The reason PDX struggles in Denver

[BalancedMan]

Denver has a huge home-court advantage. I'm not talking about the arena or the fans. There were actually a pretty good amount of people wearing RED to the last matchup in Denver last month.

It's all about the ALTITUDE.

Seriously, I used to think it couldn't make THAT much of a difference. Sure, it might be a "little" tougher to play there, but nothing world class athletes couldn't handle.

Well, earlier today at lunch I went to a gym and downtown Denver and played some pickup games. I'm not in bad shape, but not great shape either. But what i do know is that I got tired about twice as fast as I should have. Seriously, after three games (back to back, we won) I was getting really light headed and had to sit down and start chugging water. Back in Corvallis I could go for double that many and just be winded.

As much as I'd like Portland to play Denver at some point in the playoffs (so I can attend the games), I don't want them to have to face those odds. I guess my whole point is that the elevation difference hits you much harder than I would have expected.

On the flip side, I haven't noticed too many obese people (aka girls) here either, so at least there's one nice advantage to it all.

 

[barfo]

Wouldn't all teams struggle about evenly in Denver then? I can't think of any other teams that are based at high altitude.

barfo

 

[LameR]

Had you eaten much today?

 

[Boob-No-More]

Wouldn't all teams struggle about evenly in Denver then? I can't think of any other teams that are based at high altitude.

barfo

Utah, elevation 4226 ft. - and they are also traditionally dominant at home.

BNM

 

[andalusian]

The Blazers need to hold more team practices in Blazers-1 at altitude. This will solve the problem.

 

[DaRizzle]

WASHINGTON -- Take a deep breath, and get ready for the latest in Gilbertology: Washington Wizards point guard Gilbert Arenas is thinning the air in his house.

"I had my house converted to the Colorado altitude, so I am always above sea level," Arenas said Monday at the Wizards annual pre-training camp media day.

Say what? He's going to live at high altitude in the nation's capital?

"You know, that's kind of weird," Arenas said.

He'll get plenty of nods with that statement, but, yep, he's really doing it. Instead of going to the mountains to train _ as some endurance athletes do _ Arenas has hired a company to simulate those conditions in a home environment.

"I had to put a tent in one room, and then they are going to come during training camp and fix the whole house," Arenas said. "Then I have a have a portable tent I'm taking on the road."

Arenas' hopes the living arrangement will give him more energy in the fourth quarter of NBA games, when everyone else is getting tired from breathing the same old heavy air.

LINK

Hibatchi knows whats up

 

[barfo]

Utah, elevation 4226 ft. - and they are also traditionally dominant at home.

BNM

Are they still in the NBA? I thought after that drubbing we gave them they'd have given up.

barfo

 

[hasoos]

Old news. Everybody knows Olympic athletes from the US train in Colorado for this very reason.

 

[dpc]

Old news. Everybody knows Olympic athletes from the US train in Colorado for this very reason.

Yeah I thought this thread was going to have a different reason. I sort of thought the whole "hard to play an altitude" thing was common sense.

 

[Iwatas]

In the playoffs, opponents have more time to adjust. So the home court for Denver is worth more during the regular season than during the long, slow playoffs, IMHO.

iWatas

 

[LameR]

I'm actually studying Exercise Physiology, and altitude is something we're talking about currently. I think you're overstating your conditioning.

Improvements and adaptations in VO2 (amount of oxygen you can inhale and utilize with tissues) occur mainly for people who grow up in areas of high altitudes. The key is to be living there for the period that the person is developing. So even people who end up living in places for 20-30 years later in life don't experience much of an improvement, especially by comparison to people who grew up there. Furthermore, people who live there for a smaller time period (like an NBA career for example), experience very minimal improvements, if any at all.

It's associated with the relationship of hemoglobin and oxygen and the ratio of saturation, and the heights we discuss are 4000+ meters at the very least. By comparison, "mile high" would be less than one half of that at best.

So even if you would consider there to be a bit of a difference, the Nuggets haven't been there long enough, and didn't grow up there to make necessary adaptations to where they have a definitive advantage. Even if the Nuggets stayed in Denver all year (which they probably don't) and did hardcore cardiovascular training year-round (which they probably don't), they're too old for it to make a significant difference.

Another factor is the training effect that these players have due to them being (theoretically) in shape. As a result, they wouldn't experience fatigue anywhere near in the same manner that you would (duh). Not saying you're completely out of shape, but people with trained cardiovascular systems shouldn't have that much difficulty.

However, things that I could see them having an advantage in would result from more of a coaching and substitution pattern, and knowing how long individual players can last by comparison. Then again, that's something coaches should be able to notice anyway.

 

[mook]

Funny thing is that despite the home court advantage, Denver really has never been a real powerhouse team.

0 championships.

0 NBA conference titles.

5 NBA division titles in 33 years.

Overall a .473 win/loss average since joining the NBA.

A below average franchise, when you think about it. Especially when you think about the built-in home court advantage.

 

[LameR]

Old news. Everybody knows Olympic athletes from the US train in Colorado for this very reason.

