Then and now

[Rick2583]

I've been throwing a lot of stats at you guys the last couple of days, but I had to add this one which I think is the ULTIMATE stat on pitching & my extended point that today's pitchers are pampered WAY to much..................


Just going back to the 50s, 60s & 70s these are just some of the percentages pitchers had on complete games per start.

Warren Spahn completed 57.3% of his starts
Juan Marichal completed 53.4% of his starts
Bob Gibson 52.8%
Robin Roberts 50.2%
Gaylord Perry 43.9%
Fergie Jenkins 45.0%
Sandy Koufax 43.6%

Even guys like Seaver, Carlton, Palmer Ford, Blyleven, & Drysdale completed over 35% of there starts.

Lets look at today's greats. ...................

CC Sabathia 8.9%
Justin Verlander 7.5%
Adam Wainwright 8.6%
David Price 5.4%
Clayton Kershaw 6.1%

The only guy with any recent respectability is Roy Halladay & he only completed 17.2% of his starts.

Just an amazing turn around from then until now.

 

[Hammerojustice]

wow

 

[Rick2583]

wow

Yeah Steve WOW!. There's really no other word for it. How the fuck does a league change so much (not even SLIGHTLY) but so much that pitchers have gone from completing an average of OVER 40% of there starts to less then 10% of there starts. That's just an UNBELIEVABLE difference.

 

[BigDaddyAl1973]

Im going to say that it is tougher to pitch in today's game then back in the day. Hitters are well informed of what pitchers have. They are training more.they are bigger and stronger than ever before. The ball is livelier. Managers dont want a 75% pitcher after 6 innings when he can throw in specialists for a batter or two. Back in the 50's 60's and early 70's the lineups started to increase in talent across the board.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

[Rick2583]

Im going to say that it is tougher to pitch in today's game then back in the day. Hitters are well informed of what pitchers have. They are training more.they are bigger and stronger than ever before. The ball is livelier. Managers dont want a 75% pitcher after 6 innings when he can throw in specialists for a batter or two. Back in the 50's 60's and early 70's the lineups started to increase in talent across the board.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Al, I understand all of that but.......we're not talking about a difference of 45% to 35 %. We're talking OVER 40% average to LESS then 10% average. Sorry my friend but anyone would be hard pressed to explain away THAT! kind of differential.

 

[totus44]

Rick, more complete games and you never have a Mo. I recall an essay that linked the development and evolution of relief pitching as a natural consequence of the DH. Blame La Russa, of course.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

I love this stuff, stats like these that is. Makes me appreciate watching baseball in those great roaring 60s. Incredible stats of then versus now. That is the era I still long for.

Here's an oddity, though he pitched in the dead ball era, and tore his arm to shreds:

1884 Hoss Radbourn had a 59-12 Won-Loss Record. Played in 75 games, started 73 Games and Completed 73 Games. Struck out 441 batters in 678.2 innings. We will never ever see such a feat, dead ball or live ball era or not.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

I love this stuff, stats like these that is. Makes me appreciate watching baseball in those great roaring 60s. Incredible stats of then versus now. That is the era I still long for.

Here's an oddity, though he pitched in the dead ball era, and tore his arm to shreds:

1884 Hoss Radbourn had a 59-12 Won-Loss Record. Played in 75 games, started 73 Games and Completed 73 Games. Struck out 441 batters in 678.2 innings. We will never ever see such a feat, dead ball or live ball era or not.

 

[Majorball]

I love this stuff, stats like these that is. Makes me appreciate watching baseball in those great roaring 60s. Incredible stats of then versus now. That is the era I still long for.

Here's an oddity, though he pitched in the dead ball era, and tore his arm to shreds:

1884 Hoss Radbourn had a 59-12 Won-Loss Record. Played in 75 games, started 73 Games and Completed 73 Games. Struck out 441 batters in 678.2 innings. We will never ever see such a feat, dead ball or live ball era or not.

All I can say to those numbers, he was the original "Workhorse" Great tibbit,

 

[blgridesagain]

Warren Spahn ----> Superman

No doubt the greatest LHP of the "modern era" (post ww2/integration era).....
...quite possibly the greatest LHP of ALL TIME !
The man's numbers are unbelievable and he missed 3 years to world war 2...
...ages 22-24.

Won more games than any lefty- while winning 20 games 16 years apart with an era below 3.00 in those years. Incredible, UNDERRATED pitcher.

