This "F*** You, David Stern" moment ...

[SodaPopinski]

... is brought to you by the number 14, as in 14 wins ... through this brutal stretch of the schedule the NBA laid in front of us.

What else you got?

-Pop

 

[ironcrotch]

... is brought to you by the number 14, as in 14 wins ... through this brutal stretch of the schedule the NBA laid in front of us.

What else you got?

-Pop

Us playing his beloved Celtics on ESPN, he's going to have his goons (refs) out in full force.

 

[hasoos]

Yep prepare to be bent over by the refs tonight.

 

[ehizzy3]

Yep prepare to be bent over by the refs tonight.

i hope they dont get bent over by the refs tonight

 

[hasoos]

i hope they dont get bent over by the refs tonight

Oh yea the game is tomorrow isn't it. They have been playing so many back to backs, I almost expect them to be playing most nights of the week.

 

[MrJayremmie]

I can't wait until we are through our first 24 games...

Much easier teams, much better home/away, and Webster back, along with our chemistry hopefully a lot better w/ Greg, and Greg more comfortable in the NBA.

This really can turn out to be a very special season if everything falls into place.

 

[Ed O]

I have NEVER understood why anyone would waste a moment being upset at the commish of the NBA or any other sports league.

Ed O.

 

[BIG Q]

I have NEVER understood why anyone would waste a moment being upset at the commish of the NBA or any other sports league.

Ed O.

I am upest every time I hear a commish spout off about TV ratings. If their league is nothing with out NY, BOS, LA, CHI, and Philly winning the title then he is not doing his job properly. The NFL did fine with Green Bay winning the first two Super Bowls and other small market teams winning. If the NBA can only be successful in the commish's mind if the big market teams are winning then he needs to move all of the teams into those big markets. London has several soccer teams in the Premiership. Arsenal and Chelsea being the two most obvious. But then does he really want to alianate most of the country and have the NBA in six cities again like in 1947? Maybe he should just shut up about ratings so that many NBA fans do not believe he pulls the strings that make a BOS/LAL finals possible.

How in the hell can the NBA be thinking about expanding to Eueope when he has teams in US cities that he would rather not have in the playoffs?

 

[maxiep]

I have NEVER understood why anyone would waste a moment being upset at the commish of the NBA or any other sports league.

Ed O.

Don't you live in Seattle?

 

[Ed O]

How in the hell can the NBA be thinking about expanding to Eueope when he has teams in US cities that he would rather not have in the playoffs?

I think it's a pretty big leap to say he doesn't want certain teams in the playoffs based on market size.

How do you explain San Antonio winning all of the titles? Has he been conspiring against them for all of these years, but Pop and Tim D are just too much for him to handle?

Ed O.

 

[44Thrilla]

Us playing his beloved Celtics

There's so much bad blood between Stern and the Celtics franchise. I can't believe anybody could ever suggest that.

 

[Ed O]

Don't you live in Seattle?

Yes. People here (Seattle) are ridiculous.

They didn't want to pay for a new arena? Fine. Don't blame the team for looking for someplace that would.

The Mariners got a new stadium. The Seahawks did.

The Sonics lost tens of millions of dollars over the last several years, and there was never any effort for the city or state to subsidize the team to cover those losses... and then Sonics fans claim that they own the team more than Bennett, who absorbed those losses?

Ridiculous.

To blame STERN is even one more step outside of rationality, IMO. He doesn't work for the city of Seattle, nor for fans of the Sonics.

Ed O.

 

[hasoos]

Yes. People here (Seattle) are ridiculous.

They didn't want to pay for a new arena? Fine. Don't blame the team for looking for someplace that would.

The Mariners got a new stadium. The Seahawks did.

The Sonics lost tens of millions of dollars over the last several years, and there was never any effort for the city or state to subsidize the team to cover those losses... and then Sonics fans claim that they own the team more than Bennett, who absorbed those losses?

Ridiculous.

To blame STERN is even one more step outside of rationality, IMO. He doesn't work for the city of Seattle, nor for fans of the Sonics.

Ed O.

At the same time, how can the owner expect to put fans in the seat when he reams the team from the inside out so they have no chance to win games. If you set yourself up for fail, your going to fail. It is almost as bad as "Major League" without the team actually winning.

 

[maxiep]

Yes. People here (Seattle) are ridiculous.

They didn't want to pay for a new arena? Fine. Don't blame the team for looking for someplace that would.

The Mariners got a new stadium. The Seahawks did.

The Sonics lost tens of millions of dollars over the last several years, and there was never any effort for the city or state to subsidize the team to cover those losses... and then Sonics fans claim that they own the team more than Bennett, who absorbed those losses?

Ridiculous.

To blame STERN is even one more step outside of rationality, IMO. He doesn't work for the city of Seattle, nor for fans of the Sonics.

