Vince Carter

[go nets]

I wouldnt consider him a superstar player anymore, hes not on the same level as guys like wade,kobe, lebron, kg, t-mac. He was at one point in his career but watching him play hes not even exciting to watch anymore, hes actually become a boring player. That 360 dunk the other day was an abbiration, i mean you would think that he would be one of the dunk leaders in the nba or at the very least on his own team! When i used to watch VC play before coming to jersey and even his first full year here his game was

Attack the basket first
Shoot second
Pass third

now its more like
Pass first
Shoot second
Attack third

hes gone in complete opposite direction of the player he used to be and its painful to watch especially knowing that hes not goin to get any better over the next 3 years while were stuck with him for big money too. In my book hes just been a dissapointment and obviously we werent goin to be a better team without him if we didnt sign him over the summer, but honestly how much worse could we be than we are now? and at least we would have alot of cap space to play with

what do you guys think?

 

[ToddMacCulloch11]

I don't know if there ever was a time I would have put him on the same level as those guys.

Was he an exciting player? Sure. I supposed you could say he was a superstar based on that, but he doesn't have that killer instict like Kobe, KG, and LeBron have

 

[shookem]

you are correct. VC sucks.

 

[go nets]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ToddMacCulloch11 @ Feb 15 2008, 02:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't know if there ever was a time I would have put him on the same level as those guys.

Was he an exciting player? Sure. I supposed you could say he was a superstar based on that, but he doesn't have that killer instict like Kobe, KG, and LeBron have</div>

VC was a consistent all-star starter and was always top 5 in voting, if im not mistaken he was the leading vote getter last year, and now he didnt even get picked as a reserve!!

that is a drastic change for a player, i would like to know what VC thinks about this

 

[NOMAM]

Ah yes, the periodic dump on Vince post. The Kidd trade stuff was just a temporary distraction but the dump on Vince fevah is back!

Carry on.

 

[Jizzy]

uhhh.. no, he shoots to much, rarely drives to the basket anymore, defense is worse and he sux at shooting

 

[Jizzy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Feb 15 2008, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ah yes, the periodic dump on Vince post. The Kidd trade stuff was just a temporary distraction but the dump on Vince fevah is back!

Carry on.</div>
vc has been horrific so far, ya homer. we wouldnt be looking to move him if not

 

[pegs]

If this Kidd trade happens, expect to see more of a passing Vince. Right now, he's the best playmaker on the team, and that's exactly what we'll need from him.

IMO he's turning into a role player now. Could be a good thing, could be a bad thing, depending on who else we have on the team.

Also, IMO, if we get Devin Harris, I believe it'll be a good thing to have a playmaker/shooter on the wings. Devin Harris likes penetration (haha), which will make it so Vince doesn't need to do it as much (seeing as he doesn't want to, anyways).

 

[NOMAM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Feb 15 2008, 02:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Feb 15 2008, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ah yes, the periodic dump on Vince post. The Kidd trade stuff was just a temporary distraction but the dump on Vince fevah is back!

Carry on.</div>
vc has been horrific so far, ya homer. we wouldnt be looking to move him if not
</div>

Vince hasn't been "horirfic" so far, ya schizophrenic douche. And they would trade anyone if the right deal came along.

 

[Jizzy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Feb 15 2008, 03:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Feb 15 2008, 02:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Feb 15 2008, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ah yes, the periodic dump on Vince post. The Kidd trade stuff was just a temporary distraction but the dump on Vince fevah is back!

Carry on.</div>
vc has been horrific so far, ya homer. we wouldnt be looking to move him if not
</div>

Vince hasn't been "horirfic" so far, ya schizophrenic douche. And they would trade anyone if the right deal came along.
</div>
how can you say he hasn't? what can possibly lead you to say he hasnt? his shooting percetnage sucks, rj is outscoring him etc..


homer

 

[NOMAM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Feb 15 2008, 03:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>how can you say he hasn't? what can possibly lead you to say he hasnt? his shooting percetnage sucks, rj is outscoring him etc..


homer</div>

Carter is shooting it at 44.5%, which is better than guys like Joe Johnson and Ray Allen and about the same as Paul Pierce. They must be having horrific seasons as well.