Depends on the event, and if any improvement was made it would be very, very minor, but in the Olympics, it would make sense to try to gain an extra little bit. That 0.01 can become huge in certain events. It's actually bad for some depending on the races involved in.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Are they still in the NBA? I thought after that drubbing we gave them they'd have given up.

Nah, but you've just discovered the reason Utah struggles mightily on the road - they can't play at low altitude.

BNM

 

[PapaG]

LINK

Hibatchi knows whats up

His injury problems started pretty much immediately afterward. Odd.

 

[DaRizzle]

His injury problems started pretty much immediately afterward. Odd.

I think you mean coincidence

 

[PapaG]

I think you mean coincidence

No, I meant odd. I don't know if it is a coincidence, a correlation, a causation, or even a confluence. Hence, it's odd to me.

 

[bigbailes]

I'm actually studying Exercise Physiology, and altitude is something we're talking about currently. I think you're overstating your conditioning.

Improvements and adaptations in VO2 (amount of oxygen you can inhale and utilize with tissues) occur mainly for people who grow up in areas of high altitudes. The key is to be living there for the period that the person is developing. So even people who end up living in places for 20-30 years later in life don't experience much of an improvement, especially by comparison to people who grew up there. Furthermore, people who live there for a smaller time period (like an NBA career for example), experience very minimal improvements, if any at all.

It's associated with the relationship of hemoglobin and oxygen and the ratio of saturation, and the heights we discuss are 4000+ meters at the very least. By comparison, "mile high" would be less than one half of that at best.

So even if you would consider there to be a bit of a difference, the Nuggets haven't been there long enough, and didn't grow up there to make necessary adaptations to where they have a definitive advantage. Even if the Nuggets stayed in Denver all year (which they probably don't) and did hardcore cardiovascular training year-round (which they probably don't), they're too old for it to make a significant difference.

Another factor is the training effect that these players have due to them being (theoretically) in shape. As a result, they wouldn't experience fatigue anywhere near in the same manner that you would (duh). Not saying you're completely out of shape, but people with trained cardiovascular systems shouldn't have that much difficulty.

However, things that I could see them having an advantage in would result from more of a coaching and substitution pattern, and knowing how long individual players can last by comparison. Then again, that's something coaches should be able to notice anyway.

fascinating but wouldn't training and getting that extra 1% be a factor in why they are better? the difference in many teams isn't that great and one percent could be the factor that pushes them over the edge at home. i also think it's a mental thing that visiting players think they have to combat.

 

[hasoos]

Depends on the event, and if any improvement was made it would be very, very minor, but in the Olympics, it would make sense to try to gain an extra little bit. That 0.01 can become huge in certain events. It's actually bad for some depending on the races involved in.

Oh ok, so the US curling team doesn't train there. They train down at the Curling arena drinking beer.

 

[Sug]

Funny thing is that despite the home court advantage, Denver really has never been a real powerhouse team.

0 championships.

0 NBA conference titles.

5 NBA division titles in 33 years.

Overall a .473 win/loss average since joining the NBA.

A below average franchise, when you think about it. Especially when you think about the built-in home court advantage.

I was going to post something like this as well. The results don't back the theory.

 

[LameR]

fascinating but wouldn't training and getting that extra 1% be a factor in why they are better? the difference in many teams isn't that great and one percent could be the factor that pushes them over the edge at home. i also think it's a mental thing that visiting players think they have to combat.

I still don't think it would make a real difference, but you never know. I do agree about the mental part though.

 

[BalancedMan]

The main reason I posted this was because I saw a thread a few weeks back about how to "Solve Denver" or something like that. I'm sure someone else remembers it.

In any case, like I said, I'm not a great athlete, but I could tell a huge difference between today when I played basketball, and the last time, which was about a week ago in Monmouth, OR at maybe 50 feet above sea level. I really, REALLY noticed a difference. It was more than I expected. Unless you've actually experienced it yourself, then I don't give it any credibility. A textbook can't describe how much I've noticed the dry, thin air affecting me. It's more than blatantly obviously and everyone has been warning me to drink a ton of water. I've heard "there's no use, your lips WILL be chapped".

I know it's kind of common knowledge, but I really took it with a grain of salt. I've been in Denver almost a week, and even then didn't think the air would make a big difference. I doubt I've gotten that out of shape in the last week. I'm simply comparing my experience today with that of a week ago. And it was a big difference. More than I expected.

Maybe for the really in shape it won't make as much of a difference, but I'm not so sure.

 

[LameR]

I'm just saying there's a lot of research to back up what I'm saying. They've done studies on each olympics involving their elevations, factored in individual improvement, and compared where are from and come up with some interesting stuff. Just one example. I'm not going to get into an argument with you about it, so you know my side.

EDIT: And for the record multiple textbooks I have factor in humidity, wind chill, barometric pressure, among other things. It's not like the people writing books used for graduate work don't know what they're talking about.

 

[STOMP]

I'm just saying there's a lot of research to back up what I'm saying. They've done studies on each olympics involving their elevations, factored in individual improvement, and compared where are from and come up with some interesting stuff. Just one example. I'm not going to get into an argument with you about it, so you know my side.