Ed O.

Schultz bought the team to keep it from being moved with the understanding that the City would help him out. It's not his fault the Ackerley's took the City's money and messed up Key Arena with it. Yet from the minute he purchased it, he was met with hostility by Nickels and his ilk.

As I understand it, the bonds for the Seahawks and Ms stadiums were paid early from a hotel tax. Why not just keep the bonds in place and use the proceeds to pay for a new Sonics arena? It's a win/win that would have been invisible to the Washington taxpayer.

That being said, Stern brokered Bennett's purchase of the Supes, knowing damn well what his plans were. His appearance in front of the Washington Legislature burned the last bridge. Bennett lost money because he sent the message to the fans that the Supes were gone. Losing that money gave him the case he needed to show that basketball in Seattle was a losing proposition. Modell did the same thing with the Browns.

C'mon Ed, you're smarter than this.

 

[SodaPopinski]

I have NEVER understood why anyone would waste a moment being upset at the commish of the NBA or any other sports league.

Ed O.

Honest question: what's it like going through life without a sense of humor?

-Pop

 

[Ed O]

Schultz bought the team to keep it from being moved with the understanding that the City would help him out. It's not his fault the Ackerley's took the City's money and messed up Key Arena with it. Yet from the minute he purchased it, he was met with hostility by Nickels and his ilk.

As I understand it, the bonds for the Seahawks and Ms stadiums were paid early from a hotel tax. Why not just keep the bonds in place and use the proceeds to pay for a new Sonics arena? It's a win/win that would have been invisible to the Washington taxpayer.

That being said, Stern brokered Bennett's purchase of the Supes, knowing damn well what his plans were. His appearance in front of the Washington Legislature burned the last bridge. Bennett lost money because he sent the message to the fans that the Supes were gone. Losing that money gave him the case he needed to show that basketball in Seattle was a losing proposition. Modell did the same thing with the Browns.

C'mon Ed, you're smarter than this.

Smarter than what?

Most of what you said I agree with and it's entirely consistent with my basic position: Seattle and King County and Washington didn't prize the Sonics highly enough to keep them from moving.

That's not Stern's fault.

The one area that people (you and hasoos) are ignoring is that the Sonics lost tens of millions of dollars under Schultz in the years before Bennett took over. That's inconsistent with the position that it's BENNETT (or Stern) at fault for the team's failures on the balance sheet.

Ed O.

 

[Ed O]

Honest question: what's it like going through life without a sense of humor?

I have a sense of humor. Maybe I'm just less angry than you are in the way we express our senses of humor.

Ed O.

 

[Ed O]

At the same time, how can the owner expect to put fans in the seat when he reams the team from the inside out so they have no chance to win games. If you set yourself up for fail, your going to fail. It is almost as bad as "Major League" without the team actually winning.

I don't see it that way at all. The Blazers were just as bad as the Sonics, and very few people thought they were undermining fan support.

Voters here just have other priorities. Which is fine... I don't blame them.

I DO blame people who point the finger at Stern for this community's decision-making.

Ed O.

 

[Jurassic]

I think it's a pretty big leap to say he doesn't want certain teams in the playoffs based on market size.

Ray Allen, and many other players would disagree with you. He was fined while in Milwakee for making comments about it. I think he would know better than you or I.

How do you explain San Antonio winning all of the titles? Has he been conspiring against them for all of these years, but Pop and Tim D are just too much for him to handle?

Ed O.

San Antonio winning titles did a lot for the NBA, think about it. The NBA is much more global now than ever. 2 of the 3 best players on the team (all three if you count Duncan as being from the Virgin Islands) are foreign. Their winning titles and all being allstars has done a lot for the league.

Yes. People here (Seattle) are ridiculous.

They didn't want to pay for a new arena? Fine. Don't blame the team for looking for someplace that would.

The Mariners got a new stadium. The Seahawks did.

That's idiotic. It's not completely unreasonable that we expected the Sonics to finish out their contract here. Rather than just Marbury it. It had little to do with the team wanting to leave, and a lot to do with a corrupt owner.

Did you follow the trial? There was proof that he was e-mailing his buddies about having "basketball come to Oklahoma next year" well before any of the stadium issues were resolved.

 

[maxiep]

Smarter than what?

Most of what you said I agree with and it's entirely consistent with my basic position: Seattle and King County and Washington didn't prize the Sonics highly enough to keep them from moving.

That's not Stern's fault.

The one area that people (you and hasoos) are ignoring is that the Sonics lost tens of millions of dollars under Schultz in the years before Bennett took over. That's inconsistent with the position that it's BENNETT (or Stern) at fault for the team's failures on the balance sheet.

Ed O.

