Thorn screwed up BADLY

[Jizzy]

the man who saved this team has now put the slary cap situation in a spiral mess. we'll do this one at a time:

RJ: extremely overpaid for a role player. he should be making about 8 mil a year but is at 12 mil. he has the most value out of our threesome but thats not saying much since no team wnats his contract, shows how great of a job thorn did

collins: wow, 6 mil a year, 24 mil overrall for a guy who averages 1/2 and plays every other game? after his contract is up, no team is gonna give him more then the min. onhe of the worst signings in nets history. luckily, he's an expiring contract next year.

Kidd: was worth it back then, franchise player so i cant really blame thorn for his contract NOW seeing as the spurs made him the same offer and he stupidly signed here. bet that stings him everyday.

vc: someone explain one thing to me, MJ in charlotte publicly came out and said he didnt want VC, otis smith called VC fools gold, there was NO market for vincey, why would we give him 60 million dollar deal? what possible compelled thorn to overpay a guy NOBODY else wnated, there was no race for him.

a trend? nope, thorn is an overrated GM. for all the accolades he gets for being a first class GM, he certainly overpays for his guys and has always. now, we are stuck with Kidd, vc and RJ as double D reported because nobody wants there contracts. our salary cap is constructed so poorly, all the money tied into three swingmen and for some reason, collins is the fourth highest paid player on our roster.

really, it's time for thorn to go.

 

[jirohkanzaki]

well at least we aren't the knicks...

 

[Joey FistPump]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 24 2008, 10:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>the man who saved this team has now put the slary cap situation in a spiral mess. we'll do this one at a time:

<span style="color:#FF0000">RJ: extremely overpaid for a role player. he should be making about 8 mil a year but is at 12 mil</span> he has the most value out of our threesome but thats not saying much since no team wnats his contract, shows how great of a job thorn did

<span style="color:#FF0000">collins: wow, 6 mil a year, 24 mil overrall</span> for a guy who averages 1/2 and plays every other game after his contract is up, no team is gonna give him more then the min. onhe of the worst signings in nets history. luckily, he's an expiring contract next year.

<span style="color:#FF0000">Kidd: was worth it back then</span>, franchise player so i cant really blame thorn for his contract NOW seeing as the spurs made him the same offer and he stupidly signed here. bet that stings him everyday.

vc: someone explain one thing to me, MJ in charlotte publicly came out and said he didnt want VC, otis smith called VC fools gold, there was NO market for vincey, <span style="color:#FF0000">why would we give him 60 million dollar deal</span>? what possible compelled thorn to overpay a guy NOBODY else wnated, there was no race for him.

a trend? nope, thorn is an overrated GM. for all the accolades he gets for being a first class GM, he certainly overpays for his guys and has always. now, we are stuck with Kidd, vc and RJ as double D reported because nobody wants there contracts. our salary cap is constructed so poorly, all the money tied into three swingmen and for some reason, collins is the fourth highest paid player on our roster.

really, it's time for thorn to go.</div>
Ok Jizzy...wow...lets take this one a time.

1) RJ is not a role player...a role player is someone who comes off the bench and fills a role. RJ is a starter who averages 23ppg. Almost everybody in the NBA who averages 20ppg is getting 12 mil plus to play...If Rashard Lewis and his 17ppg is worth 14 mil per in Orlando than RJ is certainly worth 12 per to us. His contract is not bad...he only has 3 years on it after this and will only be 30 when its up...meaning he is in his prime while playing out the length of the deal. 8 million a year would be an insult to RJ. Would I prefer 10? yeah but the reality is players get paid in the NBA...RJ is a player.

2) At the time he was averaging 6 and 5, was our starting Center and was on a team devoid of any bigmen and Collins took advantage. Yeah it sucks now because he isn't worth the money...At the time it made sense. Also next year he will be so valuable as an expiring contract its crazy.

3)If you dont have an argument against the Jason Kidd contract then don't bring it up...

4)This is the only thing I can agree with...It's not a problem this year but I have never understood teams giving contracts to players 30 plus in lengths longer than 3 years. I would have rather given him 3 years at 42 million than the insane 5 year deal. We should be making it a priority to trade him.

Thorn is not overrated...do I think he has done a poor job this year? Yeah maybe...however even with Vince's contract that I hate and the obviously poor bench it is still apparent that this team is underachieving. Thorn assembled a team that should be capable of making it deep into the playoffs and instead we are looking like a lottery team...That's on the players.

Thorn has been a great President for us but I think it may be time to retire. We need to rebuild and I don't think he has the will to do it again. Believe it or not we could rebuild in two to three years easily if we made the commitment to it. Work the draft, trade for draft picks, expiring contracts and young players and we could have a team similar to Portland by the time we move to Brooklyn.