And while RJ has been scoring the ball well this season Carter still dishes the ball better.

 

[FOMW]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Feb 15 2008, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ah yes, the periodic dump on Vince post. The Kidd trade stuff was just a temporary distraction but the dump on Vince fevah is back!

Carry on.</div>

It really is tiresome, isn't it?

+/- (Roland) rating is probably the best, most fair statistic to compare the impact any one player has on the performance of his team. It's not perfect, but if you exclude players who play a relatively small number of minutes, it's very good. It's reliability is born out if you look at the +/- for the players on any team in the league, e.g.:


http://www.82games.com/0708/0708DAL.HTM for Dallas
http://www.82games.com/0708/0708PHO.HTM for Phoenix
http://www.82games.com/0708/0708TOR.HTM for Toronto

Here are the ratings for the Nets through 2/12/08:

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708NJN.HTM

Only 4 Nets with significant playing time have a net positive impact: Boone, Jefferson, Kidd, and Carter. Guess who's first? Carter with a net 10.7 positive impact. Kidd is second at 7.3, well over 3 points lower (Jefferson and Boone are 3.3 and 3.2 respectively). So in a season where he's frequently been playing on one leg when he should have been sitting out healing, in a season where he's trying earnestly to adjust his shot selection and offensive instincts to suit his coach and teammates, in a system altered this year to get Jefferson much more involved as a scorer, and in a season where the "leader" has quit on the team and helped to destroy morale, Carter is still the player that easily has the most positive impact on the court. Yet he's the dog, he's the wuss, he's the problem. Right.

Vince has sucked (comparatively) this season. But what does that say about how much more his teammates have sucked?

 

[Jizzy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Feb 15 2008, 03:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Feb 15 2008, 03:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>how can you say he hasn't? what can possibly lead you to say he hasnt? his shooting percetnage sucks, rj is outscoring him etc..


homer</div>

Carter is shooting it at 44.5%, which is better than guys like Joe Johnson and Ray Allen and about the same as Paul Pierce. They must be having horrific seasons as well.

And while RJ has been scoring the ball well this season Carter still dishes the ball better.
</div>
actually, ray and joe are having down years and pierce is shooting a tad higher then vc.

of course vince dishes the ball well, thats about all he has left.

 

[NJNetz]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>If this Kidd trade happens, expect to see more of a passing Vince. Right now, he's the best playmaker on the team, and that's exactly what we'll need from him.</div>

No, we'll need from him what we needed all season, scoring. He can pass the ball once in a while.

I<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>MO he's turning into a role player now. Could be a good thing, could be a bad thing, depending on who else we have on the team.</div>

I agree. He has the skills of a star but a mindset of a role player.

 

[NOMAM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Feb 15 2008, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>actually, ray and joe are having down years and pierce is shooting a tad higher then vc.

of course vince dishes the ball well, thats about all he has left.</div>


Uh? So that means you think guys like Allen, Johnson and Pierce are having horrific years as well? And Carter is a good scorer, rebounder, and playmaker.

 

[ToddMacCulloch11]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (go nets @ Feb 15 2008, 02:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ToddMacCulloch11 @ Feb 15 2008, 02:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't know if there ever was a time I would have put him on the same level as those guys.

Was he an exciting player? Sure. I supposed you could say he was a superstar based on that, but he doesn't have that killer instict like Kobe, KG, and LeBron have</div>

VC was a consistent all-star starter and was always top 5 in voting, if im not mistaken he was the leading vote getter last year, and now he didnt even get picked as a reserve!!

that is a drastic change for a player, i would like to know what VC thinks about this
</div>

Starting in the allstar game is about who is the most popular, not who is the best. If it wasn't for the fan vote, would he have made it all those years?

