA player and coach, John Lucas.
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Some info.
Career Highlights: Played 69 games in two-plus seasons with BC, leading the team in blocks in each of his three seasons. Blocked a BC-record 75 shots in just 15 games in 2006-07, including 13 in one game against Duquesne.
Junior (2006-07): Played in and started 15 games, averaging 32.2 minutes. Averaged 12.1 points, 6.9 rebounds and 5.0 blocks per contest. Posted a triple-double against Duquesne with 19 points, 10 rebounds and 13 blocks. Opened the season with 12 blocks and 10 rebounds in a game at Providence. Chipped in with 10 points, 11 rebounds and seven blocks in BC’s ACC-opening game win over Maryland.
Sophomore (2005-06): Appeared in 27 games, leading or tying the Eagles in blocked shots 21 times. Ranked third in ACC conference games with 1.8 bpg. Posted seven points, seven rebounds and nine blocks in a win at NC State. Posted five blocks in BC’s second-round NCAA Tournament win over Montana.
Freshman (2004-05): Appeared in 27 games, including all 16 Big East contests. Earned Big East All-Rookie Team honors after averaging 4.1 points, 3.3 rebounds and 2.3 blocks in league contests. Shot 7-for-7 from the field in posting a double-double (16 points, 10 rebounds) against Providence. Tallied 11 points and seven rebounds in an NCAA Tournament win over Penn.
Strengths: An athletic big man that ranked among the nation’s top shotblockers. Uses his quick bounce off the floor to erase scoring chances of all kinds. Showed steady improvement offensively.
Personal: The son of Audrey Garrett and Roland Williams, Williams has spent time working on his game in Houston with former NBA player and coach, John Lucas.
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Some info.
Ma3oxuct
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He seems to offer shot blocking and rebounding, both of which we need. He does not appear to be a difference-maker though. I think he will give us good minutes off the bench initially. If he improves, he might replace Collins as a starter (which is not really hard to do). I also doubt that he'll be able to be anything more than a help defender given that he is too slim to go 1-on-1 with many of the NBA's forwards.
thedude9990
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lmao omg how the hell is mcroberts a top 5 choice after his senior year and his freshman year and now is a 2nd round pick haha....i like the pick of williams he can block shots and rebound unlike collins, i think if boone gets his shot the nets have a nice frontcourt of the future
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<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Concluded Thorn, ?Our feeling was that we needed a player like this, since Kenyon. A player of this athleticism and of this ability. Here we?ve got one. Had there been no issues, he wouldn?t have been there. I emphasize, where we were picking, our feeling was this was a guy if things go well ? if he does reach his potential ? he could be sensational. He has that kind of athletic ability.?
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Next Level Game
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<div class="quote_poster">og15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Williams is a beast shot blocker, I mean he's insane. His rebounding isn't that good actually, he's not really a better rebounder than Krstic, but his shot blocking is killer.</div>
I'm always suspect of shot blockers in college translating into the NBA because of what happened with Kenyon. He was an absolute monster shot blocker in college, but it never translated into the NBA. I mean Kenyon is a decent shotblocker but never to the point where people were saying he could lead the league.
End of the day Sean Williams does not impress me. I could've done with trading the pick.
I'm always suspect of shot blockers in college translating into the NBA because of what happened with Kenyon. He was an absolute monster shot blocker in college, but it never translated into the NBA. I mean Kenyon is a decent shotblocker but never to the point where people were saying he could lead the league.
End of the day Sean Williams does not impress me. I could've done with trading the pick.
bronbron23
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I think this is nice pick, the gamble is very large though.
who's laptop?
who's laptop?
NTC
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I really like this pick, I think its well worth the risk, considering its the Nets biggest glaring need, there was pretty much no inside defensive presence there what so ever.
If Williams can get his act together, he should be a valuable member of this Nets franchise.
If Williams can get his act together, he should be a valuable member of this Nets franchise.
Master Shake
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Funny how McRoberts was ranked so high, and he went in the second round. Lol, aha. Oh well, good pick for the Nets, I liked him before he was kicked out of Boston, I hope he does turn out like K-Mart without the injurys.
Ma3oxuct
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<div class="quote_poster">nextlevelgame Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm always suspect of shot blockers in college translating into the NBA because of what happened with Kenyon. He was an absolute monster shot blocker in college, but it never translated into the NBA. I mean Kenyon is a decent shotblocker but never to the point where people were saying he could lead the league.
End of the day Sean Williams does not impress me. I could've done with trading the pick.</div>
It's true what you say about Kenyon, but remember, he turned into one of the best defenders in the league. He could guard any of the five opposing players. Also remember that because the Nets needed his 1-on-1 defense more than they needed his help defense, he never really had the chance to show off his blocking ability.
Williams does not look that impressive to me either. Kenyon played with a passion that surpasses the passion of most. Although I have not seen Williams play, I doubt that he will be the type of player who can energize his team and the crowd like Kenyon. As I said in my above post, I doubt that Williams will make a big difference.
End of the day Sean Williams does not impress me. I could've done with trading the pick.</div>
It's true what you say about Kenyon, but remember, he turned into one of the best defenders in the league. He could guard any of the five opposing players. Also remember that because the Nets needed his 1-on-1 defense more than they needed his help defense, he never really had the chance to show off his blocking ability.
Williams does not look that impressive to me either. Kenyon played with a passion that surpasses the passion of most. Although I have not seen Williams play, I doubt that he will be the type of player who can energize his team and the crowd like Kenyon. As I said in my above post, I doubt that Williams will make a big difference.
og15
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<div class="quote_poster">nextlevelgame Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm always suspect of shot blockers in college translating into the NBA because of what happened with Kenyon. He was an absolute monster shot blocker in college, but it never translated into the NBA. I mean Kenyon is a decent shotblocker but never to the point where people were saying he could lead the league.
End of the day Sean Williams does not impress me. I could've done with trading the pick.</div>
Well that's not always the case though, usually shot blocking and rebounding are the things that translate (not a 1 to 1 ration, but a good shot blocker remains that) for big men as long as the guy doesn't have short arms, and the guy has good enough lateral quickness where he can rotate quickly enough. If the guy doesn't have those things, his block numbers might come from just sitting in the middle of a zone and being a tall guy and you can't do that in the NBA, and with short arms, you can't get to shots that you otherwise would've in college.
Sean Williams has a 7'5 wingspan, has very good lateral quickness, and can jump. Kenyon got injured before coming to the NBA, and even his first season he only played 68 games. His first two seasons he averaged 1.7 BPG each in 33 and 34 MPG, and wasn't he playing SF/PF?
His last year in college, he averaged 3.5 BPG in 29 MPG.
Williams block numbers are:
5.0 BPG in 32.2 MPG with only 3.2 FPG, and he did it for 15 games.
Before that he had 2.3 and 2.0 BPG in 17 MPG each. His shot blocking is not something that's going to go away by any means. He will be a shot blocker in the NBA, it's the other things that he'll need to get, improve his IQ, concentrate and improve defensive rebounding, and get bigger upper body wise so he can guard C's more effectively.
End of the day Sean Williams does not impress me. I could've done with trading the pick.</div>
Well that's not always the case though, usually shot blocking and rebounding are the things that translate (not a 1 to 1 ration, but a good shot blocker remains that) for big men as long as the guy doesn't have short arms, and the guy has good enough lateral quickness where he can rotate quickly enough. If the guy doesn't have those things, his block numbers might come from just sitting in the middle of a zone and being a tall guy and you can't do that in the NBA, and with short arms, you can't get to shots that you otherwise would've in college.