 

[Kidd Karma]

Maybe Thorn had an under the table agreement with VC's side. Remember VC had an option for 16 million this season. He declined it. Him pulling in 16 million this season would put the Nets over the lux tax. Thus, Thorn asked, VC to decline and we'll give you a longer term deal at that insane amount of cash.

 

[footswalker]

The best part of the original post is that it notes that Collins is the Nets' 4th highest paid player. I mean... WOW. I knew he was making a ridiculous 6 mil, but didn't realize he was the 4th highest on the team. That just says it ALL right there. You don't even need to look further to see why this team is completely effed. There were other options in Collins contract year, and Thorne decided not to pursue them. Huge, gargantuan, EE-normous mistake. And he's here for another year. Unreal. At least he won't see Brooklyn (I hope).

 

[NOMAM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 24 2008, 10:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>vc: someone explain one thing to me, MJ in charlotte publicly came out and said he didnt want VC, otis smith called VC fools gold, there was NO market for vincey, why would we give him 60 million dollar deal? what possible compelled thorn to overpay a guy NOBODY else wnated, there was no race for him.</div>

You will keep repeating it anyways, but here, from a Magic fan who heard the radio interview in the context Otis Smith made the fools gold comment.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Originally Posted by Hairy Midget
How many times do I have to tell you the truth about the "fools gold" comment?

READ THIS ABOUT THE FOOLS GOLD COMMENT SO I DONT HAVE TO REPEAT MYSELF AGAIN

I listened to the radio show that he said this quote on at the time it was made. He did not call Vince Carter fools gold, he called the idea of trading several of our young core players for one older player that is an FA at the end of the season "fools gold."

Please stop bringing it up in all of your arguments.</div>

Also:

No lie: Magic did inquire about Carter

And Carter wasn't overpaid.

 

[Jizzy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Jan 24 2008, 02:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 24 2008, 10:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>vc: someone explain one thing to me, MJ in charlotte publicly came out and said he didnt want VC, otis smith called VC fools gold, there was NO market for vincey, why would we give him 60 million dollar deal? what possible compelled thorn to overpay a guy NOBODY else wnated, there was no race for him.</div>

You will keep repeating it anyways, but here, from a Magic fan who heard the radio interview in the context Otis Smith made the fools gold comment.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Originally Posted by Hairy Midget
How many times do I have to tell you the truth about the "fools gold" comment?

READ THIS ABOUT THE FOOLS GOLD COMMENT SO I DONT HAVE TO REPEAT MYSELF AGAIN

I listened to the radio show that he said this quote on at the time it was made. He did not call Vince Carter fools gold, he called the idea of trading several of our young core players for one older player that is an FA at the end of the season "fools gold."

Please stop bringing it up in all of your arguments.</div>

Also:

No lie: Magic did inquire about Carter

And Carter wasn't overpaid.
</div>


a magic fan isnt exactly the most credible guy to listen to. second, Carter is overpaid or do you think he's worth 60 million? at age 30 and is on the decline?

 

[Jizzy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jirohkanzaki @ Jan 24 2008, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>well at least we aren't the knicks...</div>
the knicks are better then us. cant really look down on them anymore

 

[Lavalamp]

Why did Kidd sign with New Jersey instead of San Antonio if both teams were offering 20 mill per year?

 

[Petey]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Jan 24 2008, 03:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Why did Kidd sign with New Jersey instead of San Antonio if both teams were offering 20 mill per year?</div>

Some think, myself included that his wife wanted to stay to further her career. New York spotlight > San Antonio.

-Petey

 

[cpawfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Jan 24 2008, 03:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Why did Kidd sign with New Jersey instead of San Antonio if both teams were offering 20 mill per year?</div>

One theory is Joumana's TV career

 

[NOMAM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 24 2008, 03:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>a magic fan isnt exactly the most credible guy to listen to. second, Carter is overpaid or do you think he's worth 60 million? at age 30 and is on the decline?</div>

And what exactly is your source for the comment then? Anyways, here is another source, Magic Confidential (which I believe is from the Orlando Sentinel), which gives the same explanation:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>On a final not, I received a lot of questions about Otis and his comment about Vince Carter being ?€œfools gold.?€? And if there was true interest in Carter because of this comment. Well to set the record straight, the comment Otis made was made in the context of making a trade for Carter. I understood it as that Otis felt mortgaging the teams future by giving up Darko and Trevor in a deal for Carter was fools gold. The fools gold comment had nothing to do with what he thought of Vince as a player.


Credit: MagicConfid</div>

And Carter is making 13 million this season which is pretty reasonable compared to other swingmen in this league and the last year of his contract has a team option. The year before his team option his contract tops out at 17.3 million in 10/11. And by that time it could be considered 17.3 million expiring contract if his game takes a precipitous decline which is taking a negative view on things.

