The Triangle

[Rastapopoulos]

Phil Jackson has won ELEVEN titles running the Triangle (AKA "pinch post offense"). Doesn't that tell you something? Advantages of the triangle are:
* it makes role players useful - Steve Kerr owes his career to it
* it involves everybody, which is probably why the whole team is prepared to put in more effort
* it minimizes the need for traditional PGs
* it appears to be ideally suited to multi-talented scoring guards, like Jordan, Bryant and... Roy.

The 72 win Bulls started Jordan and an old knee-less Ron Harper in the backcourt and brought Steve Kerr off the bench. Meanwhile, the Lakers' 5 titles have come with Derek "bumped to the bench by Steve Blake" Fisher as a starter.

Apart from Andre Miller, we have a pretty much ideal roster for the triangle. We have Roy, first of all, but we also have three large, non-traditional guards in Rudy, Bayless and now Matthews, all of whom could play alongside Roy if we ran a triangle. Should we? The downside is that nobody else has been able to institute it successfully. Of course, nobody with a player like Roy has tried. It would be a way to keep Batum and Rudy (assuming he stays) a lot happier, and minimize Rudy's weaknesses (Fisher isn't exactly a great ball-handler, and Harper couldn't penetrate at all by then.)

 

[espn_hall_of_famer]

Phil Jackson has won ELEVEN titles running the Triangle (AKA "pinch post offense"). Doesn't that tell you something? Advantages of the triangle are:
* it makes role players useful - Steve Kerr owes his career to it
* it involves everybody, which is probably why the whole team is prepared to put in more effort
* it minimizes the need for traditional PGs
* it appears to be ideally suited to multi-talented scoring guards, like Jordan, Bryant and... Roy.

The 72 win Bulls started Jordan and an old knee-less Ron Harper in the backcourt and brought Steve Kerr off the bench. Meanwhile, the Lakers' 5 titles have come with Derek "bumped to the bench by Steve Blake" Fisher as a starter.

Apart from Andre Miller, we have a pretty much ideal roster for the triangle. We have Roy, first of all, but we also have three large, non-traditional guards in Rudy, Bayless and now Matthews, all of whom could play alongside Roy if we ran a triangle. Should we? The downside is that nobody else has been able to institute it successfully. Of course, nobody with a player like Roy has tried. It would be a way to keep Batum and Rudy (assuming he stays) a lot happier, and minimize Rudy's weaknesses (Fisher isn't exactly a great ball-handler, and Harper couldn't penetrate at all by then.)

We're missing the coach.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

We have the talent to run this.

When you don't have the talent the Triangle offense is atrocious! (Minnesota Timberwolves, for example)

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

A very good post! Roy would be perfectly suited for the triangle.

 

[RR7]

Roy would be perfectly suited for the triangle. I remember reading before the 2006 draft something about Phil wanting to somehow get Roy, because he wanted him at PG in the triangle.

 

[THE HCP]

You need a big man who can pass...... that's Greg/Marcus.

 

[mook]

Dang, it does seem like our roster is a perfect fit. Other than Miller, of course. But even with him, you can run him in the post more.

There just aren't any coaches out there who are successful at implementing it, other than Phil Jackson. If for some reason he ever decided to pick up and leave LA for Portland, I could see him really succeeding with it here. (I can also see a lot of Portland fans setting themselves on fire.)

 

[BlazerCaravan]

Dang, it does seem like our roster is a perfect fit. Other than Miller, of course. But even with him, you can run him in the post more.

There just aren't any coaches out there who are successful at implementing it, other than Phil Jackson. If for some reason he ever decided to pick up and leave LA for Portland, I could see him really succeeding with it here. (I can also see a lot of Portland fans setting themselves on fire.)

Jackson's not Kobe; I wouldn't kill myself if he replaced Nate.

 

[THE HCP]

We'd need Blake back!

 

[Rastapopoulos]

We'd need Blake back!

Argh - I never even thought of that... But as you said, Marcus is a very good passer, and we need him more.

Doesn't Tex "inventor of the Triangle Offense" Winter live in Oregon? Is he too old and sick even to consult these days?

 

[Ghost Pepper]

First ya need smart players... we have them... Roy, Batum, Matthews, LA and Camby

Need good spacing... we don't have that...

Need a coach that wants this system and knows how to coach it too.... Moving on......

