Two Deep vs. Too Deep

[Nikolokolus]

Pure horseshit.

Steve Blake
Joel Przybilla
Travis Outlaw
Greg Oden
Martel Webster
and more

All have no problem coming off the bench for the good of the team. Go ahead and tell them they're not good enough to be starters.

Way to stay classy.

And I'm not talking about Joel and Steve who project as career backups, I'm talking about guys who are almost exclusively on rookie scale deals, who have a lot to prove in the league, and without minutes and production are wasting their one big shot to make an impact and show what they are worth.

Nicolas
Travis
Webster
Jerryd
Sergio
Channing
Ike
Rudy

The only one on that list who is locked up long term is Martell, but everyone else is on their first deal or is coming up on a team option (Travis) and need to get on the court to earn their next contract. No way in hell you can keep all 8 of them happy when you have Blake and Joel getting heavy minutes, and Brandon, Greg and Lamarcus are all going to get their 35+

 

[Pinwheel1]

Way to stay classy.

And I'm not talking about Joel and Steve who project as career backups, I'm talking about guys who are almost exclusively on rookie scale deals, who have a lot to prove in the league, and without minutes and production are wasting their one big shot to make an impact and show what they are worth.

Nicolas
Travis
Webster
Jerryd
Sergio
Channing
Ike
Rudy

The only one on that list who is locked up long term is Martell, but everyone else is on their first deal or is coming up on a team option (Travis) and need to get on the court to earn their next contract. No way in hell you can keep all 8 of them happy when you have Blake and Joel getting heavy minutes, and Brandon, Greg and Lamarcus are all going to get their 35+

Nicolas, Jerryd, and Rudy (along with Webster as you mentioned) are all locked up for at least 3 more years if we want them to. And we do. So that leaves Ike and Channing. (Travis will get his minutes) So I fail to see the urgency to make sure they get their minutes that will ensure they get a better new contract. I hear what you are saying, but we are not there yet. And the theory that are losing trade value by sitting is also ridiculous IMO. Most of the GM's in this league are brighter than the average poster. Let this year play out. Unless KP gets a deal he can not refuse.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Nicolas, Jerryd, and Rudy (along with Webster as you mentioned) are all locked up for at least 3 more years if we want them to. And we do. So that leaves Ike and Channing. (Travis will get his minutes) So I fail to see the urgency to make sure they get their minutes that will ensure they get a better new contract. I hear what you are saying, but we are not there yet. And the theory that are losing trade value by sitting is also ridiculous IMO. Most of the GM's in this league are brighter than the average poster. Let this year play out. Unless KP gets a deal he can not refuse.

I never said it's a problem right now and frankly I'm pretty sure KP knows the right levers to pull and when to pull them, but I think it's funny how some people around here don't see the looming minute crunch as having any downside.

These players (for the most part) are all in the league because they want to make money and play, riding the pine on a winning team can work for awhile, but eventually everyone with an ounce of pride gets tired of picking splinters out of their ass and is going to want their shot. If you are Glen Davis playing behind Kevin Garnett you know two things: 1) Garnett is way better than you and 2) he's going to be retiring in a few years so it's probably OK to bide your time. If you are Jerryd Bayless and your idling behind another young guy in Sergio, the talent disparity isn't as wide and there's no imminent retirement to look forward to. Enough time goes by not playing and guys start asking for trades -- and they should.

 

[tlongII]

Inherently a team that is laden with too much talent distributed fairly evenly over the entire team will implode. It is just too difficult to manage. If you have a 12 man roster with two 90 rated players, three 80 rated players and then 5 70 rated players and a couple of 50 rated players it is going to be pretty difficult to tell the 2 or 3 70 rated players who would be 6th or 7th men on other teams that they are not going to play or will play less than 10 minutes a night. It is a waste of talent and it creates a situation that could explode. "Too Deep" is a great problem to have, and isn't that hard to rectify, but IMO it is still a problem that should be fixed to contend for a championship.