Sean Williams has a 7'5 wingspan, has very good lateral quickness, and can jump. Kenyon got injured before coming to the NBA, and even his first season he only played 68 games. His first two seasons he averaged 1.7 BPG each in 33 and 34 MPG, and wasn't he playing SF/PF?
His last year in college, he averaged 3.5 BPG in 29 MPG.
Williams block numbers are:
5.0 BPG in 32.2 MPG with only 3.2 FPG, and he did it for 15 games.
Before that he had 2.3 and 2.0 BPG in 17 MPG each. His shot blocking is not something that's going to go away by any means. He will be a shot blocker in the NBA, it's the other things that he'll need to get, improve his IQ, concentrate and improve defensive rebounding, and get bigger upper body wise so he can guard C's more effectively.
Next Level Game
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<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well that's not always the case though, usually shot blocking and rebounding are the things that translate (not a 1 to 1 ration, but a good shot blocker remains that) for big men as long as the guy doesn't have short arms, and the guy has good enough lateral quickness where he can rotate quickly enough. If the guy doesn't have those things, his block numbers might come from just sitting in the middle of a zone and being a tall guy and you can't do that in the NBA, and with short arms, you can't get to shots that you otherwise would've in college.
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If the height isn't there, translation into the NBA is hard. Brian Cook averaged over 10 boards a game at Illinois, but I'd be pressed if he even can average 8 in the NBA given the minutes. Sometimes it shows, like for Milsap, sometimes it doesn't. It really depends on the competition and who's facing. From what I've seen of Sean, most of his rebounding comes from just being more athletic and bigger, but that might not be the case in the NBA. Blocks as well. He has impressive, blocks, but none that really shows me shot blocking instincts like Oden does, or Mutumbo in college.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Sean Williams has a 7'5 wingspan, has very good lateral quickness, and can jump. Kenyon got injured before coming to the NBA, and even his first season he only played 68 games. His first two seasons he averaged 1.7 BPG each in 33 and 34 MPG, and wasn't he playing SF/PF?</div>
You can't really tell me that Kenyon's injury before the NBA really hurt him. Anyone watching him play his years with the Nets only shows how athletic he is. Even if he wasn't as athletic as he was supposed to be, he was still pretty damn athletic, had everything you said and still wasn't a game changing shot blocker.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">His last year in college, he averaged 3.5 BPG in 29 MPG.
Williams block numbers are:
5.0 BPG in 32.2 MPG with only 3.2 FPG, and he did it for 15 games.
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You can't really say that Sean could keep that pace up. For the first 15 games of the season, most of those games are write off before preseason. Just win-padding games against teams that probably belong in DII. If he had kept that up going through the ACC season, I'll give you that, but not when it's mostly preseason.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Before that he had 2.3 and 2.0 BPG in 17 MPG each. His shot blocking is not something that's going to go away by any means. He will be a shot blocker in the NBA, it's the other things that he'll need to get, improve his IQ, concentrate and improve defensive rebounding, and get bigger upper body wise so he can guard C's more effectively.</div>
You act as if that is easy. People spend their lives improving IQ but don't show change. Steve Francis. Stromile Swift. Eddy Curry. Gaining basketball IQ is probably the hardest thing to do in basketball because it either clicks or it doesn't, and with Sean, I'm hardly sure he's ready to dedicate himself to basketball when he conciously threw away a final four-potential season for a recreational drug. As for defensive rebounding? Either a rebounder or not. Kenyon tried so hard to be a rebounder for our team and despite his efforts, he was only mediocre. He might have averaged 9, but most of the time Jason Kidd was our best rebounder.
I'm sorry, but this kid's attitude has always been poor and I don't believe it will change. He's too up on himself to really keep it up.
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If the height isn't there, translation into the NBA is hard. Brian Cook averaged over 10 boards a game at Illinois, but I'd be pressed if he even can average 8 in the NBA given the minutes. Sometimes it shows, like for Milsap, sometimes it doesn't. It really depends on the competition and who's facing. From what I've seen of Sean, most of his rebounding comes from just being more athletic and bigger, but that might not be the case in the NBA. Blocks as well. He has impressive, blocks, but none that really shows me shot blocking instincts like Oden does, or Mutumbo in college.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Sean Williams has a 7'5 wingspan, has very good lateral quickness, and can jump. Kenyon got injured before coming to the NBA, and even his first season he only played 68 games. His first two seasons he averaged 1.7 BPG each in 33 and 34 MPG, and wasn't he playing SF/PF?</div>
You can't really tell me that Kenyon's injury before the NBA really hurt him. Anyone watching him play his years with the Nets only shows how athletic he is. Even if he wasn't as athletic as he was supposed to be, he was still pretty damn athletic, had everything you said and still wasn't a game changing shot blocker.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">His last year in college, he averaged 3.5 BPG in 29 MPG.
Williams block numbers are:
5.0 BPG in 32.2 MPG with only 3.2 FPG, and he did it for 15 games.
</div>
You can't really say that Sean could keep that pace up. For the first 15 games of the season, most of those games are write off before preseason. Just win-padding games against teams that probably belong in DII. If he had kept that up going through the ACC season, I'll give you that, but not when it's mostly preseason.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Before that he had 2.3 and 2.0 BPG in 17 MPG each. His shot blocking is not something that's going to go away by any means. He will be a shot blocker in the NBA, it's the other things that he'll need to get, improve his IQ, concentrate and improve defensive rebounding, and get bigger upper body wise so he can guard C's more effectively.</div>
You act as if that is easy. People spend their lives improving IQ but don't show change. Steve Francis. Stromile Swift. Eddy Curry. Gaining basketball IQ is probably the hardest thing to do in basketball because it either clicks or it doesn't, and with Sean, I'm hardly sure he's ready to dedicate himself to basketball when he conciously threw away a final four-potential season for a recreational drug. As for defensive rebounding? Either a rebounder or not. Kenyon tried so hard to be a rebounder for our team and despite his efforts, he was only mediocre. He might have averaged 9, but most of the time Jason Kidd was our best rebounder.
I'm sorry, but this kid's attitude has always been poor and I don't believe it will change. He's too up on himself to really keep it up.
J_Ray
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<div class="quote_poster">Kidd Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Well if he gets his head straight like Hassan and Laptop did, he looks to be a pretty solid pick. I did my reading.
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When did Hot Sauce not have his head on straight?
I like this pick but is Krstic even in your future plans anymore? Or is he pretty much a done deal to Indiana now?
When did Hot Sauce not have his head on straight?