 

[Jizzy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Feb 15 2008, 03:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Feb 15 2008, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>actually, ray and joe are having down years and pierce is shooting a tad higher then vc.

of course vince dishes the ball well, thats about all he has left.</div>


Uh? So that means you think guys like Allen, Johnson and Pierce are having horrific years as well? And Carter is a good scorer, rebounder, and playmaker.
</div>
why is it all about stats with you defending VC? any sane person can see he's as inconsistent as boki and gets paid 3 times as much. this has nothing to do with ray allen or joe johnson

 

[NOMAM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Feb 15 2008, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>why is it all about stats with you defending VC? any sane person can see he's as inconsistent as boki and gets paid 3 times as much. this has nothing to do with ray allen or joe johnson</div>

What the hell? YOU are the one who first started using stats to describe what a "horrific" season Carter was having. And Carter, along with Jefferson, have really been the only reliable scorers on this team. Also with Marcus injured for most of the season, he has been the 2nd best facilitator. He has played hurt and despite it has played well -- not great -- but well. Still can't come up with an answer about guys like Allen, Johnson and Pierce who are comparable to Carter, eh?

 

[Jizzy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Feb 15 2008, 04:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Feb 15 2008, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>why is it all about stats with you defending VC? any sane person can see he's as inconsistent as boki and gets paid 3 times as much. this has nothing to do with ray allen or joe johnson</div>

What the hell? YOU are the one who first started using stats to describe what a "horrific" season Carter was having. And Carter, along with Jefferson, have really been the only reliable scorers on this team. Also with Marcus injured for most of the season, he has been the 2nd best facilitator. He has played hurt and despite it has played well -- not great -- but well. Still can't come up with an answer about guys like Allen, Johnson and Pierce who are comparable to Carter, eh?
</div>
thats it right there, i said vince was having a horrific season then you came up with the ray allen, joe johnson BS. then you mentioned the stats and such. honestly, you can judge him by his stats, people who've never seen him can look at his stats that he averages 20/5/5 but thats not the case, one game you'll see him dominate and then next he'll put up a 5-16 in a blowout but of course, its about the stats, right?

 

[pegs]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Feb 15 2008, 04:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Feb 15 2008, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>why is it all about stats with you defending VC? any sane person can see he's as inconsistent as boki and gets paid 3 times as much. this has nothing to do with ray allen or joe johnson</div>

What the hell? YOU are the one who first started using stats to describe what a "horrific" season Carter was having. And Carter, along with Jefferson, have really been the only reliable scorers on this team. Also with Marcus injured for most of the season, he has been the 2nd best facilitator. He has played hurt and despite it has played well -- not great -- but well. Still can't come up with an answer about guys like Allen, Johnson and Pierce who are comparable to Carter, eh?

</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Feb 15 2008, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>uhhh.. no, he shoots to much, rarely drives to the basket anymore, defense is worse and he sux at shooting</div>

He didn't just used stats, he used his observations of VC as well (which I agree with, for the most part).

Allen's older, and also doesn't have to do as much with Pierce and Garnett on his team. Pierce has really stepped his game up, and is undoubtedly playing way better than Carter, with or without the other 2 all-stars. Johnson has taken a step back this season, and isn't even all-star worthy IMO.

Actually, I'd be interested in what you'd have to say in response to Jizzy's 1st post (above).

 

[NOMAM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Feb 15 2008, 04:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>thats it right there, i said vince was having a horrific season then you came up with the ray allen, joe johnson BS. then you mentioned the stats and such. honestly, you can judge him by his stats, people who've never seen him can look at his stats that he averages 20/5/5 but thats not the case, one game you'll see him dominate and then next he'll put up a 5-16 in a blowout but of course, its about the stats, right?</div>

No, you first said he is having a horrific season and then I responded by saying he is not. YOU then followed it up with this:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>how can you say he hasn't? what can possibly lead you to say he hasnt? his shooting percetnage sucks, rj is outscoring him etc..</div>

And I responded again by saying his shooting % doesn't suck and it is better than or comparable to other star swingmen in the league. Then you started crying about why I'm bringing them up in the conversation because you can't answer the question I asked and are now just confused what even took place in this conversation.

