OT "Undocumented" immigrant kills NFL player while DUI

[BrianFromWA]

Driver who hit Colts linebacker was an undocumented immigrant, police say
By Kimberly Hutcherson, CNN

Aside from the concept that anyone driving drunk in America today, especially 3x the limit, should be pretty harshly dealt with the first time it happens (get a damn uber!), I don't quite understand journalism rules on this. The article says:

Detectives said Orrego-Savala is a citizen of Guatemala who is in the United States illegally and was deported twice, in 2007 and 2009.

The byline says that "Police say (he's) undocumented"
I understand that CNN is generally lefty-leaning at this point, but when did "illegal" become "undocumented"? Like, he left his license in his other pants or something? Can they just editorialize a quote like that? (I mean, I guess the answer is "yes", b/c it happened, or there's a quote in someone's notes or something that says that)

I mean, even the WaPo says he was here illegally.

Note, I'm not using this to point out that we should snatch up every brown-skinned man in the ATL area and send them to a shithole country. I'm not even wondering how a twice-deported person with a DUI even gets to stay here after "multiple other misdemeanor criminal convictions and arrests in California and Indiana." I'm saying, how is it helping anything to say that this (allegedly) multiple-offending criminal is "undocumented", vice "illegally here", and does what CNN does speak to you?

 

[MarAzul]

Go Brian!

 

[MarAzul]

Local estimates right here where I am is 20% illegals. 170,000 people in this town and that many are illegal.
Hot damn the Chevy's are draggin the streets too! Actually some pretty nicely done machines on the streets here. Kind a cool to watch.

 

[barfo]

Driver who hit Colts linebacker was an undocumented immigrant, police say
By Kimberly Hutcherson, CNN

Aside from the concept that anyone driving drunk in America today, especially 3x the limit, should be pretty harshly dealt with the first time it happens (get a damn uber!), I don't quite understand journalism rules on this. The article says: The byline says that "Police say (he's) undocumented"
I understand that CNN is generally lefty-leaning at this point, but when did "illegal" become "undocumented"? Like, he left his license in his other pants or something? Can they just editorialize a quote like that? (I mean, I guess the answer is "yes", b/c it happened, or there's a quote in someone's notes or something that says that)

I mean, even the WaPo says he was here illegally.

Note, I'm not using this to point out that we should snatch up every brown-skinned man in the ATL area and send them to a shithole country. I'm not even wondering how a twice-deported person with a DUI even gets to stay here after "multiple other misdemeanor criminal convictions and arrests in California and Indiana." I'm saying, how is it helping anything to say that this (allegedly) multiple-offending criminal is "undocumented", vice "illegally here", and does what CNN does speak to you?

Sounds like another conservative snowflake complaint about someone using the "wrong word" to describe a group of people.

Well, we have freedom in this country, mister, and we can use whatever words we want!

I didn't spend 4 years fighting my way up to the keg in college just to have PC police take my right to express myself away.

Or something like that.

barfo

 

[MARIS61]

Clearly he's NOT undocumented.

They've documented his 3 illegal entries and 2 legal deportations, and the small percentage of the many crimes he committed while here.

2 more dead men's blood on Jerry Brown and Nancy Pelosi's hands.

 

[MARIS61]

Sounds like another conservative snowflake complaint about someone using the "wrong word" to describe a group of people.

Well, we have freedom in this country, mister, and we can use whatever words we want!

I didn't spend 4 years fighting my way up to the keg in college just to have PC police take my right to express myself away.

Or something like that.

barfo

Yeah, haha.

I'll be sure to post a lame joke when someone in your family is murdered with assistance from the Dems.

 

[barfo]

Yeah, haha.

I'll be sure to post a lame joke when someone in your family is murdered with assistance from the Dems.

You do that.

barfo

 

[BrianFromWA]

Sounds like another conservative snowflake complaint about someone using the "wrong word" to describe a group of people.

Well, we have freedom in this country, mister, and we can use whatever words we want!

I didn't spend 4 years fighting my way up to the keg in college just to have PC police take my right to express myself away.

Or something like that.

barfo

I feel like your analogy is off. This is more like barfo saying "Obama broke the ceiling as the first black president" and FoxNews running a story headlined "Uppity N***er becomes President, barfo says". It's false, and false in order to editorialize. It seems they can editorialize if your name isn't attached. Or they can quote you with your name attached. But afaik, (which is kind of where the question came from) a newspaper can't "express itself" and then put your name on it.

-By Ben Golliver.

 

[barfo]

I feel like your analogy is off. This is more like barfo saying "Obama broke the ceiling as the first black president" and FoxNews running a story headlined "Uppity N***er becomes President, barfo says". It's false, and false in order to editorialize. It seems they can editorialize if your name isn't attached. Or they can quote you with your name attached. But afaik, (which is kind of where the question came from) a newspaper can't "express itself" and then put your name on it.