 

[Petey]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Jan 24 2008, 03:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And Carter is making 13 million this season which is pretty reasonable compared to other swingmen in this league and the last year of his contract has a team option. The year before his team option his contract tops out at 17.3 million in 10/11. And by that time it could be considered 17.3 million expiring contract if his game takes a precipitous decline which is taking a negative view on things.</div>

I think Jizzy looking at it in another way. His value won't determine if he is overpaid or underpaid. But from a market standpoint. For example if he had signed for 1 million dollars, but had no other bid, that would be great value, but in correlation to the market he is overpaid. His point seemed like without anyone shopping against Thorn, he should or could had held out for a contract more in the Nets' favor.

-Petey

 

[NOMAM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Jan 24 2008, 04:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Jan 24 2008, 03:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And Carter is making 13 million this season which is pretty reasonable compared to other swingmen in this league and the last year of his contract has a team option. The year before his team option his contract tops out at 17.3 million in 10/11. And by that time it could be considered 17.3 million expiring contract if his game takes a precipitous decline which is taking a negative view on things.</div>

I think Jizzy looking at it in another way. His value won't determine if he is overpaid or underpaid. But from a market standpoint. For example if he had signed for 1 million dollars, but had no other bid, that would be great value, but in correlation to the market he is overpaid. His point seemed like without anyone shopping against Thorn, he should or could had held out for a contract more in the Nets' favor.

-Petey
</div>

Except both sides were interested in getting a reasonable deal done with each other that they both could be happy with and thats what happened. It wasn't the Nets not wanting to negotiate and letting Vince start looking more actively elsewhere and if he didn't find any suitors trying to low ball him with an offer. Which, if they did, he could of just held onto his player option and the Nets could have risked souring relations with him and losing him for nothing later on.

 

[Petey]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Jan 24 2008, 04:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Except both sides were interested in getting a reasonable deal done with each other that they both could be happy with and thats what happened. It wasn't the Nets not wanting to negotiate and letting Vince start looking more actively elsewhere and if he didn't find any suitors trying to low ball him with an offer. Which, if they did, he could of just held onto his player option and the Nets could have risked souring relations with him and losing him for nothing later on.</div>

How does this not factor in his view of him being overpaid? A reasonable or fair offer doesn't sound like going for the best offer.

-Petey

 

[MaxaMillion711]

also in re: to fools gold...

i remember he clarified that comment and said that its fools gold to trade for vince and have him leave in FA that summer...

so there goes that argument

hehe, your funny when you vent

 

[NOMAM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Jan 24 2008, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Jan 24 2008, 04:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Except both sides were interested in getting a reasonable deal done with each other that they both could be happy with and thats what happened. It wasn't the Nets not wanting to negotiate and letting Vince start looking more actively elsewhere and if he didn't find any suitors trying to low ball him with an offer. Which, if they did, he could of just held onto his player option and the Nets could have risked souring relations with him and losing him for nothing later on.</div>

How does this not factor in his view of him being overpaid? A reasonable or fair offer doesn't sound like going for the best offer.

-Petey
</div>

What?

When I go on Craigslist and I see a shiny new bike for $100, I'm not going to contact that person and offer $1 just because it would be the best price for me because I know it's a low ball offer and that the seller would just ignore it or worse sign up my email to a spam service. There are two sides when it comes to negotiations.

 

[Petey]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Jan 24 2008, 04:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Jan 24 2008, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Jan 24 2008, 04:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Except both sides were interested in getting a reasonable deal done with each other that they both could be happy with and thats what happened. It wasn't the Nets not wanting to negotiate and letting Vince start looking more actively elsewhere and if he didn't find any suitors trying to low ball him with an offer. Which, if they did, he could of just held onto his player option and the Nets could have risked souring relations with him and losing him for nothing later on.</div>

How does this not factor in his view of him being overpaid? A reasonable or fair offer doesn't sound like going for the best offer.

-Petey
</div>

What?

When I go on Craigslist and I see a shiny new bike for $100, I'm not going to contact that person and offer $1 just because it would be the best price for me because I know it's a low ball offer and that the seller would just ignore it or worse sign up my email to a spam service. There are two sides when it comes to negotiations.
</div>


There are 2 sides to a negotiation, and there are logical starting points. Like Carter would had signed elsewhere for the MLE, all money being equal if the teams with cap space won't want to sign with him. So the starting amount would be over the MLE. And other factors should play in to. You are using a pretty extreme case/example.

Do you think if Thorn had pressed to take a deal that was 1 million less a year, over the life of the contract, he would had signed for the MLE or less elsewhere?