Nate is the biggest question mark on this team because he thinks his offense works....

I agree the triangle was made for this team.....

 

[Nikolokolus]

When guys finally start setting good, hard picks we can talk about adjusting the style of the offense, until that happens everything is pretty much lipstick on a pig.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

From June 2006 (draftexpress blog)

Contrary to published reports, Brandon Roy will not be working out only for teams selecting in the top five of this year’s Draft, as members of his camp had stated earlier. DraftExpress learned this week that Roy has already worked out for the Los Angeles Lakers, and will be in New Orleans sometime in the near future.

With no lottery picks in this year’s Draft, many might wonder why a top-10 prospect in Brandon Roy was willing to work out for the Lakers this past week. DraftExpress has been told by numerous sources on the West coast over the past few weeks that the Lakers are exploring the option of moving up, and are interested in both Marcus Williams of UConn and Brandon Roy of Washington.

Roy joined Brazilian Marcus Vinicius Vieira De Souza (Marquinhos), UCLA’s Aaron Afflalo and Rice’s Morris Almond in a four man workout in Los Angeles earlier this week.

A source who was at the workout broke it down into great detail for DraftExpress, stating that it was the team concept and elements of the Triangle offense that the Lakers were mostly looking at. “The L.A. workout was all about trying to see how players understood the basketball concepts of spacing, use of pick and roll, of pin downs, back screens….seeing which players knew when to curl, when to flare. Which players knew how to set up a down screen. All that kind of stuff.”

The players then went into a one on one series, where it was basically a draw across the board. Our source told us that it was a bit of a “wrestling match” and that “nobody really stood out in the one on one drills.”

From there, the four joined Craig Hodges to run some of the concepts of the triangle offense and the pinch post. The source describes the drills: “When they started playing two on two and pinch post, none of these kids ran pinch post because of their lack of height. In the college game, there weren’t too many schools running pinch post for 6’5, 6’6 kids. Basically when you get the ball in the high post, and out of that, you run back screens and play a three man game with the other two on the weak side. Craig Hodges was the third man in the game. They would pass the ball back to Hodges and run ball screens and back cuts, creating a triangle.”

In this drill, Marquinhos reportedly looked very good. There were some notable factors however, as the source stated that Marquinhos had an immediate advantage due to the fact that this was most likely the first time the three college players would had never have run anything like this in college. Marquinhos was reportedly familiar with the Triangle due to the fact that his team ran it in Brazil.

Here are the individual player breakdowns based on what our NBA source told us:

Brandon Roy:

Roy reportedly had just a decent workout for a player who most consider a lock to be picked in the top 10. He did extremely well on the vertical leap test, hitting 41 inches off of one step. The source went on to rave about the Washington star’s jumpshot, stating “His jumpshot is really pretty. Its great looking, he’s got a high and quick release, and it’s really effective. His pull-up is exactly the same. He doesn’t fade and he has great control. The whole thing is pretty.” Roy also measured out at 6’6 in shoes, and is apparently a bit longer than he looks, coming in with a 6’9 wingspan. Shooting and leaping aside, everything else seemed to be pretty average for Brandon. He didn’t stand out in the one on one drills, and seemed to struggle grasping the triangle offense.

 

[Mediocre Man]

I hate Nate, and his offense with a passion, but Phillip has won titles because he has had Jordan, Pippen, Shaq, Kobe and Pau on his team.

 

[Tince]

Argh - I never even thought of that... But as you said, Marcus is a very good passer, and we need him more.

Doesn't Tex "inventor of the Triangle Offense" Winter live in Oregon? Is he too old and sick even to consult these days?

Tex lives in West Salem, I see him at the store every other month or so. He's surprisingly candid whenever I've talked to him, though I try not to bug him every time I see him. He's limited his role because of the health of his wife.

 

[julius]

I hate Nate, and his offense with a passion, but Phillip has won titles because he has had Jordan, Pippen, Shaq, Kobe and Pau on his team.

So what you're getting at is that we need to have arguably 3 of the best players to play in the last 30 years, one of the best SF's to play in the last 30 years, and a player who benefits greatly from being on that team.

 

[THE HCP]

We are so lucky to have landed Brandon!

 

[Denny Crane]

The triangle takes more than one season to put in place and the players have to embrace it. Most of the time I've seen it implemented, the star player has had huge problems accepting it.