EDIT: And for the record multiple textbooks I have factor in humidity, wind chill, barometric pressure, among other things. It's not like the people writing books used for graduate work don't know what they're talking about.

my personal experience doesn't agree with the research you're siting. For multiple summers I've worked in California's High Sierras on a biology research project that involves a lot of intensive hiking from trailheads averaging over 9,000'. I show up in great shape after months of working out in the Bay Area mostly on my bike averaging well over 100 miles a week w/some pickup hoops on the side. When I first arrive and hit the trails, I typically get light headed after just a few miles of hiking even without a pack. A few times I've had to lay down with a bad case of the spins. I tire easily, am usually a bit loopy, and have a hard time getting a good nights sleep.

This dramatically changes a couple days in. I'm strong again and able to go all day with a 60+lb. pack. This sort of transformation is typical with my co-workers as well. It's not unusual for someone to spend an afternoon green and puking during our first couple of days only to be crushing the hills a day or two later.

I attached a pic from our 2007 training week

STOMP

 

[southnc]

Altitude theory is nonsense and I lived in Denver for a year. I did a lot of running and hardly noticed much at that altitude. Of course, I've done a few marathons and can adapt quickly.

For extreme training at high mountain altitudes about 10,000; yeah, there is a difference. However, playing basketball at Denver's altitude should not have any substantial effect on professional athletes that are in top condition.

I'm not buying the altitude excuse, and doubt any experienced athletes would either.

 

[PapaG]

my personal experience doesn't agree with the research you're siting. For multiple summers I've worked in California's High Sierras on a biology research project that involves a lot of intensive hiking from trailheads averaging over 9,000'. I show up in great shape after months of working out in the Bay Area mostly on my bike averaging well over 100 miles a week w/some pickup hoops on the side. When I first arrive and hit the trails, I typically get light headed after just a few miles of hiking even without a pack. A few times I've had to lay down with a bad case of the spins. I tire easily, am usually a bit loopy, and have a hard time getting a good nights sleep.

This dramatically changes a couple days in. I'm strong again and able to go all day with a 60+lb. pack. This sort of transformation is typical with my co-workers as well. It's not unusual for someone to spend an afternoon green and puking during our first couple of days only to be crushing the hills a day or two later.
I attached a pic from our 2007 training week

STOMP

Hmm, my experience is much different. although I did spend a lot of my life on the ski hills of the Cascades and the Rockies while growing up at sea level. I never have had a problem with elevation, even when going from sea level to 12,000 feet in a day. Two years ago I went on a 15 mile hike one day after leaving PDX in Glacier National Park to an elevation of over 11k, and last year I was in a wedding where we lived at 8k for a week and hiked much higher (while drinking each night) in Montana. Zero problems on either occason, and I'm in my late 30s now.


What I am saying is that anecdotal evidence means almost nothing, so LameR's data still is valid.

 

[oldmangrouch]

It would be interesting to study the home court advantage of the Nugs with that of their NFL and NHL counterparts.

You could compare home/road winning % splits, come-from-behind wins at home vs on the road, number of "long" TD plays by the Broncos and their opponents, etc.

Where is Hollinger when you really need him!

 

[bigbailes]

to me denver never being a great team has nothing to do with the advantage of playing in denver. i'm interested in the overall home vs away record and where they stand there.

 

[BalancedMan]

my personal experience doesn't agree with the research you're siting. For multiple summers I've worked in California's High Sierras on a biology research project that involves a lot of intensive hiking from trailheads averaging over 9,000'. I show up in great shape after months of working out in the Bay Area mostly on my bike averaging well over 100 miles a week w/some pickup hoops on the side. When I first arrive and hit the trails, I typically get light headed after just a few miles of hiking even without a pack. A few times I've had to lay down with a bad case of the spins. I tire easily, am usually a bit loopy, and have a hard time getting a good nights sleep.

This dramatically changes a couple days in. I'm strong again and able to go all day with a 60+lb. pack. This sort of transformation is typical with my co-workers as well. It's not unusual for someone to spend an afternoon green and puking during our first couple of days only to be crushing the hills a day or two later.

I attached a pic from our 2007 training week

STOMP

Maybe it affects people really differently, but I agree with you. Although I've been in Denver for a couple of days, today is the first day I've done any "exercise", outside walking. Like I said, I'm in pretty decent shape. Probably about 6'1" 190lbs and ~10% BF (at the maximum, probably lower). I really noticed a difference quickly. Granted, I guess I could have been dehydrated already due to the days I was here beforehand. But I made it a point to drink water like no other the last couple of days.

If I were to go again tomorrow maybe I'd notice a significant improvement (I won't be able to test, I'm flying back to PDX). Like I said, I thought it was kind of a joke. I've gone snowboarding and even hiking on Mt. Hood for a day. I felt it a little. But that was relatively low-intensity. At least compared to how I play basketball. Hiking a distance isn't the same as running sprints. Neither is lifting weights. I noticed a big fucking difference. Play ball, where you RUN (and jump, not really stopping) for the better part of an hour and tell me it's not the same. Then I'll believe you.