-Petey

 

[NOMAM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Jan 24 2008, 04:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>There are 2 sides to a negotiation, and there are logical starting points. Like Carter would had signed elsewhere for the MLE, all money being equal if the teams with cap space won't want to sign with him. So the starting amount would be over the MLE. And other factors should play in to. You are using a pretty extreme case/example.

Do you think if Thorn had pressed to take a deal that was 1 million less a year, over the life of the contract, he would had signed for the MLE or less elsewhere?

-Petey</div>

Another logical starting point in negotiations could also have been such and such make this much around the league. Or I made this much last year but to stay in Jersey I'll take a pay cut of about 2-3 million from what I'll make next season.

And maybe Thorn already negotiated the price down from a higher point during the negotiations and they both agreed on it. After all, if Carter didn't opt out of his contract he would have been paid like 15-16 million this season so he did take a pay cut this season.

 

[Black Republican]

rj is overpaid as ****

 

[ghoti]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (footswalker @ Jan 24 2008, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The best part of the original post is that it notes that Collins is the Nets' 4th highest paid player. I mean... WOW. I knew he was making a ridiculous 6 mil, but didn't realize he was the 4th highest on the team. That just says it ALL right there. You don't even need to look further to see why this team is completely effed.</div>

Portland is paying Steve Francis, Raef LaFrentz and Darius Miles $34M this season and $37M next season.

They must be REALLY effed!

 

[Kidd Karma]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Jan 24 2008, 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Jan 24 2008, 04:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>There are 2 sides to a negotiation, and there are logical starting points. Like Carter would had signed elsewhere for the MLE, all money being equal if the teams with cap space won't want to sign with him. So the starting amount would be over the MLE. And other factors should play in to. You are using a pretty extreme case/example.

Do you think if Thorn had pressed to take a deal that was 1 million less a year, over the life of the contract, he would had signed for the MLE or less elsewhere?

-Petey</div>

Another logical starting point in negotiations could also have been such and such make this much around the league. Or I made this much last year but to stay in Jersey I'll take a pay cut of about 2-3 million from what I'll make next season.

And maybe Thorn already negotiated the price down from a higher point during the negotiations and they both agreed on it. After all, if Carter didn't opt out of his contract he would have been paid like 15-16 million this season so he did take a pay cut this season.
</div>

Where have I heard that before, oh, most of the core Spurs have done that. Another thought, was there talk of VC even entertaining Magic offers? Is so would he have sniffed what Lewis got?

 

[Jizzy]

NOMAM, see Kidd Karma and Petey...

 

[Jizzy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 24 2008, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (footswalker @ Jan 24 2008, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The best part of the original post is that it notes that Collins is the Nets' 4th highest paid player. I mean... WOW. I knew he was making a ridiculous 6 mil, but didn't realize he was the 4th highest on the team. That just says it ALL right there. You don't even need to look further to see why this team is completely effed.</div>

Portland is paying Steve Francis, Raef LaFrentz and Darius Miles $34M this season and $37M next season.

They must be REALLY effed!
</div>
they have great value on guys with rookie contracts. i'll take roy, aldridge and oden anyday!

 

[NOMAM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kidd Karma @ Jan 24 2008, 06:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Where have I heard that before, oh, most of the core Spurs have done that. Another thought, was there talk of VC even entertaining Magic offers? Is so would he have sniffed what Lewis got?</div>

What specifically are you referring to with what the Spurs have done? I don't know what happened between Vince and the Magic but what does seem clear was that the Nets and Vince were interested in getting a deal done with each other.

 

[NOMAM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 24 2008, 06:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>NOMAM, see Kidd Karma and Petey...</div>

I already have replied to them. What about you? Still going to repeat the Vince fool's gold comment?

 

[cpawfan]

After the 2004-2005 season, Thorn could have trade Vince for a lot. That was the screw up.

Vince's current contract was a given from the moment the opting out talk started. Vince wasn't going to opt out of 16 million without some assurances

 

[SportsTicker]

Jizzy should post less, then I would post more.

 

[Jizzy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetIncome @ Jan 24 2008, 08:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jizzy should post less, then I would post more.</div>
I knew this thread would attract you. you just got to learn to deal with reality and get over thorn. i dont understand what benefits there are for you for being obsessed with thorn. he doesnt pay you, mister. or does he. what do you know?!

 

[Joey FistPump]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 24 2008, 07:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>After the 2004-2005 season, Thorn could have trade Vince for a lot. That was the screw up.</div>
You can't really blame Thorn for that...I mean Jefferson had been hurt the entire season and it was looking like we were gonna add SAR to the trio of Kidd, RJ, VC and Krstic was looking like he was a future all star. I don't think there was a GM in the league that would have been looking to trade Carter with the team we had or at least thought we had.