False. A team with an over-abundance of talent may begin to implode over the course of a couple of years, but that isn't the case with our team. There is no reason to make a trade to consolidate talent this year. All of the players genuinely like each other and they are young enough to accept playing a limited role for this year. We have a chance to win the championship this year with the team constructed as it currently is. Making a trade over the summer might be a good idea, but not now.

 

[graybeard]

Way to stay classy.

And I'm not talking about Joel and Steve who project as career backups, I'm talking about guys who are almost exclusively on rookie scale deals, who have a lot to prove in the league, and without minutes and production are wasting their one big shot to make an impact and show what they are worth.

Nicolas
Travis
Webster
Jerryd
Sergio
Channing
Ike
Rudy

The only one on that list who is locked up long term is Martell, but everyone else is on their first deal or is coming up on a team option (Travis) and need to get on the court to earn their next contract. No way in hell you can keep all 8 of them happy when you have Blake and Joel getting heavy minutes, and Brandon, Greg and Lamarcus are all going to get their 35+

Look, your basic premise is wrong. Because it's built on a faulty theory you've ended up out on this tangent and I'm not going to follow you out there and argue it with you.

Have you ever heard of someone that really knows basketball subscribe to your theory? I know the blazer brass doesn't. You don't hear them talking about too much talent. Please enlighten me if you've EVER heard KP or Nate even mutter anything about too much talent. What you hear instead is all this talk about "culture" and getting/keeping team players. You're not going to hear the players talking about it either. I've never ever heard a player say that there is too much talent on his team. They'll bitch about playing time and money but if you hear them bitching about too much talent on their team they should be cut or traded because they have no concept what a team is about.
The term Garbage in = Garbage out, applies here. Your basic premise is faulty, so your conclusions are wrong.

 

[Pinwheel1]

I never said it's a problem right now and frankly I'm pretty sure KP knows the right levers to pull and when to pull them, but I think it's funny how some people around here don't see the looming minute crunch as having any downside.

These players (for the most part) are all in the league because they want to make money and play, riding the pine on a winning team can work for awhile, but eventually everyone with an ounce of pride gets tired of picking splinters out of their ass and is going to want their shot. .

We will have to agree to disagree here. Because as i have said in other threads, I realize it CAN be a problem, but at the same time it isn't right now AND it doesn't change the fact that if KP does "consolidate" this year that he won't come away with two more young studs this summer and be in the exact same situation next year. (Or every year for that matter) There are 15 roster spots and literally a whole world of talent out there. And with our scouts doing a good job internationally it is not inconceivable that we always have a bunch of talented young players on the end of the bench collecting splinters. I doubt that you can talk KP out of loading up the team with as much talent as possible.

Veterans also can complain about playing time. As they need to play for that LAST contract. The key is just finding the right players. But realistically you will always have a couple of unhappy players.

 

[graybeard]

We will have to agree to disagree here. Because as i have said in other threads, I realize it CAN be a problem, but at the same time it isn't right now AND it doesn't change the fact that if KP does "consolidate" this year that he won't come away with two more young studs this summer and be in the exact same situation next year. (Or every year for that matter) There are 15 roster spots and literally a whole world of talent out there. And with our scouts doing a good job internationally it is not inconceivable that we always have a bunch of talented young players on the end of the bench collecting splinters. I doubt that you can talk KP out of loading up the team with as much talent as possible.

Veterans also can complain about playing time. As they need to play for that LAST contract. The key is just finding the right players. But realistically you will always have a couple of unhappy players.

Damned well said, PW

 

[Sedatedfork]

False. A team with an over-abundance of talent may begin to implode over the course of a couple of years, but that isn't the case with our team. There is no reason to make a trade to consolidate talent this year. All of the players genuinely like each other and they are young enough to accept playing a limited role for this year. We have a chance to win the championship this year with the team constructed as it currently is. Making a trade over the summer might be a good idea, but not now.

I hope you are right, because changes in the offseason make for a better transition and I love watching this team. But where the hell do you put Webster in this lineup? Personally, I am going to miss seeing Batum in this lineup after Webster comes back. I am not necessarily clamoring for a trade right now, but if the target is Hinrich then you are probably going to get your best value in the next couple of months. I am just speculating here, like many, but I think KP will be making a trade soon. If not, OK. I just hope that KP doesn't wait too long. If the chemistry starts going downhill, we will be forced to make a trade as opposed to being able to trade from a position of strength.

