Thinking outside for box for lineup change

[Irish Trader]

We are going to lose alot of games this year. So why not experiment more with lineups than just having a traditional pick and roll offense. What about a lineup without a true point guard. Lets have a motion offense where the ball does not stick and pound the dribble. How about a physical big team with two good three point shooters and one that is adequate along with dominance in the interior. Why not mix things up and see what happens. Whats the worse that can happen we lose a game. Assuming everyone is healthy

starters

Clingan center
Ayton Power forward
Camara forward
Grant shooting guard
Sharpe at point



significant subs

Willams center
Avdija power forward
banton forward
simons shooting guard
Henderson point guard

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Give me Banton/Rupert/Avdija/Camara/Clingan, backed by Scoot/Sharpe/Murray/Walker/Williams.

Ant/Thybulle/Grant/Reath/Ayton can all enjoy the bench.

 

[Irish Trader]

Give me Banton/Rupert/Avdija/Camara/Clingan.

interesting combo also come on coach earn your money and experiment

 

[blazerkor]

I like the idea of: Deni, Shaedon, Tou, a power forward we just don't have on this team right now and Clingan. Probably more like Banton, Sharpe, Camara, Avdija, Clingan.

 

[blazerkor]

interesting combo also come on coach earn your money and experiment

To be fair he does throw these lineups out there for significant portions of the games but if Joe is trying to sell Ant, Jerami and Deandre which I think we all hope he is, then those guys have to start or be out with a mysterious injury. Demoting them would just give other GMs ammo in negotiations.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Banton Scoot
Sharpe
Camara Rupert
Deni
Timelord Clingan

Those are the guys I'd play if I had my choice. I'd trade/cut/bench/buyout everyone else.

 

[Irish Trader]

To be fair he does throw these lineups out there for significant portions of the games but if Joe is trying to sell Ant, Jerami and Deandre which I think we all hope he is, then those guys have to start or be out with a mysterious injury. Demoting them would just give other GMs ammo in negotiations.

I have never seen Ayton and Clingan out on the floor together. There worth is what it is in the league first or second string

 

[Irish Trader]

I would like to find the best starting five all around players. Players who both shoot and defend. Players who cannot defend are not people that fit in long term. Also people who consistently throw up bricks for shots. Find that combo to start the game to play against the other teams best starters.

 

[Irish Trader]

One more thing Ayton is not a center he is a power forward. Thats where he belongs. Weak side offensive rebounding would be a monster with Clingan and Ayton in the game.

 

[SheedSoNasty]

One more thing Ayton is not a center he is a power forward. Thats where he belongs. Weak side offensive rebounding would be a monster with Clingan and Ayton in the game.

Id like to see the team at least try this. Maybe its terrible and maybe its not, but I don’t recall them playing together once yet.

 

[Irish Trader]

Id like to see the team at least try this. Maybe its terrible and maybe its not, but I don’t recall them playing together once yet.

Agreed at least try to find out. Ayton has a pretty good 2 point shot game. Inside 15 feet he is decent. He is not a great leaper on defense and is not a back to the basket center or great rebounder. He would abuse other forwards in the league at power forward. I think he would like the change and perhaps inhance his career.

 

[Everything Beagle]

One more thing Ayton is not a center he is a power forward. Thats where he belongs. Weak side offensive rebounding would be a monster with Clingan and Ayton in the game.

Thank you! I’m glad I’m not the only one who sees it! We’d be huge with an Ayton/Clingan frontcourt

 

[SharpesTriumph]

I would like to find the best starting five all around players. Players who both shoot and defend. Players who cannot defend are not people that fit in long term. Also people who consistently throw up bricks for shots. Find that combo to start the game to play against the other teams best starters.

I don't really see why starting lineups or units matter much at this time. We're in a long term rebuild many years away from competing for anything. Right now is about developing players and talent that can help in future years, as well as accumulating picks and assets.

All I really want to see from players right now is ones that give hard effort on both ends and follow the coaching staff game plan. I'm seeing that more from the youth on this team, such as the two Minnesota games, than any lineups with our god awful vet trio of Grant/Ayton/Simons.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

One more thing Ayton is not a center he is a power forward. Thats where he belongs. Weak side offensive rebounding would be a monster with Clingan and Ayton in the game.

Ayton is certainly not a forward in 2024 - that position requires 3 point shooting. Maybe in 1980's he could have played forward - or even during the early years of LMA. It's a different league today.

Ayton can't protect the rim or space the floor so I'd argue he belongs at the end of the bench. There isn't value in that archetype of player.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Id like to see the team at least try this. Maybe its terrible and maybe its not, but I don’t recall them playing together once yet.

Who sits in that case? We already have Deni riding the bench to allow Grant playing time.

I'm ok with trying it as this whole season is a joke anyways but I can't imagine there is any way those two are effective together. We'd probably give up 20+ three's in that game.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Id like to see the team at least try this. Maybe its terrible and maybe its not, but I don’t recall them playing together once yet.