 

[Jizzy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Feb 15 2008, 05:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Feb 15 2008, 04:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>thats it right there, i said vince was having a horrific season then you came up with the ray allen, joe johnson BS. then you mentioned the stats and such. honestly, you can judge him by his stats, people who've never seen him can look at his stats that he averages 20/5/5 but thats not the case, one game you'll see him dominate and then next he'll put up a 5-16 in a blowout but of course, its about the stats, right?</div>

No, you first said he is having a horrific season and then I responded by saying he is not. YOU then followed it up with this:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>how can you say he hasn't? what can possibly lead you to say he hasnt? his shooting percetnage sucks, rj is outscoring him etc..</div>

And I responded again by saying his shooting % doesn't suck and it is better than or comparable to other star swingmen in the league. Then you started crying about why I'm bringing them up in the conversation because you can't answer the question I asked and are now just confused what even took place in this conversation.
</div>
why bring up ray allen and joe johnson? answer this, would you rather have ray allen or JJ over vc right now?

 

[cpawfan]

Vince is Vince
Vince is also injured
Vince doesn't have much trade value at the moment
The Nets are a poorly constructed and mediocre team

Shut Vince down and go for lottery position

 

[NOMAM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Feb 15 2008, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Feb 15 2008, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>uhhh.. no, he shoots to much, rarely drives to the basket anymore, defense is worse and he sux at shooting</div>



Actually, I'd be interested in what you'd have to say in response to Jizzy's 1st post (above).
</div>

Ok, Carter shoots too much? He is taking 3 less shots this season than last, which is part of the reason his PPG are down. He drives less to the basket compared to other years, partly because of injury but he has still been effective on the offensive end scoring the ball and setting up team mates. The defense is a team wide issue, not just Vince and I already addressed his shooting %.

Really, if the Nets played good team defense, the bench was more productive, and they did a few other little things, their record would be much different right now and there wouldn't be any complaints about the way Vince has played this season. Just look at Boston, they play dominating team defense where they're like #1 in every defensive category and get bench production and guys like Allen and Pierce make the All-Star team even though they are around the same caliber as Vince.

 

[Jizzy]

or play vince and get better lottery position

 

[NOMAM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Feb 15 2008, 05:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>why bring up ray allen and joe johnson? answer this, would you rather have ray allen or JJ over vc right now?</div>

If you can't follow this conversation properly, I'm just going to stop responding to you. One last time, YOU first brought up Vinces shooting and scoring and started whining about how he is having such a "horrific" season. I then pointed out he's shooting the ball better than guys like Johnson and Allen and then asked if they were also having "horrific" seasons which you can't answer. So to return the favor, I wont' answer your question. And really, I probably wasted enough time responding to you and your senseless posts.

 

[GMJ]

Vince was bad.

Vince was injured.

Vince has been playing better; he's probably healing.

 

[guitarzan]

It just makes me sad watching him play like this. Man the season he was traded here he was by far the best player in the leaugue after the trade. he could not be stopped. I've watched every game of his career and that was the most dominating he had ever been. He was getting 30+ every night practically. It drives me crazy to think he can't be that same guy again. Just sad. He will unfortunately always be the ultimate what could have been player. If he just had Kobe's fire from the start he could have been even better because in all my years I've never seen a more effortless ore athleticaly gifted player. He could have done it all.

 

[guitarzan]

Its gonna be weird watching the ASG and Vince won't be there. Normally I'd be busy getting upset about his playing time LOL!!!

 

[J-HoAgZ]

Vince is still an exciting player. Is he as exciting as he used to be? No, but that doesn't mean we should trade him for Jermaine O'Neil who has lost way more than a step. Some of you guys don't understand how hard it is to do some of the stuff Vince does. Like I'm 6'4 32"vert and I can just dunk. I can't do any tricks or anything. Vince is like 6'6 and his vert is still incredable considering he did a 360 on an injured ankle and he bearly even tried. Give him time.. he'll be back..