 

[tlongII]

I hope you are right, because changes in the offseason make for a better transition and I love watching this team. But where the hell do you put Webster in this lineup? Personally, I am going to miss seeing Batum in this lineup after Webster comes back. I am not necessarily clamoring for a trade right now, but if the target is Hinrich then you are probably going to get your best value in the next couple of months. I am just speculating here, like many, but I think KP will be making a trade soon. If not, OK. I just hope that KP doesn't wait too long. If the chemistry starts going downhill, we will be forced to make a trade as opposed to being able to trade from a position of strength.

Are you sure Batum won't be in the lineup when Webster returns? I'm not. I'm sure Nate will figure out what the best combination of players is. It may take a few games, but he'll figure it out.

 

[Minstrel]

There are 15 roster spots and literally a whole world of talent out there. And with our scouts doing a good job internationally it is not inconceivable that we always have a bunch of talented young players on the end of the bench collecting splinters. I doubt that you can talk KP out of loading up the team with as much talent as possible.

I hope Pritchard does exactly that--load up the team with as much talent as possible. And I hope he continually makes "consolidation" trades to convert some of those talented kids at the end of the bench into better talent in the top six players on the roster.

Repeat forever. Sounds great to me.

So, we're in the first iteration of that cycle. He's loaded the roster with talent. Now we should do the first consolidation trade. Not to lower the talent level on the roster, but to change the talent distribution, top-loading the roster.

 

[Pinwheel1]

I hope Pritchard does exactly that--load up the team with as much talent as possible. And I hope he continually makes "consolidation" trades to convert some of those talented kids at the end of the bench into better talent in the top six players on the roster.

Repeat forever. Sounds great to me.

So, we're in the first iteration of that cycle. He's loaded the roster with talent. Now we should do the first consolidation trade. Not to lower the talent level on the roster, but to change the talent distribution, top-loading the roster.

I think he will. He will always LOOK to make moves to make the team better. But he won't make moves just to keep a couple of players happy. Because again it is a never ending cycle.

 

[bodyman5001]

I hope Pritchard does exactly that--load up the team with as much talent as possible. And I hope he continually makes "consolidation" trades to convert some of those talented kids at the end of the bench into better talent in the top six players on the roster.

Repeat forever. Sounds great to me.

So, we're in the first iteration of that cycle. He's loaded the roster with talent. Now we should do the first consolidation trade. Not to lower the talent level on the roster, but to change the talent distribution, top-loading the roster.

This reminds me of an idea I had. If you could always just trade with someone but get the better of the deal, even if only slightly you could end up with something good.

Using a car analogy like I often do, trade a Pinto for a Tempo.

Then a Tempo for a Taurus. Taurus for Impala. Impala for Grand Marquis. Grand Marquis for Maxima.

And so on and so forth, eventually KP could turn these guys into something better.

 

[STOMP]

Huh? Other than a catchy headline, who ever said they had too much talent? Too deep and too much talent are very different things... Their most talented players (Pippen and Sabonis) were well past their prime, and the rest of the group wasn't quite talented enough to overcome LA's [super] star power.

come game 7 in 2000, PIP was severely limited with a finger injury on his shooting hand. As faded past his prime as he was, up till game 6 he was flat incredible. But then he suffered an injury and that can happen to anyone in any game. I would agree that star power affected Sabas's series though. 3 fouls in 2 minutes of play in the 4th quarter (two for being elbowed in the face and neck) speak to LA*'s star power superiority. Portland might stand a little chance of countering that star power now if Greg develops because he should be able to move product nationally but I suspect LA* will always have the upper hand there

STOMP

 

[Masbee]

I am baffled by a couple of posters contention in this thread that our minutes cruch, too many young players wanting to play problems are NOT currently a problem and there is no reason to 1) worry about it and 2) start preparing to do anything about it. Let the season ride they say. We have team first players, and the "culture" of the team will out. Let KP fix it next summer they say.