I like this pick but is Krstic even in your future plans anymore? Or is he pretty much a done deal to Indiana now?
bbwSwish
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This is a good pick. I'm looking forward to see if Sean Williams can stay out of trouble. If he develops properly and his game translates well to the NBA (which I think it will), the Nets will have themselves an amazing shot blocker. He can be the defensive/hustle big while Krstic is the scoring big man. I think they'll complement each other well.
og15
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<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If the height isn't there, translation into the NBA is hard. Brian Cook averaged over 10 boards a game at Illinois, but I'd be pressed if he even can average 8 in the NBA given the minutes. Sometimes it shows, like for Milsap, sometimes it doesn't. It really depends on the competition and who's facing. From what I've seen of Sean, most of his rebounding comes from just being more athletic and bigger, but that might not be the case in the NBA. Blocks as well. He has impressive, blocks, but none that really shows me shot blocking instincts like Oden does, or Mutumbo in college.</div>
Briank Cook's career high MPG in the NBA is 19, so of course he's not going to average 10 rebounds a game or anything close to that. So far his career PER 40 RPG has been (9.1, 7.9, 7.1, and 8.4) with a total average of 7.9 rebounds PER 40 on his career, not too bad for a perimeter big man like him. In college, Cook averaged 6.2 RPG in 26 MPG for his career, and his best rebounding season was 7.6 RPG in 30 MPG before he came to the NBA. But I don't think I said Sean Williams was a good rebounder or would be one in the NBA, so I don't know what to say here.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You can't really tell me that Kenyon's injury before the NBA really hurt him. Anyone watching him play his years with the Nets only shows how athletic he is. Even if he wasn't as athletic as he was supposed to be, he was still pretty damn athletic, had everything you said and still wasn't a game changing shot blocker. </div>
I think it did, and yes he wasn't a game changing shot blocker, but 1.7 BPG in 33 mins his first two seasons was pretty good.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You can't really say that Sean could keep that pace up. For the first 15 games of the season, most of those games are write off before preseason. Just win-padding games against teams that probably belong in DII. If he had kept that up going through the ACC season, I'll give you that, but not when it's mostly preseason.</div>
That's why I added 15 games and didn't just put 5.0 BPG because that's a factor, and that's also why I posted his numbers for the other seasons, 2.0 and 2.3 BPG in 17 MPG, which is 4.8-5 BPG PER 40 mins.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You act as if that is easy. People spend their lives improving IQ but don't show change. Steve Francis. Stromile Swift. Eddy Curry. Gaining basketball IQ is probably the hardest thing to do in basketball because it either clicks or it doesn't, and with Sean, I'm hardly sure he's ready to dedicate himself to basketball when he conciously threw away a final four-potential season for a recreational drug. As for defensive rebounding? Either a rebounder or not. Kenyon tried so hard to be a rebounder for our team and despite his efforts, he was only mediocre. He might have averaged 9, but most of the time Jason Kidd was our best rebounder.
I'm sorry, but this kid's attitude has always been poor and I don't believe it will change. He's too up on himself to really keep it up.</div>
I act as if what is easy? I said his shot blocking will be there, but it's the other things that he'll have to improve. And by that I mean to become a player you can put on the court for 20+ minutes and be happy he's there. I didn't say it's the other things that he will definately improve and become the best defensive C in the league and DPOY or anything. I didn't say he doesn't have attitude problems either lol.
Briank Cook's career high MPG in the NBA is 19, so of course he's not going to average 10 rebounds a game or anything close to that. So far his career PER 40 RPG has been (9.1, 7.9, 7.1, and 8.4) with a total average of 7.9 rebounds PER 40 on his career, not too bad for a perimeter big man like him. In college, Cook averaged 6.2 RPG in 26 MPG for his career, and his best rebounding season was 7.6 RPG in 30 MPG before he came to the NBA. But I don't think I said Sean Williams was a good rebounder or would be one in the NBA, so I don't know what to say here.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You can't really tell me that Kenyon's injury before the NBA really hurt him. Anyone watching him play his years with the Nets only shows how athletic he is. Even if he wasn't as athletic as he was supposed to be, he was still pretty damn athletic, had everything you said and still wasn't a game changing shot blocker. </div>
I think it did, and yes he wasn't a game changing shot blocker, but 1.7 BPG in 33 mins his first two seasons was pretty good.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You can't really say that Sean could keep that pace up. For the first 15 games of the season, most of those games are write off before preseason. Just win-padding games against teams that probably belong in DII. If he had kept that up going through the ACC season, I'll give you that, but not when it's mostly preseason.</div>
That's why I added 15 games and didn't just put 5.0 BPG because that's a factor, and that's also why I posted his numbers for the other seasons, 2.0 and 2.3 BPG in 17 MPG, which is 4.8-5 BPG PER 40 mins.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You act as if that is easy. People spend their lives improving IQ but don't show change. Steve Francis. Stromile Swift. Eddy Curry. Gaining basketball IQ is probably the hardest thing to do in basketball because it either clicks or it doesn't, and with Sean, I'm hardly sure he's ready to dedicate himself to basketball when he conciously threw away a final four-potential season for a recreational drug. As for defensive rebounding? Either a rebounder or not. Kenyon tried so hard to be a rebounder for our team and despite his efforts, he was only mediocre. He might have averaged 9, but most of the time Jason Kidd was our best rebounder.
I'm sorry, but this kid's attitude has always been poor and I don't believe it will change. He's too up on himself to really keep it up.</div>
I act as if what is easy? I said his shot blocking will be there, but it's the other things that he'll have to improve. And by that I mean to become a player you can put on the court for 20+ minutes and be happy he's there. I didn't say it's the other things that he will definately improve and become the best defensive C in the league and DPOY or anything. I didn't say he doesn't have attitude problems either lol.
Next Level Game
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<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Briank Cook's career high MPG in the NBA is 19, so of course he's not going to average 10 rebounds a game or anything close to that. So far his career PER 40 RPG has been (9.1, 7.9, 7.1, and 8.4) with a total average of 7.9 rebounds PER 40 on his career, not too bad for a perimeter big man like him. In college, Cook averaged 6.2 RPG in 26 MPG for his career, and his best rebounding season was 7.6 RPG in 30 MPG before he came to the NBA. But I don't think I said Sean Williams was a good rebounder or would be one in the NBA, so I don't know what to say here.</div>
Per 48 projections are worthless. Find Wang ZhiZhi's 40 minute projections. They're ridiculous.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think it did, and yes he wasn't a game changing shot blocker, but 1.7 BPG in 33 mins his first two seasons was pretty good. </div>
No it's not and don't lie to yourself. Anything under 2 is not considered "pretty good." If you're telling me Kenyon wasn't an athletic player from '02 - '04 you're kidding yourself. I might give you '02 cause he did spend more time at the power forward position cause of KVH, but to pretend that that injury slowed him down when he obviously was still top 5 in athleticism or to think that 1.7 is pretty good is ridiculous. The top shot blockers in the league play 33 or less minutes and 1.7 would barely put you in the top 15 and there are guys like Diop, Darko, Tyrus Thomas that would get more blocks if they had the 10+ extra minutes that Kenyon got.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That's why I added 15 games and didn't just put 5.0 BPG because that's a factor, and that's also why I posted his numbers for the other seasons, 2.0 and 2.3 BPG in 17 MPG, which is 4.8-5 BPG PER 40 mins. </div>
When players start playing 40 mpg then I'll take those into consideration. Those projections don't consider fatigue, level of competition, or anything else. They're worthless stats really. And in college level of competition is very important to consider because the disparity is so great.
And I'm not saying he was not a good shot blocker in college, I'm saying that I am skeptical about its transference into the NBA like Kenyon Martin. Jason Smith is another guy who's college shot blocking skills probably won't translate into the NBA.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I act as if what is easy? I said his shot blocking will be there, but it's the other things that he'll have to improve. And by that I mean to become a player you can put on the court for 20+ minutes and be happy he's there. I didn't say it's the other things that he will definately improve and become the best defensive C in the league and DPOY or anything. I didn't say he doesn't have attitude problems either lol.</div>
You didn't say them, but you ignored the factors of them. You can't say "improve basketball IQ." Anyone who's played basketball long enough knows how hard that actually is. Even harder for a guy who seems to be a hard head like Sean. I mean it's like telling Steve Francis, "improve your basketball IQ and you'd be the best point guard in the league." Ofcourse you can say that, but few achieve it. I think Baron Davis would be the best PG in the league, and maybe one of the best all time, if he didn't chuck the ball so much, but to this day he still hasn't learned the difference between a good shot and bad shot. I don't know how long you've followed basketball, but I'm old enough to remember when Derrick Coleman came into the league. One of the most talented players I've ever seen, even moreso than Oden or Durant, but his drug problems, stubborness, and inability to be a real team player is what kept him from becoming great. And Sean isn't even half as talented as DC, but has the same problems. Derrick was able to get by his many years by his talent alone, but Sean doesn't have that ability and my gut is telling me that I should not trust this guy.