-By Ben Golliver.

I think I misunderstood your first post then. I didn't realize your objection was about misquoting. I don't think they misquoted, because they didn't quote the police.

I see that later in the article, they say

Detectives said Orrego-Savala is a citizen of Guatemala who is in the United States illegally

so I don't think calling him undocumented is some sort of attempt to twist the story. My guess is that the writer thinks of illegal and undocumented as synonyms.

barfo

 

[BrianFromWA]

I think I misunderstood your first post then. I didn't realize your objection was about misquoting. I don't think they misquoted, because they didn't quote the police.
I see that later in the article, they say Detectives said Orrego-Savala is a citizen of Guatemala who is in the United States illegally

c'mon man, I put in a "note" and everything...

so I don't think calling him undocumented is some sort of attempt to twist the story. My guess is that the writer thinks of illegal and undocumented as synonyms.
barfo

Then there's our disagreement, as I think the writer/editor making the byline is trying to twist the story to not have the term "illegal" on CNN's list of stories. Which, again, I understand, but the police didn't say "undocumented", as the byline says. The police (as you point out) said "illegal".

 

[barfo]

c'mon man, I put in a "note" and everything...

Then there's our disagreement, as I think the writer/editor making the byline is trying to twist the story to not have the term "illegal" on CNN's list of stories. Which, again, I understand, but the police didn't say "undocumented", as the byline says. The police (as you point out) said "illegal".

I think you mean headline, not byline.

We don't know (from the text of this story) what word the police used. They are not quoted. They are only paraphrased. They might have said illegal, they might have said undocumented, they might have said both, they might have said wetback or some other slur.

Undocumented and illegal are both used in the body of the story, neither usage is in quotes.

Edit: to me personally, the two words mean the same thing when applied to immigrants. So I suppose I'm naturally inclined to believe the writer had that view too. You asked when undocumented came to mean the same thing as illegal. I don't know the answer, but I've seen them used interchangeably for some time now.

2nd Edit: Reading the WaPo story now, I see that they quoted a police statement, which does use the word illegal. It is probably fair to assume that the CNN story was written based on the same statement, so - if they had quoted it, it would have been "illegal".

barfo

 

[BrianFromWA]

Edit: to me personally, the two words mean the same thing when applied to immigrants. So I suppose I'm naturally inclined to believe the writer had that view too. You asked when undocumented came to mean the same thing as illegal. I don't know the answer, but I've seen them used interchangeably for some time now. barfo

This is kind of what I was getting to, and if you've already (consciously or unconsciously) "made the connection" then it makes sense that you could see the author doing so as well. I think it's kind of insidious to minimize the illegality to make it sound as if you didn't have your registration in the car when you got pulled over or something (which, incidentally, can still get you a hefty fine and tow).
I know I'm in the minority on this one, maybe because I've seen up-close-and-personal what other countries' border policies are like, but violating the sovereignty of a nation by illegally crossing its borders, disrespecting the immigration process and those trying to do it the right way and squatting is more than just not carrying proof of insurance with you. And it opens up the illegal immigrant to a much harsher life, even if they're trying to do the right thing and get a good-paying job to send money back home or to escape a war-torn area, than going through the process.

 

[MarAzul]

Clearly he's NOT undocumented.

They've documented his 3 illegal entries and 2 legal deportations, and the small percentage of the many crimes he committed while here.

2 more dead men's blood on Jerry Brown and Nancy Pelosi's hands.

There is an age old term for a well documented criminal. has a Rap sheet as long as your arm!
Now a dude with a lengthy Rap sheet is not undocumented. Illegal criminal alien, perhaps, but certainly not undocumented.

 

[BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94]

I feel so sorry for the player and his family... killed by someone who shouldn't be here in the first place :/

 

[DaLincolnJones]

I don't think calling him undocumented is some sort of attempt to twist the story. My guess is that the writer thinks of illegal and undocumented as synonyms.

barfo

This kind of thinking is Orwellian at best.

Murdered and having passed away, may very well be the same as an end result, but can hardly be considered synonymous.

 

[Further]

Brian, I actually agree with you for the most part. I do believe strongly that the role of Journalists should be to tell the facts. That’s s very difficult task, because synonyms like illegal vs undocumented aren’t really synonyms all the time. However, as barfo pointed out, we don’t actually know what he police said. However, the story isn’t about what the police said, it’s about the facts of the case. And in discussing facts, I believe undocumented is the correct term as illegal speaks to the nature of being undocumented, not the name for that segment.

 

[barfo]

This kind of thinking is Orwellian at best.

Murdered and having passed away, may very well be the same as an end result, but can hardly be considered synonymous.

Murdered is a subset of the class of people who have passed away.