First, didn't they notice that it IS A PROBLEM ALREADY? Sergio made a trade demand. Folks, that is just the tiny tip of the freakin iceberg.

Second, several of our players are pumpkins. Trade them this season or the contract situation makes them less valuable, in some instances zero. You can't wait any more for a good consolidation trade. To get good value for traded players you need to showcase them. We can't showcase all the available guys at once. If you let the season ride, the players who lose out the minutes battle, will fetch a fraction of their potential worth in an off-season consolidation trade.

So, tell me, how is KP going to make a consolidation trade next summer where he takes players that didn't get burn on our team and have poor contract situations and turn several of those guys into one really great player?

Answer: He probably can't. We will just end up with the same type of players from some other team. Musical players. Similar players, different faces. Or end up with a long in the tooth vet. Or a future pick. Knowing KP he might end up on the sweet side when it is all done, but you can't expect him to take several players that will have low value this summer and turn it into a quality prime vet. Won't happen.

 

[tlongII]

I am baffled by a couple of posters contention in this thread that our minutes cruch, too many young players wanting to play problems are NOT currently a problem and there is no reason to 1) worry about it and 2) start preparing to do anything about it. Let the season ride they say. We have team first players, and the "culture" of the team will out. Let KP fix it next summer they say.

First, didn't they notice that it IS A PROBLEM ALREADY? Sergio made a trade demand. Folks, that is just the tiny tip of the freakin iceberg.

Second, several of our players are pumpkins. Trade them this season or the contract situation makes them less valuable, in some instances zero. You can't wait any more for a good consolidation trade. To get good value for traded players you need to showcase them. We can't showcase all the available guys at once. If you let the season ride, the players who lose out the minutes battle, will fetch a fraction of their potential worth in an off-season consolidation trade.

So, tell me, how is KP going to make a consolidation trade next summer where he takes players that didn't get burn on our team and have poor contract situations and turn several of those guys into one really great player?

Answer: He probably can't. We will just end up with the same type of players from some other team. Musical players. Similar players, different faces. Or end up with a long in the tooth vet. Or a future pick. Knowing KP he might end up on the sweet side when it is all done, but you can't expect him to take several players that will have low value this summer and turn it into a quality prime vet. Won't happen.

Baloney. First of all, Sergio didn't demand anything, his agent did. Did Sergio want to play more? Yes, and guess what? He is. As far as "tip of the iceberg" goes...HUH? There has been nothing voiced by any other player. We don't need to break up the cohesion of this team by acquiring some mythical "quality vet."

 

[Masbee]

Baloney. First of all, Sergio didn't demand anything, his agent did. Did Sergio want to play more? Yes, and guess what? He is. As far as "tip of the iceberg" goes...HUH? There has been nothing voiced by any other player. We don't need to break up the cohesion of this team by acquiring some mythical "quality vet."

Baloney back at ya.

Sergio's agent is his AGENT.

Look up the word.

Unless Sergio fired that agent and completely renounced his actions - the actions of the agent have been on behalf of Sergio and his best interests.

I am surprised you are so uninformed about this typical professional sports behavior.

And Sergio playing more means what?

Maybe he is being showcased.

Maybe he is being placated.

If he is being showcased, that only goes to show that my long-held postition on this subject (too many decent young players to handle) is correct, and the team by delaying the inevitable, are having to deal with a PROBLEM.

If he is being placated, then this action undermines the coach, cracks at the foundation of the team "culture" of sacrifice and will do nothing but encourage similar behavior from other players.

 

[handiman]

First of all, Sergio didn't demand anything, his agent did. Did Sergio want to play more? Yes, and guess what? He is.

Yeah, and what happens when the next guy down the bench (Bayless?) realizes that having his agent complain publicly will get him more playing time, just like Sergio? Nate didn't put a very convincing spin on the coincidental timing of Sergio getting more PT...