You don't need big guys who can pass, though it helps. The Bulls were successful running it with Jordan in the post.

The great thing about PJax is his ability to sell the players on running the offense, and he seems to get the most out of everyone on his roster.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

The triangle takes more than one season to put in place

So... explain PJ's first championship with the Lakers, then.

 

[Denny Crane]

So... explain PJ's first championship with the Lakers, then.

They didn't run it exclusively, and they had the most dominant player in the league.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

They didn't run it exclusively, and they had the most dominant player in the league.

Of course, they had him the previous few seasons, too. And the Lakers don't run it exclusively now.

It's certainly true that it takes over a season for it to become second nature, which is why PJ doesn't like rookies and sticks with players like Fisher because they understand it. But if a baby version of the triangle makes the difference between a team that flames out every year in the playoffs to a championship team, sign me up.

I see that that DraftExpress thing mentions Craig Hodges. I remember reading an article where he basically badmouths the whole team (says they kiss Kobe's ass) so I'm kind of assuming he's not still employed by the Lakers...

 

[Denny Crane]

Of course, they had him the previous few seasons, too. And the Lakers don't run it exclusively now.

It's certainly true that it takes over a season for it to become second nature, which is why PJ doesn't like rookies and sticks with players like Fisher because they understand it. But if a baby version of the triangle makes the difference between a team that flames out every year in the playoffs to a championship team, sign me up.

I see that that DraftExpress thing mentions Craig Hodges. I remember reading an article where he basically badmouths the whole team (says they kiss Kobe's ass) so I'm kind of assuming he's not still employed by the Lakers...

I do think the Lakers run it exclusively these days, and that the Bulls ran it exclusively as well.

What makes the Triangle so successful, IMO, is that it's enabled bigger players to be the POINT type guy and leaving the traditional PG spot open for a specialist of some kind. In Hodges' case, he was a 3pt specialist, as was Kerr. In Harper's case, it was elite defense (along with pretty shitty stats all the way around).

What's probably most remarkable is how PJax has been able to make the Triangle work against zone defenses.

 

[speeds]

[video=youtube;e6MVXcaCeoI]

 

[Kaydow]

This question comes up every year. Why don't the Blazers run the triangle? It's a complicated offense. "Every Pass leads to a different play" - I've heard PJ/Lakers say that 100 times. I also remember Kobe saying that there can be 20-25 options/variations that you need to choose from based on reading what the defense is giving you. He also talked about 1 guy can screw up the spacing if he's not on the same page as everybody else, and how it's hard when you bring a new guy in. If it's hard for ONE guy to learn it, imagine the entire team. It could take a full season or two for the players to really understand the nuances of the offense. So is it worth it?

It would be a huge undertaking, and no doubt there would be growing pains. I don't know what the answer is.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Jackson's solution when he came to the Lakers was to recruit former players - in his case, Ron Harper - to ease the transition. Are there any palatable former Lakers out there? (Does Ronny Turiaf count?)

 

[mook]

This question comes up every year. Why don't the Blazers run the triangle? It's a complicated offense. "Every Pass leads to a different play" - I've heard PJ/Lakers say that 100 times. I also remember Kobe saying that there can be 20-25 options/variations that you need to choose from based on reading what the defense is giving you. He also talked about 1 guy can screw up the spacing if he's not on the same page as everybody else, and how it's hard when you bring a new guy in. If it's hard for ONE guy to learn it, imagine the entire team. It could take a full season or two for the players to really understand the nuances of the offense. So is it worth it?

It would be a huge undertaking, and no doubt there would be growing pains. I don't know what the answer is.

That's a pretty good point. The difficulty in learning it means you have to put a huge premium on minimizing team turnover. The Lakers were lucky to never have multiple season-ending injuries to their key players, so they didn't really deal too much with trades like we did where you add a Marcus Camby 3/4 of the way through the season.

I don't think we're going to have a lot of turnover going forward on this team, but it's always possible.

 

[Chocolove]

[video=youtube;e6MVXcaCeoI]

This is the only triangle offense I want to be part of.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

The Lakers were lucky to never have multiple season-ending injuries to their key players, so they didn't really deal too much with trades like we did where you add a Marcus Camby 3/4 of the way through the season.

Um... Pau Gasol?

Which is proof that, if the player is the right KIND of player (smart, multi-talented), they can blend in very quickly.