Sure. Those two, Deni or Camara, Sharpe, and Scoot. I'm sure it'll suck, but I don't care if we win. I just want Scoot, Sharpe, and Camara on the floor as much as possible.

But make no mistake, I think playing Ayton at the four is going to be incredibly ineffective.

 

[blazerkor]

Ayton is certainly not a forward in 2024 - that position requires 3 point shooting. Maybe in 1980's he could have played forward - or even during the early years of LMA. It's a different league today.

Ayton can't protect the rim or space the floor so I'd argue he belongs at the end of the bench. There isn't value in that archetype of player.

So "there isn't any value" for the type of player who pulls down 10 rebounds a game, protects the paint, has the footspeed to switch out onto the perimeter and makes shots at over 55% from the field... who would only be more efficient if he had better players in front of him on another team???

Seriously, I can see the argument being made that his max contract makes him have very little trade value but Ayton is a starting C in this league. He could and did start on a team that made it to the finals, he's actually better now and not worse than he was at that point. He was arguably their third most impactful player and again, he's better now, not worse. He does not have the footspeed to play the 4 along a more traditional 5 than even he is but he's plenty quick and explosive to be a 5 in the league right now.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

So "there isn't any value" for the type of player who pulls down 10 rebounds a game, protects the paint, has the footspeed to switch out onto the perimeter and makes shots at over 55% from the field... who would only be more efficient if he had better players in front of him on another team???

Ayton doesn't protect the paint, he's god awful at it. Meyers Leonard was better.

Ayton doesn't have footspeed to switch to the perimeter. He's better than a lumbering big like Clingan but he still has to drop back or have teammates double and it gets the whole defense out of position. Timelord is a player that DOES have that ability to switch to the perimeter.

Not sure what your talking about Ayton being better with now than he was in Phoenix. Ayton's lowest PER of his career was last season in Portland at 18.9 - that was until this season its even worse at 17.0

I just don't agree that he's a starting C in this league. It's like when we acquired Hassan Whiteside also on a max contract, then the next year he took the minimum to play 3rd string in Sacramento then was out of the league. Well Ayton might hang around the league longer since he's younger, but I don't see him at all as a starting or key bench player going forward. In Phoenix there was the allure of the team success and "untapped potential" due to his age or a change of scenery, thats now gone. He's been exposed in Portland as a player that puts up some of the most empty stats possible.

Even max players like Ingram, LaVine, etc now have almost no trade value in the new CBA. They are far superior on the court to Ayton. We made a mistake acquiring Ayton for Nurkic and likely just need to eat that contract for two more years.

 

[Hoopguru]

Id say Ayton is in the top 20 of 30 NBA centers.

 

[wizenheimer]

So "there isn't any value" for the type of player who pulls down 10 rebounds a game, protects the paint, has the footspeed to switch out onto the perimeter and makes shots at over 55% from the field... who would only be more efficient if he had better players in front of him on another team???
.

Ayton does NOT protect the rim or the paint. And he does not have the footspeed to consistent switch onto NBA PF's

* in 2022-23, when Nurkic was the C, Portland ranked 7th in opponent FG% at the rim; and 15th in opponent FG% in the 3-10' zone
* in 2023-24, with Ayton replacing Nurkic as the C, Portland ranked 28th in opponent FG% at the rim; and 28th in opponent FG% in the 3-10' zone

Ayton's impact on Portland's interior defense was a fucking disaster

and Ayton as a PF is nonsense, IMO. The NBA has long been a place where player's positions are determined by who they can defend

OKC runs with Jalen Williams and Aaron Wiggins as PF's
Houston goes with Jabari Smith and Tari Eason
Dallas - PJ Washington and Naji Marshall
Memphis - Brandon Clarke and Santi Aldama
LAC - Derrik Jones and Batum
Suns - Kevin Durant and Royce O'neal
Warriors - Green and Kuminga
Denver - Aaron Gordon and Porter Jr.
LAL - Lebron & Hachimura
Spurs - Harrison Barnes and Jeremy Sochan
Minny - Julius Randle & Naz Reid (finally... matchups he might not look like a flat-footed doofus)
Kings - Keegam Murray and Trey Lyles
Jazz - Markkanen & John Collins
Pelicans - Zion and Trey Murphy

That's just the West, and this is what the NBA has become: team after team going with who would have been SF's 10 years ago as PF's now. Ayton would be at a speed and quickness disadvantage against almost all those guys. They would just drag Ayton out to the 3 point line and then, most of them have the ball-handling sufficient to drive past Ayton and leave him confused and chasing

and Ayton does not have the post game to punish those smaller defenders. His turn-around-fade-away-mid-range game could not come close to offsetting what he'd give up on defense

 

[blazerkor]

Ayton does NOT protect the rim or the paint. And he does not have the footspeed to consistent switch onto NBA PF's

* in 2022-23, when Nurkic was the C, Portland ranked 7th in opponent FG% at the rim; and 15th in opponent FG% in the 3-10' zone
* in 2023-24, with Ayton replacing Nurkic as the C, Portland ranked 28th in opponent FG% at the rim; and 28th in opponent FG% in the 3-10' zone