And the price Stern set up was so high as to make it impossible for them to stay. Stern wanted to send a message to Sacramento, Milwaukee and every other franchise that needs a new arena--pony up or your team is gone. He used Seattle as his own personal Guernica.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Yes. People here (Seattle) are ridiculous.

They didn't want to pay for a new arena? Fine. Don't blame the team for looking for someplace that would.

The Mariners got a new stadium. The Seahawks did.

The Sonics lost tens of millions of dollars over the last several years, and there was never any effort for the city or state to subsidize the team to cover those losses... and then Sonics fans claim that they own the team more than Bennett, who absorbed those losses?

Ridiculous.

To blame STERN is even one more step outside of rationality, IMO. He doesn't work for the city of Seattle, nor for fans of the Sonics.

Ed O.

I blame Stern and his prior existing relationship with Bennett as one of the primary causes (ineptitude of the Seattle, King County and Washington State governments being the other) as why Kevin Durant is playing in OKC today. Bennett didn't "absorb" a single dollar loss that he didn't buy or create.

Why is Sacramento not moving from Arco, which is less recently renovated, also had a vote shot down by the public (something that never got to happen in Seattle), and no money for renovation? Because Stern isn't pals with the Maloofs.

You can debate whether it was good for the league or bad, right or wrong, but to insinuate that Stern isn't to blame for the Seattle/OKC situation is sticking your head in the sand.

I wouldn't have thought you'd be on that side of the discussion, Ed...frankly I'm surprised.

 

[Drink Your Milkshake]

Us playing his beloved Celtics on ESPN, he's going to have his goons (refs) out in full force.

Like when he gave Boston the #1 pic that allowed them to pick Oden, right? Boston doesn't need any help to beat the Blazers, they are an elite team.

 

[Ed O]

Ray Allen, and many other players would disagree with you. He was fined while in Milwakee for making comments about it. I think he would know better than you or I.

Well, if RAY ALLEN says it, it must be true!

Of course, the Bucks somehow made the playoffs repeatedly. Crazy how that works, huh?

San Antonio winning titles did a lot for the NBA, think about it. The NBA is much more global now than ever. 2 of the 3 best players on the team (all three if you count Duncan as being from the Virgin Islands) are foreign. Their winning titles and all being allstars has done a lot for the league.

Mmm hmm.

So what?

If Stern only cares about market size, then clearly he was trying to keep them out.

Further, the Spurs won titles before Manu and Parker were even on the team. How does that jibe with your position?

That's idiotic. It's not completely unreasonable that we expected the Sonics to finish out their contract here. Rather than just Marbury it. It had little to do with the team wanting to leave, and a lot to do with a corrupt owner.

Bullshit.

The people of Seattle and Washington had plenty of times and opportunities to build a new arena. They simply lacked the civil will.

There's nothing "corrupt" about Bennett wanting to take HIS team to HIS hometown, given the city of Seattle would not give him what he wants.

Did you follow the trial? There was proof that he was e-mailing his buddies about having "basketball come to Oklahoma next year" well before any of the stadium issues were resolved.

Of course I followed the trial. I'm a lawyer, a huge sports fan, and I live four blocks from Key Arena. How could I not follow it?

The emails are open to misinterpretation. I never saw an email where he explicitly said that he was going to move the team before the stadium issues were resolved. He said that he was working to avoid a lame duck-like situation, which means that he was working on moving the team OR that he was working on getting a stadium deal done.

In any event, the stadium issues were not going to be "resolved" until a new arena was built. Or until the lease ran out.

If the team were still in Seattle, there would still be an ongoing effort by some die-hard Sonics fans to get a new facility built. Asking Bennett to wait until every last opportunity to expire before he changed the situation is silly.

Ed O.

 

[Ed O]

And the price Stern set up was so high as to make it impossible for them to stay. Stern wanted to send a message to Sacramento, Milwaukee and every other franchise that needs a new arena--pony up or your team is gone. He used Seattle as his own personal Guernica.

It wasn't impossible for the team to stay. The city could have nutted up and paid for a new arena.

We didn't though, and it cost the city the Sonics. Again: that's not Stern's fault.

Ed O.

 

[Ed O]

I blame Stern and his prior existing relationship with Bennett as one of the primary causes (ineptitude of the Seattle, King County and Washington State governments being the other) as why Kevin Durant is playing in OKC today. Bennett didn't "absorb" a single dollar loss that he didn't buy or create.

Why is it acceptable for an owner to accept future losses based on existing contracts but NOT for the owner to exercise his rights to move the team to avoid losing money?

Why is Sacramento not moving from Arco, which is less recently renovated, also had a vote shot down by the public (something that never got to happen in Seattle), and no money for renovation? Because Stern isn't pals with the Maloofs.

I'm not up to speed on the Maloofs situation, but I seriously doubt that if they had a viable (non-Vegas) alternative that they REALLY wanted to move to that Stern would stand in their way.