 

[Rick2583]

Warren Spahn ----> Superman

No doubt the greatest LHP of the "modern era" (post ww2/integration era).....
...quite possibly the greatest LHP of ALL TIME !
The man's numbers are unbelievable and he missed 3 years to world war 2...
...ages 22-24.

Won more games than any lefty- while winning 20 games 16 years apart with an era below 3.00 in those years. Incredible, UNDERRATED pitcher.

And in what has been known as the GREATEST game ever pitched (Juan Marichal vs Warren Spahn) A 16 inning 1-0 shut out won by the Giants on a Willie Mays HR. Both pitchers went the full 16 innings. And both pitchers threw OVER 200 pitches. And BTW: did I mention that Span at the time was 42 yrs old?

He was also a 13 time 20 game winner & had 382 complete games.

 

[blgridesagain]

And in what has been known as the GREATEST game ever pitched (Juan Marichal vs Warren Spahn) A 16 inning 1-0 shut out won by the Giants on a Willie Mays HR. Both pitchers went the full 16 innings. And both pitchers threw OVER 200 pitches. And BTW: did I mention that Span at the time was 42 yrs old?

He was also a 13 time 20 game winner & had 382 complete games.

___________________________

yep, and as I said - Warren Spahn -----> Superman
He hung around for another 4 years and his career "numbers" took a negative hit.
I believe he averaged winning 19 games (and 7 over .500) per season-
--for the period of 1946 - 1963.

Won more games than ANY OTHER lefthander in history.

BTW....ever take a look at many times Greg Maddux won 20 games?
I'm not saying Maddux wasn't a great pitcher...of course he was.

 

[Rick2583]

___________________________

yep, and as I said - Warren Spahn -----> Superman
He hung around for another 4 years and his career "numbers" took a negative hit.
I believe he averaged winning 19 games (and 7 over .500) per season-
--for the period of 1946 - 1963.

Won more games than ANY OTHER lefthander in history.

BTW....ever take a look at many times Greg Maddux won 20 games?
I'm not saying Maddux wasn't a great pitcher...of course he was.

Let me make this easy..................

All time 20 win seasons =

1) Warren Spahn (13)
2) Christy Matherson (13)
3) Walter Johnson (12)
4) Grover Alexander (9)
5) Jim Palmer (8)
6) Lefty Grove (8)
7) Edward Plank (8)
8) Ferguson Jenkins (7)
9) Bob Lemon (7)

The Following all accomplished the feat 6 times = Juan Marichal, Roger Clemens, Steve Carlton, Robin Roberts, Bob Feller, Wes Ferrell, 3 fingers Brown, Cy Young, Vic Willis, & Joe McGinnity.

NOTE: of the 19 players I just listed only 6 of them won OVER 300 games. 9There were 6 other members of the 300 win club with 6 or more 20 win seasons but they pitched during the 1800s.

If you're curious, the other 300 game winners had the following amount of 20 win seasons..... Maddox (20, Ryan (2), Johnson (3), Seaver (5), Sutton (1), Niekro (3), Glavine (5) & Wynn (5)

 

[Rick2583]

I love this stuff, stats like these that is. Makes me appreciate watching baseball in those great roaring 60s. Incredible stats of then versus now. That is the era I still long for.

Here's an oddity, though he pitched in the dead ball era, and tore his arm to shreds:

1884 Hoss Radbourn had a 59-12 Won-Loss Record. Played in 75 games, started 73 Games and Completed 73 Games. Struck out 441 batters in 678.2 innings. We will never ever see such a feat, dead ball or live ball era or not.

A note on Radbourn is that he started pitching late in his life. I believe he was 26 & was 36 by the time he hung up his 11 year career. with 309 wins.

Another amazing guy the following year (1885) was John Clarkson who went 53-16 & completed 68 of his 70 starts & pitched 623 innings & won 328 games during his short 12 year career.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

It's hard to even fathome Radbourn and Clarksons feats. Heck I'm still trying to get my head around Matthewson's achievements.

What a treat is was though to watch MLB faithfully during the greats you pointed out, eg. Koufax, Marichal, Gibson, Spahn & Sain pray for rain. Seaver, Carlton, Ford, Blyleven (what a curveball), Perry, Drysdale, Sudden Sam McDowell, and a flock of other greats. Those were the days! or Daze!