Undocumented is not a subset of the class of people who are here illegally - it is the full set. The only difference is in the word used - unless you have a different understanding of what undocumented immigrant means? If so, what is your definition of undocumented immigrant?

barfo

 

[MarAzul]

If so, what is your definition of undocumented immigrant?

How about no documents on file, city, county, state or federal, for this person.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

Okay, we will use the legal definitions as set by the judicial system.

Emigrant is someone that has moved to this country by legal means. Thus an undocumented emigrant would be one that has left home without their green card or identification proving eligibility to be in this country.

Someone here without going through a legal process, by law is classified as being an illegal alien.

 

[barfo]

Okay, we will use the legal definitions as set by the judicial system.

Emigrant is someone that has moved to this country by legal means. Thus an undocumented emigrant would be one that has left home without their green card or identification proving eligibility to be in this country.

Seems like that would be a very small set of people, but ok. That is a logical definition (except from the point of view of the US, they are immigrants not emigrants). But, I don't think yours is a very common definition.

Someone here without going through a legal process, by law is classified as being an illegal alien.

Isn't crossing the border without your paperwork illegal? I'm pretty sure it is. So your undocumented immigrants are also illegal immigrants.

barfo

 

[MarAzul]

Seems like that would be a very small set of people, but ok. That is a logical definition (except from the point of view of the US, they are immigrants not emigrants). But, I don't think yours is a very common definition.



Isn't crossing the border without your paperwork illegal? I'm pretty sure it is. So your undocumented immigrants are also illegal immigrants.

barfo

Naw barf!

You keep beating around the bush here.
We used illegal for ages, then the PC media folks switched to the less offensive undocumented label because it has a less pejorative sound. Even though it fails to describe the reality or even meet a logic test.

 

[barfo]

Naw barf!

You keep beating around the bush here.
We used illegal for ages, then the PC media folks switched to the less offensive undocumented label because it has a less pejorative sound. Even though it fails to describe the reality or even meet a logic test.

Yeah, language changes. We don't call handicapped people crippled anymore, but that doesn't mean anyone thinks they can get out of their wheelchairs and walk now that they aren't crippled anymore. You don't have to be such a PC snowflake about whether people use the words you approve of.

barfo

 

[PtldPlatypus]

The way I understand it, the issue many people have with the migration toward using "undocumented" vs "illegal" is that it seems to be an intentional avoidance of a word that casts a negative aspersion on the status. "Illegal" means against the law, and we innately understand illegal to be inherently bad. "Undocumented" simply connotes a lack of paperwork, and who can't relate to being in--or even being responsible for--a situation that was completely valid but lacked proper documentation?

 

[MarAzul]

"Undocumented" simply connotes a lack of paperwork

True!
It does indeed and is often misleading as hell! Thus the problem with the generic usage.

A criminal alien with a rap sheet including one or more deportations is not undocumented.

 

[Minstrel]

I'm a liberal, and I have no problem with "illegal," nor do I have a problem with "undocumented." I have neither a vested interest in stigmatizing them nor in validating their crossing the border as "not against the law," so the term is of little import to me.

I might posit that one reason that a lot of people have switched terms could have something to do with the term "illegal immigrant" defining people as "illegal" and people can't be illegal, only their actions. But that may be too hippie-liberal for some? "Hey, maaaan...people can't be illegal."

 

[MarAzul]

I'm a liberal, and I have no problem with "illegal," nor do I have a problem with "undocumented." I have neither a vested interest in stigmatizing them nor in validating their crossing the border as "not against the law," so the term is of little import to me.

I might posit that one reason that a lot of people have switched terms could have something to do with the term "illegal immigrant" defining people as "illegal" and people can't be illegal, only their actions. But that may be too hippie-liberal for some? "Hey, maaaan...people can't be illegal."

I suppose it depends on whether your intentions are to, communicate vs obfuscate the correct status of the person.

 

[Minstrel]

I suppose it depends on whether your intentions are to, communicate vs obfuscate the correct status of the person.

I don't think either term obfuscates their status--everyone understands what an "undocumented immigrant" is.

 

[MarAzul]

everyone understands what an "undocumented immigrant"

Perhaps this is true.
But when you use the term when it is untruthful, such as when the dude has a length rap sheet, you are obfuscating what the immigrant is as you did not communicate it.

 

[Minstrel]

But when you use the term when it is untruthful, such as when the dude has a length rap sheet

"Illegal immigrant" has nothing to do with "rap sheets." We don't call American citizens with long rap sheets "illegal citizens."

The term isn't untruthful. Illegal immigrants are undocumented. Which term you use depends on what aspect of their status matters more to you. But pretty much every adult in this country knows that the two terms refer to the same concept, so there's really no obfuscation going on.

 

[MarAzul]

so there's really no obfuscation going on