Per 48 projections are worthless. Find Wang ZhiZhi's 40 minute projections. They're ridiculous.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think it did, and yes he wasn't a game changing shot blocker, but 1.7 BPG in 33 mins his first two seasons was pretty good. </div>
No it's not and don't lie to yourself. Anything under 2 is not considered "pretty good." If you're telling me Kenyon wasn't an athletic player from '02 - '04 you're kidding yourself. I might give you '02 cause he did spend more time at the power forward position cause of KVH, but to pretend that that injury slowed him down when he obviously was still top 5 in athleticism or to think that 1.7 is pretty good is ridiculous. The top shot blockers in the league play 33 or less minutes and 1.7 would barely put you in the top 15 and there are guys like Diop, Darko, Tyrus Thomas that would get more blocks if they had the 10+ extra minutes that Kenyon got.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That's why I added 15 games and didn't just put 5.0 BPG because that's a factor, and that's also why I posted his numbers for the other seasons, 2.0 and 2.3 BPG in 17 MPG, which is 4.8-5 BPG PER 40 mins. </div>
When players start playing 40 mpg then I'll take those into consideration. Those projections don't consider fatigue, level of competition, or anything else. They're worthless stats really. And in college level of competition is very important to consider because the disparity is so great.
And I'm not saying he was not a good shot blocker in college, I'm saying that I am skeptical about its transference into the NBA like Kenyon Martin. Jason Smith is another guy who's college shot blocking skills probably won't translate into the NBA.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I act as if what is easy? I said his shot blocking will be there, but it's the other things that he'll have to improve. And by that I mean to become a player you can put on the court for 20+ minutes and be happy he's there. I didn't say it's the other things that he will definately improve and become the best defensive C in the league and DPOY or anything. I didn't say he doesn't have attitude problems either lol.</div>
You didn't say them, but you ignored the factors of them. You can't say "improve basketball IQ." Anyone who's played basketball long enough knows how hard that actually is. Even harder for a guy who seems to be a hard head like Sean. I mean it's like telling Steve Francis, "improve your basketball IQ and you'd be the best point guard in the league." Ofcourse you can say that, but few achieve it. I think Baron Davis would be the best PG in the league, and maybe one of the best all time, if he didn't chuck the ball so much, but to this day he still hasn't learned the difference between a good shot and bad shot. I don't know how long you've followed basketball, but I'm old enough to remember when Derrick Coleman came into the league. One of the most talented players I've ever seen, even moreso than Oden or Durant, but his drug problems, stubborness, and inability to be a real team player is what kept him from becoming great. And Sean isn't even half as talented as DC, but has the same problems. Derrick was able to get by his many years by his talent alone, but Sean doesn't have that ability and my gut is telling me that I should not trust this guy.
og15
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<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Per 48 projections are worthless. Find Wang ZhiZhi's 40 minute projections. They're ridiculous</div>
I'm not sure why you're acting like we're arguing with each other, or like you don't understand what I'm saying. Brian Cook was NOT much of a rebounder in college, and in the NBA isn't much of one either. He produced the same rate of rebounds in the NBA as he did in college when we take into account the RPG decrease that should happen. Those were not per 48 minute projections, no one plays that much, not many guys play 40 minutes either, but the point of it isn't to say this is how much he's going to give you, it's to say this is the rate of production he's giving you. No player playing 19 minutes in a game grabs an amount of rebounds that will impress you pure numbers wise (only a few like Reggie Evans or something). Shaq in 05-06 grabbed 9.2 RPG, but was he really 1 RPG worse than in 04-05 when he grabbed 10.4 RPG? No, he wasn't, but injuries forced him to play 4 less MPG, if you look at per 40 numbers, you see that his rebounding and even scoring production was at the same rate as the previous season.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No it's not and don't lie to yourself. Anything under 2 is not considered "pretty good." If you're telling me Kenyon wasn't an athletic player from '02 - '04 you're kidding yourself. I might give you '02 cause he did spend more time at the power forward position cause of KVH, but to pretend that that injury slowed him down when he obviously was still top 5 in athleticism or to think that 1.7 is pretty good is ridiculous. The top shot blockers in the league play 33 or less minutes and 1.7 would barely put you in the top 15 and there are guys like Diop, Darko, Tyrus Thomas that would get more blocks if they had the 10+ extra minutes that Kenyon got. </div>
I suppose I am lying to myself then. Kenyon Martin's last year in college, he averaged 3.5 BPG, then he broke his leg before the tournament, and before coming to the NBA. We never saw him play in college post broken leg, and I don't think he would've averaged 3.5 BPG post broken leg in college, that's just my opinion I guess. I don't think he would've averaged 3 BPG in the NBA either though. I'm not saying he wasn't athletic in New Jersey anymore either, he was still athletic. Fast, quick, could jump, but wasn't the athlete he was before that. Anyways, even with that, he was still able to translate his shot blocking to 1.7 BPG in 33 mins in the NBA. Now in comparing with Williams, Sean has been either as good or a better shot blocker in college than Martin was for his three seasons. His shot blocking rate was either at the same level (soph) or better than Kenyon's, and overall was better with the two better seasons being a decent amount better.
I think this is just a case of a different interpretation of words with you saying 1.7 is not "pretty good". I don't understand what you consider pretty good shot blocking, I consider the guys over 2 blocks a game good shot blockers, guys in the higher 2 BPG range very good shot blockers, and guys like Alonzo, Camby etc great shot blockers. Maybe I should've said fairly good instead of pretty good and that would appease more to you, I don't really know? If I had know me saying pretty good would be translated as one of the best in the league or something, I would've used a different word.
Would you consider Kevin Garnett a pretty good shot blocker? Maybe you would, I don't know, well he averaged 1.7 BPG in 39 MPG this season (a worse rate than Martin who had a 2.0 BPG per 40 production). Would you consider Tyson Chandler a pretty good shot blocker? I don't know, maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't, well he averaged 1.8 BPG in 34.6 MPG this season. Would you consider Dwight Howard a pretty good shot blocker? Well he averaged 1.9 BPG in 36.9 MPG this past season. Rasheed Wallace? 1.6 BPG in 32.3 MPG. I'm a little confused here, I can't say they're average shot blockers, the average guy that blocks shots doesn't swat that many shots away. An average shot blocker is like Chris Bosh with 1.3 BPG in 38.5 MPG, so I don't know what to say here, I'll let you explain that one or just let it go.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">When players start playing 40 mpg then I'll take those into consideration. Those projections don't consider fatigue, level of competition, or anything else. They're worthless stats really. And in college level of competition is very important to consider because the disparity is so great.
And I'm not saying he was not a good shot blocker in college, I'm saying that I am skeptical about its transference into the NBA like Kenyon Martin. Jason Smith is another guy who's college shot blocking skills probably won't translate into the NBA. </div>
Again, I think you're misunderstanding the point of per 40 minute numbers. The point of it is with a good sample size to show a players rate of production. You just said yourself that guys like Darko, Tyrus, Diop etc would average more blocks playing 10 more minutes, that's the exact same thing. You see that their shot blocking production is good, and they're players who aren't fat or out of shape and with more minutes won't be ineffective, and you say they would block more playing more minutes with the same role (as long as they aren't hacks), and that's true. So now are you going against that? The point of his PER 40 isn't to say he's going to give you guys 5 BPG or anything like that (and I think you know that, which is what is confusing me), it's to say when he's on the court, he's a shot blocking presence, and will block shots.