 

[Hammerojustice]

I love this stuff, stats like these that is. Makes me appreciate watching baseball in those great roaring 60s. Incredible stats of then versus now. That is the era I still long for.

Here's an oddity, though he pitched in the dead ball era, and tore his arm to shreds:

1884 Hoss Radbourn had a 59-12 Won-Loss Record. Played in 75 games, started 73 Games and Completed 73 Games. Struck out 441 batters in 678.2 innings. We will never ever see such a feat, dead ball or live ball era or not.

I love this stuff, stats like these that is. Makes me appreciate watching baseball in those great roaring 60s. Incredible stats of then versus now. That is the era I still long for.

Here's an oddity, though he pitched in the dead ball era, and tore his arm to shreds:

1884 Hoss Radbourn had a 59-12 Won-Loss Record. Played in 75 games, started 73 Games and Completed 73 Games. Struck out 441 batters in 678.2 innings. We will never ever see such a feat, dead ball or live ball era or not.

Deja vu

 

[Rick2583]

Deja vu

Either that or a MAJOR stutter.

 

[Hammerojustice]

Either that or a MAJOR stutter.

lol

 

[blgridesagain]

It's hard to even fathome Radbourn and Clarksons feats. Heck I'm still trying to get my head around Matthewson's achievements.

What a treat is was though to watch MLB faithfully during the greats you pointed out, eg. Koufax, Marichal, Gibson, Spahn & Sain pray for rain. Seaver, Carlton, Ford, Blyleven (what a curveball), Perry, Drysdale, Sudden Sam McDowell, and a flock of other greats. Those were the days! or Daze!

______________________________________________

Sudden Sam - still owns one of the greatest K/IP ratios in history.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

Vuja De, Veja Du, Du Veja...????

 

[blgridesagain]

It's hard to even fathome Radbourn and Clarksons feats. Heck I'm still trying to get my head around Matthewson's achievements.

What a treat is was though to watch MLB faithfully during the greats you pointed out, eg. Koufax, Marichal, Gibson, Spahn & Sain pray for rain. Seaver, Carlton, Ford, Blyleven (what a curveball), Perry, Drysdale, Sudden Sam McDowell, and a flock of other greats. Those were the days! or Daze!

___________________________

Funny thing about that old "Spahn and Sain and pray for rain" refrain........There was another pitcher on those staffs,Vern Bickford- and he was a pretty good pitcher who sometimes had better numbers than Sain.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

Sudden Sam was a physcially BIG pitcher. Sam Towered on the mound for his era, tho' Drysdale seemed BIG too. Sam was listed in the program as 6'5" and 190 lbs. No way was he a ounce under 250+ lbs. Sam's long stretch and 100 mph smoking fastball, sounded like a cannon in the Catchers mitt. I saw him pitch 5 innings of an exhibition game versus the SF Giants, Luis Tiant threw 3 innings for the Tribe. J. Marichal and G. Perry threw for the Giants. Marichal's high leg kick was unbelievable in person. G. Perry had a very good fastball, decades prior to his spitter. All 4 were true legends in the making, or already at the top of their game.

McDowell gave up 2 mistakes, jacks-a solo Mays HR through the wooden scoreboard, I kid you not, thru the board, the crack of the board was louder than that of Mays bat. The next inning was even more incredible, when Sudden Sam gave up a Grand Slam to Willie McCovey. I never saw that ball come down, seriously. Last I heard, from JPL, the Voyager Satellite, showed pictures of McCovey's moonshot, heading past Pluto.........

The game was played in Shreveport, LA. at the SF Giants, then AAA Minor League Affiliate Field. Dad got seats directly behind the Giants dugout, and I got away with climbing atop the dugout laying flat like a fish, reaching out over the edge into the dugout, scorecard and pen in hand, when the team came in from warm ups, allowing me to a acquire autographs on the scorecard I still have. Autogrpahs of: Mays, McCovey, Lanier, Marichal, Perry, J.Hart, and a few other Giants. As soon as I got back in my seat, approx. a dozen or more kids were coming down the steps to try the same thing, but were turned away by Ushers. I was never told don't do that, or get off there. Not in those days. Today I would of been thrown out on my nose. 13 yrs old. During warm ups, alongside the fences, I managed to obtain Rocco Colavito, Sudden Sam, L.Tiant, Joe Adcock (Tribes Manager) and R.Fosse autographs.