You can debate whether it was good for the league or bad, right or wrong, but to insinuate that Stern isn't to blame for the Seattle/OKC situation is sticking your head in the sand.

I disagree. I'm repeating myself, but this city did not value the Sonics enough to keep them. It is not up to Stern to convince Seattle or Bennett or anyone else to continue a relationship that was doomed.

I wouldn't have thought you'd be on that side of the discussion, Ed...frankly I'm surprised.

Stern works for the owners. One of the owners is Bennett. If Bennett could get a better deal in OKC and have psychic income by bringing his home town a major sports franchise... I don't think that Stern would be doing his job by hindering the move.

Ed O.

 

[maxiep]

It wasn't impossible for the team to stay. The city could have nutted up and paid for a new arena.

We didn't though, and it cost the city the Sonics. Again: that's not Stern's fault.

Ed O.

As an attorney, I would hope that you understand that having Seattle pay for a brand new arena wasn't "reasonable" by any definition of the word after giving the Ackerleys $92MM just a few years ago. I don't hold Mayor Nickels or the Legislature blameless in this fiasco, but anyone can see that once Schultz sold the team, the NBA was not going to allow the Supes to stay in Seattle.

 

[Jurassic]

Well, if RAY ALLEN says it, it must be true!

Of course, the Bucks somehow made the playoffs repeatedly. Crazy how that works, huh?

Lots of things wrong with your statement.

1. The Bucks making the playoffs doesn't mean anything. Over half the teams in the NBA make the playoffs each year....obviously there are going to be some teams from smaller markets, right? I'm not saying that I agree with Ray's logic, but just because some teams make the playoffs each year (or did) doesn't mean that they are all going to be from major cities.

2. You obviously aren't familiar with what he said. His point was more about advancing in the playoffs. He argued that certain teams were helped to advance to help the NBA's ratings, not an unreasonable claim.

3. Ray's name has nothing to do with it, but way to try and twist my argument . But I think he has more knowledge about the topic than any of us. I just used his name as an example. Van Gundy, and many other players and coaches have said similar things.

If Stern only cares about market size, then clearly he was trying to keep them out.

Further, the Spurs won titles before Manu and Parker were even on the team. How does that jibe with your position?

Are you kidding me? How would keeping foreign players OUT increase market size. Look at what Yao Ming's arrival did for the league. Do you really think that he was beating out Shaq for the starting ASG spot every year because the NBA's market was limited to Americans? No, its because he had a lot of foreigners voting for him.

Houston Rockets' games are now televised in China. So I missed the part where foreign players coming to the NBA hurts the market. Please explain that to me.

The emails are open to misinterpretation.

Funny, isn't that the same argument that his lawyers used?

 

[maxiep]

It wasn't impossible for the team to stay. The city could have nutted up and paid for a new arena.

We didn't though, and it cost the city the Sonics. Again: that's not Stern's fault.

Ed O.

Yep. Nothing is "impossible". However, the remedy wasn't "reasonable". And in this case, "reasonable" supercedes "impossible".

 

[Ed O]

As an attorney, I would hope that you understand that having Seattle pay for a brand new arena wasn't "reasonable" by any definition of the word after giving the Ackerleys $92MM just a few years ago. I don't hold Mayor Nickels or the Legislature blameless in this fiasco, but anyone can see that once Schultz sold the team, the NBA was not going to allow the Supes to stay in Seattle.

That the city gave Ackerley $92m is irrelevant. Presumably that went into renovations of the Key Arena, which is (as I understand it) still owned by the city.

I don't know when that payment/credit/whatever was made, but given that Schultz bought the team at the beginning of 2001, any payments made to the previous ownership were made the better part of a decade before the team was moved.

It's pure hindsight Calvinist thinking to believe that Washington, King County, and Seattle could not have kept the Sonics if they had been willing to pay up for a new arena. Bennett would have GLADLY flipped the team to a new owner and used his profits to bring another team to OKC at the earliest opportunity.

Ed O.

 

[maxiep]

That the city gave Ackerley $92m is irrelevant. Presumably that went into renovations of the Key Arena, which is (as I understand it) still owned by the city.

I don't know when that payment/credit/whatever was made, but given that Schultz bought the team at the beginning of 2001, any payments made to the previous ownership were made the better part of a decade before the team was moved.

It's pure hindsight Calvinist thinking to believe that Washington, King County, and Seattle could not have kept the Sonics if they had been willing to pay up for a new arena. Bennett would have GLADLY flipped the team to a new owner and used his profits to bring another team to OKC at the earliest opportunity.

Ed O.

Again, no one is saying that Seattle couldn't have kept the team if they would have tried hard enough. The questions are whether or not Bennett negotiated in good faith and whether or not the remedy to keep them in Seattle was reasonable. You don't have to have a JD to understand that in both cases the answer is "no".