About his shot blocking translating, he's one of the guys that has all the tools for it to translate, whether he's a smart player or not. Similar to a Stromile Swift, who's pretty much a bonehead player, but oh yea he can definately block shots.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You didn't say them, but you ignored the factors of them. You can't say "improve basketball IQ." Anyone who's played basketball long enough knows how hard that actually is. Even harder for a guy who seems to be a hard head like Sean. I mean it's like telling Steve Francis, "improve your basketball IQ and you'd be the best point guard in the league." Ofcourse you can say that, but few achieve it. I think Baron Davis would be the best PG in the league, and maybe one of the best all time, if he didn't chuck the ball so much, but to this day he still hasn't learned the difference between a good shot and bad shot. I don't know how long you've followed basketball, but I'm old enough to remember when Derrick Coleman came into the league. One of the most talented players I've ever seen, even moreso than Oden or Durant, but his drug problems, stubborness, and inability to be a real team player is what kept him from becoming great. And Sean isn't even half as talented as DC, but has the same problems. Derrick was able to get by his many years by his talent alone, but Sean doesn't have that ability and my gut is telling me that I should not trust this guy.</div>
I know how talented Derrick Coleman was, and how good he could've been. I also know how bad Caron Butler was, and how he's changed his act, but I wasn't here to talk about if Williams can get it together. I was just talking about what he will definately do if he's on an NBA court.
I didn't ignore the factors, I was at that time just responding to you saying his shot blocking won't trasnslate, and that's by us assuming he won't be an idiot and actually play in the league. I wasn't giving some in depth analysis of the Sean Williams pick or the player himself, so I don't know is this criticism is really that relevant.
Now talking about Francis, when Steve Francis was 22 years old and first came into the league, wouldn't we have said that he could improve his IQ? Many players get smarter, we can see it, Bosh is obviously a much different character guy than Williams, lol, but he got smarter in a lot of things. Some improvements in IQ come from just playing, and this guy missed half the season for being an idiot. He had already made improvements though, he decreased his fouling to a very acceptable amount, and he improved his FT shooting to 70%, improved his offensiv ability. Going back to Francis, of course we won't now say he should improve his IQ when he's 29 and hasn't done if for who knows how long. That's not saying he can't, though I really don't know what he needs to improve in his IQ anymore, he was never the passer people thought, and his problem is just trying to do too much. Kobe does the same thing sometimes but is just a much better player.
I'm not here trying to tell you to trust him, I'm just here saying he's a very good shot blocker. The same way Eddie Griffin was and is still a very good shot blocker (and rebounder too), and even improved when he went to Minnesotta, but still can't get his act together and stay in the league. This has nothing to do with how much we can trust him to not be an idiot and actually be productive for your team, I don't trust this guy to stay in the league any more than you do.
I'm not sure why you're acting like we're arguing with each other, or like you don't understand what I'm saying. Brian Cook was NOT much of a rebounder in college, and in the NBA isn't much of one either. He produced the same rate of rebounds in the NBA as he did in college when we take into account the RPG decrease that should happen. Those were not per 48 minute projections, no one plays that much, not many guys play 40 minutes either, but the point of it isn't to say this is how much he's going to give you, it's to say this is the rate of production he's giving you. No player playing 19 minutes in a game grabs an amount of rebounds that will impress you pure numbers wise (only a few like Reggie Evans or something). Shaq in 05-06 grabbed 9.2 RPG, but was he really 1 RPG worse than in 04-05 when he grabbed 10.4 RPG? No, he wasn't, but injuries forced him to play 4 less MPG, if you look at per 40 numbers, you see that his rebounding and even scoring production was at the same rate as the previous season.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No it's not and don't lie to yourself. Anything under 2 is not considered "pretty good." If you're telling me Kenyon wasn't an athletic player from '02 - '04 you're kidding yourself. I might give you '02 cause he did spend more time at the power forward position cause of KVH, but to pretend that that injury slowed him down when he obviously was still top 5 in athleticism or to think that 1.7 is pretty good is ridiculous. The top shot blockers in the league play 33 or less minutes and 1.7 would barely put you in the top 15 and there are guys like Diop, Darko, Tyrus Thomas that would get more blocks if they had the 10+ extra minutes that Kenyon got. </div>
I suppose I am lying to myself then. Kenyon Martin's last year in college, he averaged 3.5 BPG, then he broke his leg before the tournament, and before coming to the NBA. We never saw him play in college post broken leg, and I don't think he would've averaged 3.5 BPG post broken leg in college, that's just my opinion I guess. I don't think he would've averaged 3 BPG in the NBA either though. I'm not saying he wasn't athletic in New Jersey anymore either, he was still athletic. Fast, quick, could jump, but wasn't the athlete he was before that. Anyways, even with that, he was still able to translate his shot blocking to 1.7 BPG in 33 mins in the NBA. Now in comparing with Williams, Sean has been either as good or a better shot blocker in college than Martin was for his three seasons. His shot blocking rate was either at the same level (soph) or better than Kenyon's, and overall was better with the two better seasons being a decent amount better.
I think this is just a case of a different interpretation of words with you saying 1.7 is not "pretty good". I don't understand what you consider pretty good shot blocking, I consider the guys over 2 blocks a game good shot blockers, guys in the higher 2 BPG range very good shot blockers, and guys like Alonzo, Camby etc great shot blockers. Maybe I should've said fairly good instead of pretty good and that would appease more to you, I don't really know? If I had know me saying pretty good would be translated as one of the best in the league or something, I would've used a different word.
Would you consider Kevin Garnett a pretty good shot blocker? Maybe you would, I don't know, well he averaged 1.7 BPG in 39 MPG this season (a worse rate than Martin who had a 2.0 BPG per 40 production). Would you consider Tyson Chandler a pretty good shot blocker? I don't know, maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't, well he averaged 1.8 BPG in 34.6 MPG this season. Would you consider Dwight Howard a pretty good shot blocker? Well he averaged 1.9 BPG in 36.9 MPG this past season. Rasheed Wallace? 1.6 BPG in 32.3 MPG. I'm a little confused here, I can't say they're average shot blockers, the average guy that blocks shots doesn't swat that many shots away. An average shot blocker is like Chris Bosh with 1.3 BPG in 38.5 MPG, so I don't know what to say here, I'll let you explain that one or just let it go.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">When players start playing 40 mpg then I'll take those into consideration. Those projections don't consider fatigue, level of competition, or anything else. They're worthless stats really. And in college level of competition is very important to consider because the disparity is so great.
And I'm not saying he was not a good shot blocker in college, I'm saying that I am skeptical about its transference into the NBA like Kenyon Martin. Jason Smith is another guy who's college shot blocking skills probably won't translate into the NBA. </div>
Again, I think you're misunderstanding the point of per 40 minute numbers. The point of it is with a good sample size to show a players rate of production. You just said yourself that guys like Darko, Tyrus, Diop etc would average more blocks playing 10 more minutes, that's the exact same thing. You see that their shot blocking production is good, and they're players who aren't fat or out of shape and with more minutes won't be ineffective, and you say they would block more playing more minutes with the same role (as long as they aren't hacks), and that's true. So now are you going against that? The point of his PER 40 isn't to say he's going to give you guys 5 BPG or anything like that (and I think you know that, which is what is confusing me), it's to say when he's on the court, he's a shot blocking presence, and will block shots.