 

[Rick2583]

Sudden Sam was a physcially BIG pitcher. Sam Towered on the mound for his era, tho' Drysdale seemed BIG too. Sam was listed in the program as 6'5" and 190 lbs. No way was he a ounce under 250+ lbs. Sam's long stretch and 100 mph smoking fastball, sounded like a cannon in the Catchers mitt. I saw him pitch 5 innings of an exhibition game versus the SF Giants, Luis Tiant threw 3 innings for the Tribe. J. Marichal and G. Perry threw for the Giants. Marichal's high leg kick was unbelievable in person. G. Perry had a very good fastball, decades prior to his spitter. All 4 were true legends in the making, or already at the top of their game.

McDowell gave up 2 mistakes, jacks-a solo Mays HR through the wooden scoreboard, I kid you not, thru the board, the crack of the board was louder than that of Mays bat. The next inning was even more incredible, when Sudden Sam gave up a Grand Slam to Willie McCovey. I never saw that ball come down, seriously. Last I heard, from JPL, the Voyager Satellite, showed pictures of McCovey's moonshot, heading past Pluto.........

The game was played in Shreveport, LA. at the SF Giants, then AAA Minor League Affiliate Field. Dad got seats directly behind the Giants dugout, and I got away with climbing atop the dugout laying flat like a fish, reaching out over the edge into the dugout, scorecard and pen in hand, when the team came in from warm ups, allowing me to a acquire autographs on the scorecard I still have. Autogrpahs of: Mays, McCovey, Lanier, Marichal, Perry, J.Hart, and a few other Giants. As soon as I got back in my seat, approx. a dozen or more kids were coming down the steps to try the same thing, but were turned away by Ushers. I was never told don't do that, or get off there. Not in those days. Today I would of been thrown out on my nose. 13 yrs old. During warm ups, alongside the fences, I managed to obtain Rocco Colavito, Sudden Sam, L.Tiant, Joe Adcock (Tribes Manager) and R.Fosse autographs.

Sam McDowell career completely blew up after the Indians traded him to MY San Francisco Giants for one of my favorite players Gaylord Perry. I think he bounced to 3-4 different teams after that including a stint with the Yankees. Before being finished in his early 30s. Perry went on to win the 1st of his 2 cy youngs. I believe to date Perry is the only pitcher to win the Cy Young in both leagues.

Here's a bit of trivia info for you. The character Ted Danson played on the TV show Cheers as a former alcoholic pitcher was based on the life of Sam McDowell.

 

[yankeesince59]

...there's really no way to compare the players of long ago to the players of today...it's just not the same.

...the players haven't really changed that much, but the game has.

...the players didn't lower the mound, or implement the DH, or relief pitcher, the game did.

 

[Hammerojustice]

Vuja De, Veja Du, Du Veja...????

lol

 

[Mattingly23NY]

I was going to say, McDowell had a severe drinking problem when the Tribe shipped him off. Sad, wonder what demons haunted him to turn to drinking so much?
To much talent gets wasted these days and those days too.

Sudden Sam's only workout was lifting gallon jugs of booze, sad. That guy had a talent he squandered.

 

[Rick2583]

I was going to say, McDowell had a severe drinking problem when the Tribe shipped him off. Sad, wonder what demons haunted him to turn to drinking so much?
To much talent gets wasted these days and those days too.

Sudden Sam's only workout was lifting gallon jugs of booze, sad. That guy had a talent he squandered.

Lost his wife kids & his home due to his demons before he completely turned his life around.. It seemed like every year he would lead the league in strike outs.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

Yes, Sam's life story was a sad one, losing so much to booze.

but boy could he throw as hard as Koufax back then.

 

[Rick2583]

Yes, Sam's life story was a sad one, losing so much to booze.

but boy could he throw as hard as Koufax back then.

I remember him well.


And speaking of Koufax, I STILL can't believe he retired when he did due to a bad arm. I mean when you look at what he did in his final season, you just have to ask, "My god if he could put up those type of #s in his final year, just how bad could his arm have been"? BTW: His final season was................................................

* = led league

27* - 9, !.73 ERA*, 27 CGs*, 317 strike outs*, & 323 IP* And he won his 3rd cy young. And he was only 30 years old.

Just incredible. The greatest pitcher I've ever seen.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/koufasa01.shtml

 

[yankeesince59]

...from what I remember, he retired because he was concerned about his health and particularly his arm...and having to take so many cortisone shots.