 

[BrianFromWA]

You mean, like you can't trade Marc Gasol, Javaris Crittendon (young, low value players not getting burn), Kwame Brown (exp. contract) and future picks for Pau Gasol (All-Star, quality prime vet)? Really?

 

[Masbee]

You mean, like you can't trade Marc Gasol, Javaris Crittendon (young, low value players not getting burn), Kwame Brown (exp. contract) and future picks for Pau Gasol (All-Star, quality prime vet)? Really?

We won't have the RLEC this summer. Has to be trade during the season before the deadline. Pumkins people. Pumpkins.

 

[drexlersdad]

i would like to see 2 consolidation trades, involving raef/webster/frye//blake/ike/#1 netting us upgrades at the sf AND pg. hinrich and GWallace please.

but if we let raef expire, i think we will make a run at marvin williams.

 

[Pinwheel1]

So, tell me, how is KP going to make a consolidation trade next summer where he takes players that didn't get burn on our team and have poor contract situations and turn several of those guys into one really great player?

Who are you talking about? You want to trade Bayless? Because as far as i can see he is the only player not getting "BURN". The other is IKE and Ike ain't going to bring you what you want no matter how much he plays.
When Webster comes back yes he will take sombody's minutes (Probably Frye's) but Frye has already gotten enough minutes for GM's to know what he is all about.

So who do you want to trade that is not getting (or won't be getting) any burn? Personally i do not want to trade Bayless

 

[BrianFromWA]

i would like to see 2 consolidation trades, involving raef/webster/frye//blake/ike/#1 netting us upgrades at the sf AND pg. hinrich and GWallace please.

but if we let raef expire, i think we will make a run at marvin williams.

I agree with statement 1A, mostly with statement 1B, and not at all with 1C. If all we get is Hinrich and Wallace for all that (some would say "crap"), then I'll have lost a little faith in KP.

If you look at all of the "magic" things KP has done, it's been mostly in the realm of players we haven't seen much of before. He knew Roy was going to be better than Telfair. He knew Rudy would be so amazing that it would be worth giving up Z-bo. He had LMA over Thomas and AmMo. He targeted Batum and Sergio. He pulled Kopo and Freeland with 6M cash.

But most of us in here could break down the pros and cons of Hinrich and Wallace, because we see them a lot on TV, playing against the players they'd be playing with everyday (as opposed to, say, my feelings about Blake Griffin, b/c I haven't seen him play pros yet). He also has a much better sense of how desperate owners and GMs are about lux tax situations, like what exactly Sarver needs to sell a draft pick, or how much Raef is actually worth around the league (which is actually a heckuva lot).

I haven't seen many deals of KP's where he's found how much guys have left in the tank (like Kidd or Nash, for instance). He has found "breakout guys" (James Jones, Ime Udoka), which is why I wouldn't be surprised if we targeted Sessions or Marvin. I think he's capable of the "splash trade", but hasn't had the opportunity (due to injuries) or is watching the price rise as we get closer to the deadline.

Long story short...I think we end up with breakout studs, aging guys who have something left, or unknown guys who blow up. Not known entities who are just "solid"...not for our valuable "scraps".

Salinger out.

 

[tlongII]

Baloney back at ya.

Sergio's agent is his AGENT.

Look up the word.

Unless Sergio fired that agent and completely renounced his actions - the actions of the agent have been on behalf of Sergio and his best interests.

I am surprised you are so uninformed about this typical professional sports behavior.

And Sergio playing more means what?

Maybe he is being showcased.

Maybe he is being placated.

If he is being showcased, that only goes to show that my long-held postition on this subject (too many decent young players to handle) is correct, and the team by delaying the inevitable, are having to deal with a PROBLEM.

If he is being placated, then this action undermines the coach, cracks at the foundation of the team "culture" of sacrifice and will do nothing but encourage similar behavior from other players.

So where is the problem dude? Cause I don't see one? I haven't heard of anyone else complaining. I don't know if Sergio is being "placated" or not, but the fact he's getting more minutes is warranted. I don't think any of the other players have a problem with that. I'm surprised that you don't recognize the special chemistry this team has. This is not something you see often.