About his shot blocking translating, he's one of the guys that has all the tools for it to translate, whether he's a smart player or not. Similar to a Stromile Swift, who's pretty much a bonehead player, but oh yea he can definately block shots.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You didn't say them, but you ignored the factors of them. You can't say "improve basketball IQ." Anyone who's played basketball long enough knows how hard that actually is. Even harder for a guy who seems to be a hard head like Sean. I mean it's like telling Steve Francis, "improve your basketball IQ and you'd be the best point guard in the league." Ofcourse you can say that, but few achieve it. I think Baron Davis would be the best PG in the league, and maybe one of the best all time, if he didn't chuck the ball so much, but to this day he still hasn't learned the difference between a good shot and bad shot. I don't know how long you've followed basketball, but I'm old enough to remember when Derrick Coleman came into the league. One of the most talented players I've ever seen, even moreso than Oden or Durant, but his drug problems, stubborness, and inability to be a real team player is what kept him from becoming great. And Sean isn't even half as talented as DC, but has the same problems. Derrick was able to get by his many years by his talent alone, but Sean doesn't have that ability and my gut is telling me that I should not trust this guy.</div>
I know how talented Derrick Coleman was, and how good he could've been. I also know how bad Caron Butler was, and how he's changed his act, but I wasn't here to talk about if Williams can get it together. I was just talking about what he will definately do if he's on an NBA court.
I didn't ignore the factors, I was at that time just responding to you saying his shot blocking won't trasnslate, and that's by us assuming he won't be an idiot and actually play in the league. I wasn't giving some in depth analysis of the Sean Williams pick or the player himself, so I don't know is this criticism is really that relevant.
Now talking about Francis, when Steve Francis was 22 years old and first came into the league, wouldn't we have said that he could improve his IQ? Many players get smarter, we can see it, Bosh is obviously a much different character guy than Williams, lol, but he got smarter in a lot of things. Some improvements in IQ come from just playing, and this guy missed half the season for being an idiot. He had already made improvements though, he decreased his fouling to a very acceptable amount, and he improved his FT shooting to 70%, improved his offensiv ability. Going back to Francis, of course we won't now say he should improve his IQ when he's 29 and hasn't done if for who knows how long. That's not saying he can't, though I really don't know what he needs to improve in his IQ anymore, he was never the passer people thought, and his problem is just trying to do too much. Kobe does the same thing sometimes but is just a much better player.
I'm not here trying to tell you to trust him, I'm just here saying he's a very good shot blocker. The same way Eddie Griffin was and is still a very good shot blocker (and rebounder too), and even improved when he went to Minnesotta, but still can't get his act together and stay in the league. This has nothing to do with how much we can trust him to not be an idiot and actually be productive for your team, I don't trust this guy to stay in the league any more than you do.
Next Level Game
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The problem is that while you sit there crunching your per 48 minute stats and talking that nonsense is that you neglect to watch and understand the game. Having seen a lot of Sean's games, since one of my internists is from BC, I only see that Sean's blocks do not come regularly. They're erratic, coming from blocking slow guys with even slower shots or just bad shots in general from teams without disciplined offenses. It's not like Oden who has timing with his blocks and to have instincts and not fall for pump fakes. Those are transferable skills. As for blocking a shot just because the guy threw up a bad one and you happened to be by there and be athletic as any man? No. It's not as impressive.
But it doesn't really matter cause as long as you have your calculator and box score you can say he's going to be a good shot blocker.
Pretty good means exactly what it should, better than good. It's simple English. Pretty good in shot blocking would mean that he's consistently thought of when you take the collective whole of the shot blocking community. So let me ask you, start listing the best shot blockers in the league. I'll bet you it'll take you awhile before you to come up with Kenyon. Which means he isn't pretty good. He's decent, which is the word I'd use, but pretty good? No.
As for Rasheed, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler? No I don't consider them pretty good shot blockers. Decent? Yes. Pretty good? No.
Kevin Garnett?When Kenyon is getting 20/14/5/2 steals and still has the energy to get 2 blocks a game, then we'll talk. KG does enough on the court for us to start complaining about how he gets below the amount of blocks he should for a guy his height, wingspan, and athleticism. He is a shot blocker, but I ain't going to fault him for not getting enough blocks when he's leading his team in pretty much every statistical category.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Now talking about Francis, when Steve Francis was 22 years old and first came into the league, wouldn't we have said that he could improve his IQ? Many players get smarter, we can see it, Bosh is obviously a much different character guy than Williams, lol, but he got smarter in a lot of things. Some improvements in IQ come from just playing, and this guy missed half the season for being an idiot. He had already made improvements though, he decreased his fouling to a very acceptable amount, and he improved his FT shooting to 70%, improved his offensiv ability. Going back to Francis, of course we won't now say he should improve his IQ when he's 29 and hasn't done if for who knows how long. That's not saying he can't, though I really don't know what he needs to improve in his IQ anymore, he was never the passer people thought, and his problem is just trying to do too much. Kobe does the same thing sometimes but is just a much better player.</div>
Improving free throws is not a sign of better basketball IQ. What you described is work ethic. That's just working hard, but doesn't mean you gained basketball IQ. IQ would require a cerebral part of the game. Understanding of the game. Picking up less fouls (which is not totally true cause Bosh couldn't stay out of foul trouble with us) could be just a result of getting more calls go your way as you turn into a superstar. Stuff like becoming a better rebounder, improving your footwork timing, that's just practice and work ethic. I'd hardly consider that improving basketball IQ. I mean, partially yes, Bosh did improve his IQ. But the fact is that it's not easy if you don't have the ethic to work at it. And comparing a guy like Bosh to Williams, is like what you said, stupid.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I know how talented Derrick Coleman was, and how good he could've been. I also know how bad Caron Butler was, and how he's changed his act, but I wasn't here to talk about if Williams can get it together. I was just talking about what he will definately do if he's on an NBA court. </div>
Caron Butler? He went to JD for gun possession for a gun that wasn't even his. Even the cops said it wasn't his, but they only arrested him because he wouldn't name the people they belonged to because they would've hurt his family. I mean seriously, how is protecting your family the same as REPEATEDLY breaking rules and having teachers barely pass you in class?
Caron Butler and Allen Iverson had troubled pasts in high school, yes. But when they got to college where they had good coaches and mentors they SHAPED UP. Cause that's what you do in college, you MATURE as a person. I don't think Sean has matured at all and if he's a late bloomer, God bless him, but he has shown ABSOLUTELY NO intent to change anything. I've seen him in interviews and the guy likes being who he is. So no, Caron Butler comparison does not apply.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not here trying to tell you to trust him, I'm just here saying he's a very good shot blocker. The same way Eddie Griffin was and is still a very good shot blocker (and rebounder too), and even improved when he went to Minnesotta, but still can't get his act together and stay in the league. This has nothing to do with how much we can trust him to not be an idiot and actually be productive for your team, I don't trust this guy to stay in the league any more than you do.</div>
I'm not saying he's not a good shot blocker in college. I don't get the part where you assumed I said it. I just said I don't think his skills are very transferable to the NBA. Like Kenyon, I assume him to be a decent shot blocker at just below 2 bpg. I never said that was bad, but I don't think that's good or worthy of a lot of praise.
But it doesn't really matter cause as long as you have your calculator and box score you can say he's going to be a good shot blocker.
Pretty good means exactly what it should, better than good. It's simple English. Pretty good in shot blocking would mean that he's consistently thought of when you take the collective whole of the shot blocking community. So let me ask you, start listing the best shot blockers in the league. I'll bet you it'll take you awhile before you to come up with Kenyon. Which means he isn't pretty good. He's decent, which is the word I'd use, but pretty good? No.