Ayton's impact on Portland's interior defense was a fucking disaster

and Ayton as a PF is nonsense, IMO. The NBA has long been a place where player's positions are determined by who they can defend

OKC runs with Jalen Williams and Aaron Wiggins as PF's
Houston goes with Jabari Smith and Tari Eason
Dallas - PJ Washington and Naji Marshall
Memphis - Brandon Clarke and Santi Aldama
LAC - Derrik Jones and Batum
Suns - Kevin Durant and Royce O'neal
Warriors - Green and Kuminga
Denver - Aaron Gordon and Porter Jr.
LAL - Lebron & Hachimura
Spurs - Harrison Barnes and Jeremy Sochan
Minny - Julius Randle & Naz Reid (finally... matchups he might not look like a flat-footed doofus)
Kings - Keegam Murray and Trey Lyles
Jazz - Markkanen & John Collins
Pelicans - Zion and Trey Murphy

That's just the West, and this is what the NBA has become: team after team going with who would have been SF's 10 years ago as PF's now. Ayton would be at a speed and quickness disadvantage against almost all those guys. They would just drag Ayton out to the 3 point line and then, most of them have the ball-handling sufficient to drive past Ayton and leave him confused and chasing

and Ayton does not have the post game to punish those smaller defenders. His turn-around-fade-away-mid-range game could not come close to offsetting what he'd give up on defense

Ayton at the 4 seems absolutely crazy to me. I do think that he can do the things a modern 5 has to do defensively so no one could play him off the court with their normal starting lineup. I think you guys are being hard on his defense, I know he isn't a rim protector but I think he controls the paint well... that's hard to quantify because our perimeter defenders are so poor outside of Jerami when he decides to be engaged and Tou who is a quality defender pretty much all of the time.

I will say it again, I think Deandre is a starting level C in this league and not only some lame excuse for a starter but a starter who is the third best player on a Western Conference champion that wins two games in the Finals.

 

[Mediocre Man]

This is both brilliant and nonsensical. It does so much and is also disastrous. Super helpful, yet a complete waste.

I love this

 

[wizenheimer]

I will say it again, I think Deandre is a starting level C in this league and not only some lame excuse for a starter but a starter who is the third best player on a Western Conference champion that wins two games in the Finals.

great, he averaged 14 & 10 and maybe, was the 4th best player on a team that rode a perfect storm into the finals

and he averaged 17 & 11 on a team that won 21 games

 

[beast blazer]

I'd like to see Deni at PG. He's got the athletic ability, ball handling/passing ability to play the point.

 

[beast blazer]

Ayton at the 4 seems absolutely crazy to me. I do think that he can do the things a modern 5 has to do defensively so no one could play him off the court with their normal starting lineup. I think you guys are being hard on his defense, I know he isn't a rim protector but I think he controls the paint well... that's hard to quantify because our perimeter defenders are so poor outside of Jerami when he decides to be engaged and Tou who is a quality defender pretty much all of the time.

I will say it again, I think Deandre is a starting level C in this league and not only some lame excuse for a starter but a starter who is the third best player on a Western Conference champion that wins two games in the Finals.

Why would he be worse than LaMarcus Aldridge at the 4? They both like to take the little jump shot. LA wasn't more athletic than DA.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

great, he averaged 14 & 10 and maybe, was the 4th best player on a team that rode a perfect storm into the finals

and he averaged 17 & 11 on a team that won 21 games

Obviously Booker, Bridges, CP3 were the leaders of that finals team.

Cam Johnson shot 45% 3s on that team finals team, and a 30 year old Jae Crowder played very well on both ends while shooting 38%. Ayton was the 6th most impactful Suns player.

The Suns didn't offer him a contract after those finals, so he had to play on an expiring deal. If they were impressed with his contributions as a 22 year old they would've eagerly locked him up.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Why would he be worse than LaMarcus Aldridge at the 4? They both like to take the little jump shot. LA wasn't more athletic than DA.

LMA was more mobile, a much better defender, a far better shooter, and played in an era with far more lumbering PF's.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

great, he averaged 14 & 10 and maybe, was the 4th best player on a team that rode a perfect storm into the finals

and he averaged 17 & 11 on a team that won 21 games

Hassan Whiteside career high averages were 17.0 points, 14.1 rebounds and 3.7 blocks. He was much more statistically impactful than Ayton.

Both of them are poor centers, the book was out on Whiteside during his Portland tenure just as the league is today aware of the hollow impact of Ayton offensive stats.

After Whiteside max contract in Portland he signed a minimum deal in Sacramento, played 36 games, one final season in Utah then was out of the league.

 

[beast blazer]

LMA was more mobile, a much better defender, a far better shooter, and played in an era with far more lumbering PF's.

DA actually shoots a better percentage from mid range. I don't think he was more mobile either.

 

[STOMP]

Thank you! I’m glad I’m not the only one who sees it! We’d be huge with an Ayton/Clingan frontcourt

Sarcasm, right?

STOMP