As for Rasheed, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler? No I don't consider them pretty good shot blockers. Decent? Yes. Pretty good? No.
Kevin Garnett?When Kenyon is getting 20/14/5/2 steals and still has the energy to get 2 blocks a game, then we'll talk. KG does enough on the court for us to start complaining about how he gets below the amount of blocks he should for a guy his height, wingspan, and athleticism. He is a shot blocker, but I ain't going to fault him for not getting enough blocks when he's leading his team in pretty much every statistical category.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Now talking about Francis, when Steve Francis was 22 years old and first came into the league, wouldn't we have said that he could improve his IQ? Many players get smarter, we can see it, Bosh is obviously a much different character guy than Williams, lol, but he got smarter in a lot of things. Some improvements in IQ come from just playing, and this guy missed half the season for being an idiot. He had already made improvements though, he decreased his fouling to a very acceptable amount, and he improved his FT shooting to 70%, improved his offensiv ability. Going back to Francis, of course we won't now say he should improve his IQ when he's 29 and hasn't done if for who knows how long. That's not saying he can't, though I really don't know what he needs to improve in his IQ anymore, he was never the passer people thought, and his problem is just trying to do too much. Kobe does the same thing sometimes but is just a much better player.</div>
Improving free throws is not a sign of better basketball IQ. What you described is work ethic. That's just working hard, but doesn't mean you gained basketball IQ. IQ would require a cerebral part of the game. Understanding of the game. Picking up less fouls (which is not totally true cause Bosh couldn't stay out of foul trouble with us) could be just a result of getting more calls go your way as you turn into a superstar. Stuff like becoming a better rebounder, improving your footwork timing, that's just practice and work ethic. I'd hardly consider that improving basketball IQ. I mean, partially yes, Bosh did improve his IQ. But the fact is that it's not easy if you don't have the ethic to work at it. And comparing a guy like Bosh to Williams, is like what you said, stupid.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I know how talented Derrick Coleman was, and how good he could've been. I also know how bad Caron Butler was, and how he's changed his act, but I wasn't here to talk about if Williams can get it together. I was just talking about what he will definately do if he's on an NBA court. </div>
Caron Butler? He went to JD for gun possession for a gun that wasn't even his. Even the cops said it wasn't his, but they only arrested him because he wouldn't name the people they belonged to because they would've hurt his family. I mean seriously, how is protecting your family the same as REPEATEDLY breaking rules and having teachers barely pass you in class?
Caron Butler and Allen Iverson had troubled pasts in high school, yes. But when they got to college where they had good coaches and mentors they SHAPED UP. Cause that's what you do in college, you MATURE as a person. I don't think Sean has matured at all and if he's a late bloomer, God bless him, but he has shown ABSOLUTELY NO intent to change anything. I've seen him in interviews and the guy likes being who he is. So no, Caron Butler comparison does not apply.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not here trying to tell you to trust him, I'm just here saying he's a very good shot blocker. The same way Eddie Griffin was and is still a very good shot blocker (and rebounder too), and even improved when he went to Minnesotta, but still can't get his act together and stay in the league. This has nothing to do with how much we can trust him to not be an idiot and actually be productive for your team, I don't trust this guy to stay in the league any more than you do.</div>
I'm not saying he's not a good shot blocker in college. I don't get the part where you assumed I said it. I just said I don't think his skills are very transferable to the NBA. Like Kenyon, I assume him to be a decent shot blocker at just below 2 bpg. I never said that was bad, but I don't think that's good or worthy of a lot of praise.
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<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The problem is that while you sit there crunching your per 48 minute stats and talking that nonsense is that you neglect to watch and understand the game. Having seen a lot of Sean's games, since one of my internists is from BC, I only see that Sean's blocks do not come regularly. They're erratic, coming from blocking slow guys with even slower shots or just bad shots in general from teams without disciplined offenses. It's not like Oden who has timing with his blocks and to have instincts and not fall for pump fakes. Those are transferable skills. As for blocking a shot just because the guy threw up a bad one and you happened to be by there and be athletic as any man? No. It's not as impressive.
But it doesn't really matter cause as long as you have your calculator and box score you can say he's going to be a good shot blocker. </div>
I'm still not understanding why you're making it like we're fighting against each other or something lol. I don't think anyone has used per 48 minute numbers in anything either. I haven't seen much of Sean Williams, and I didn't know most of his blocks came that way, though I don't know if "most" can come that way, but a good amount is what you're saying. Even then, the good shot blockers also get what I suppose we can call "bad" blocks. If that's the case then you might be right, but I didn't get this impression from any of the scouting reports I've read about him. A lot of what I read was that he had very good shot blocking instincts, and he was kinda making me think he's a Theo Ratliff type guy in that area, especially with the poor rebounding too because of going after too many blocks, but also b/c of his poor technique.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Pretty good means exactly what it should, better than good. It's simple English. Pretty good in shot blocking would mean that he's consistently thought of when you take the collective whole of the shot blocking community. So let me ask you, start listing the best shot blockers in the league. I'll bet you it'll take you awhile before you to come up with Kenyon. Which means he isn't pretty good. He's decent, which is the word I'd use, but pretty good? No.
As for Rasheed, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler? No I don't consider them pretty good shot blockers. Decent? Yes. Pretty good? No.
Kevin Garnett?When Kenyon is getting 20/14/5/2 steals and still has the energy to get 2 blocks a game, then we'll talk. KG does enough on the court for us to start complaining about how he gets below the amount of blocks he should for a guy his height, wingspan, and athleticism. He is a shot blocker, but I ain't going to fault him for not getting enough blocks when he's leading his team in pretty much every statistical category.</div>
I don't want to be grammar police, and this isn't English class, but actually "pretty good" does NOT mean better than good. When one says pretty good it means "fairly" or "moderately" good, that's the actual definition of "pretty" when used in that sense; and that's what I was saying. When pretty is used as an adverb, it means something like "to a sufficient degree".
You described them as being "decent", well decent itself in this sense would mean "fairly good", so we're saying the same thing here.
So I guess I don't need to reply to the rest of what you said do I?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Improving free throws is not a sign of better basketball IQ. What you described is work ethic. That's just working hard, but doesn't mean you gained basketball IQ. IQ would require a cerebral part of the game. Understanding of the game. Picking up less fouls (which is not totally true cause Bosh couldn't stay out of foul trouble with us) could be just a result of getting more calls go your way as you turn into a superstar. Stuff like becoming a better rebounder, improving your footwork timing, that's just practice and work ethic. I'd hardly consider that improving basketball IQ. I mean, partially yes, Bosh did improve his IQ. But the fact is that it's not easy if you don't have the ethic to work at it. And comparing a guy like Bosh to Williams, is like what you said, stupid.</div>
That was a grammatical error on my part, I wasn't relating the FT improvement to his IQ, and the funny thing is that I was actually going to edit and change that because I thought it could be interpreted that way. If he's to improve his rebounding though, it would be a basketball IQ thing, he seems like a guy from the little I've seen, and even his weak numbers, who grabs rebounds due to athleticism, and not because of smart positioning and timing.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Caron Butler? He went to JD for gun possession for a gun that wasn't even his. Even the cops said it wasn't his, but they only arrested him because he wouldn't name the people they belonged to because they would've hurt his family. I mean seriously, how is protecting your family the same as REPEATEDLY breaking rules and having teachers barely pass you in class?
Caron Butler and Allen Iverson had troubled pasts in high school, yes. But when they got to college where they had good coaches and mentors they SHAPED UP. Cause that's what you do in college, you MATURE as a person. I don't think Sean has matured at all and if he's a late bloomer, God bless him, but he has shown ABSOLUTELY NO intent to change anything. I've seen him in interviews and the guy likes being who he is. So no, Caron Butler comparison does not apply. </div>
This is funny too because I was thinking to myself, Caron unlike Sean changed before he got to the NBA, so it's not a direct comparison, and wasn't meant to be. Caron Butler though was arrested a good amount of times before he was even a senior in highschool, so I wasn't actually talking about that one situation. Like already said though, I don't have any more hope in Williams changing his ways than the next person, he seems to like smoking weed more than playing basketball, but I don't think I was ever talking about his attitude and his ability to change.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not saying he's not a good shot blocker in college. I don't get the part where you assumed I said it. I just said I don't think his skills are very transferable to the NBA. Like Kenyon, I assume him to be a decent shot blocker at just below 2 bpg. I never said that was bad, but I don't think that's good or worthy of a lot of praise.</div>
Well that's fine then, I can accept that. We just have a difference in opinion then, or I guess he could be an idiot shot blocker like Dalmbert and foul a lot and lead the league in goaltends. Though Dalmbert does look very good in the international zone type setting where he's just camping in the lane blocking shots.
But it doesn't really matter cause as long as you have your calculator and box score you can say he's going to be a good shot blocker. </div>
I'm still not understanding why you're making it like we're fighting against each other or something lol. I don't think anyone has used per 48 minute numbers in anything either. I haven't seen much of Sean Williams, and I didn't know most of his blocks came that way, though I don't know if "most" can come that way, but a good amount is what you're saying. Even then, the good shot blockers also get what I suppose we can call "bad" blocks. If that's the case then you might be right, but I didn't get this impression from any of the scouting reports I've read about him. A lot of what I read was that he had very good shot blocking instincts, and he was kinda making me think he's a Theo Ratliff type guy in that area, especially with the poor rebounding too because of going after too many blocks, but also b/c of his poor technique.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Pretty good means exactly what it should, better than good. It's simple English. Pretty good in shot blocking would mean that he's consistently thought of when you take the collective whole of the shot blocking community. So let me ask you, start listing the best shot blockers in the league. I'll bet you it'll take you awhile before you to come up with Kenyon. Which means he isn't pretty good. He's decent, which is the word I'd use, but pretty good? No.
As for Rasheed, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler? No I don't consider them pretty good shot blockers. Decent? Yes. Pretty good? No.
Kevin Garnett?When Kenyon is getting 20/14/5/2 steals and still has the energy to get 2 blocks a game, then we'll talk. KG does enough on the court for us to start complaining about how he gets below the amount of blocks he should for a guy his height, wingspan, and athleticism. He is a shot blocker, but I ain't going to fault him for not getting enough blocks when he's leading his team in pretty much every statistical category.</div>
I don't want to be grammar police, and this isn't English class, but actually "pretty good" does NOT mean better than good. When one says pretty good it means "fairly" or "moderately" good, that's the actual definition of "pretty" when used in that sense; and that's what I was saying. When pretty is used as an adverb, it means something like "to a sufficient degree".
You described them as being "decent", well decent itself in this sense would mean "fairly good", so we're saying the same thing here.
So I guess I don't need to reply to the rest of what you said do I?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Improving free throws is not a sign of better basketball IQ. What you described is work ethic. That's just working hard, but doesn't mean you gained basketball IQ. IQ would require a cerebral part of the game. Understanding of the game. Picking up less fouls (which is not totally true cause Bosh couldn't stay out of foul trouble with us) could be just a result of getting more calls go your way as you turn into a superstar. Stuff like becoming a better rebounder, improving your footwork timing, that's just practice and work ethic. I'd hardly consider that improving basketball IQ. I mean, partially yes, Bosh did improve his IQ. But the fact is that it's not easy if you don't have the ethic to work at it. And comparing a guy like Bosh to Williams, is like what you said, stupid.</div>
That was a grammatical error on my part, I wasn't relating the FT improvement to his IQ, and the funny thing is that I was actually going to edit and change that because I thought it could be interpreted that way. If he's to improve his rebounding though, it would be a basketball IQ thing, he seems like a guy from the little I've seen, and even his weak numbers, who grabs rebounds due to athleticism, and not because of smart positioning and timing.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Caron Butler? He went to JD for gun possession for a gun that wasn't even his. Even the cops said it wasn't his, but they only arrested him because he wouldn't name the people they belonged to because they would've hurt his family. I mean seriously, how is protecting your family the same as REPEATEDLY breaking rules and having teachers barely pass you in class?
Caron Butler and Allen Iverson had troubled pasts in high school, yes. But when they got to college where they had good coaches and mentors they SHAPED UP. Cause that's what you do in college, you MATURE as a person. I don't think Sean has matured at all and if he's a late bloomer, God bless him, but he has shown ABSOLUTELY NO intent to change anything. I've seen him in interviews and the guy likes being who he is. So no, Caron Butler comparison does not apply. </div>
This is funny too because I was thinking to myself, Caron unlike Sean changed before he got to the NBA, so it's not a direct comparison, and wasn't meant to be. Caron Butler though was arrested a good amount of times before he was even a senior in highschool, so I wasn't actually talking about that one situation. Like already said though, I don't have any more hope in Williams changing his ways than the next person, he seems to like smoking weed more than playing basketball, but I don't think I was ever talking about his attitude and his ability to change.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not saying he's not a good shot blocker in college. I don't get the part where you assumed I said it. I just said I don't think his skills are very transferable to the NBA. Like Kenyon, I assume him to be a decent shot blocker at just below 2 bpg. I never said that was bad, but I don't think that's good or worthy of a lot of praise.</div>
Well that's fine then, I can accept that. We just have a difference in opinion then, or I guess he could be an idiot shot blocker like Dalmbert and foul a lot and lead the league in goaltends. Though Dalmbert does look very good in the international zone type setting where he's just camping in the lane blocking shots.
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<div class="quote_poster">Ma3oxuct Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">It's true what you say about Kenyon, but remember, he turned into one of the best defenders in the league. He could guard any of the five opposing players. Also remember that because the Nets needed his 1-on-1 defense more than they needed his help defense, he never really had the chance to show off his blocking ability.
Williams does not look that impressive to me either. Kenyon played with a passion that surpasses the passion of most. Although I have not seen Williams play, I doubt that he will be the type of player who can energize his team and the crowd like Kenyon. As I said in my above post, I doubt that Williams will make a big difference.</div>
What are basing this off of? As you said, you haven't seen him play so your thought on Sean Williams impact on the court doesn't mean much.
I believe some of you are misinterpreting Thorn's quote. He mentioned that they needed a player like Williams ever since they lost Martin to the Nuggets.
Also in terms of shot blocking, Sean Williams in college was another level higher than Kenyon Martin the way I see it.
Williams does not look that impressive to me either. Kenyon played with a passion that surpasses the passion of most. Although I have not seen Williams play, I doubt that he will be the type of player who can energize his team and the crowd like Kenyon. As I said in my above post, I doubt that Williams will make a big difference.</div>
What are basing this off of? As you said, you haven't seen him play so your thought on Sean Williams impact on the court doesn't mean much.
I believe some of you are misinterpreting Thorn's quote. He mentioned that they needed a player like Williams ever since they lost Martin to the Nuggets.
Also in terms of shot blocking, Sean Williams in college was another level higher than Kenyon Martin the way I see it.
