We're worse than we look

[Rastapopoulos]

I was looking at some team stats for the past ten games, and, since I'm a Portland fan and not a Spurs fan, it made for some depressing reading.
FG% differential: Third from bottom (above only the Lakers and Philly)
Defensive FG%: Fourth from bottom (throw in Washington)
Personal fouls: Fifth most
18th in team assists - this is particularly bad because we start two "PGs" and Stotts preaches motion
Team steals: tied for last (so we're fouling a lot rather than getting steals)
Team turnover differential: DEAD LAST (again, as an undersized team, shouldn't we be trying to force turnovers?)
Team turnovers: 4th most
Blocked shots: DEAD LAST

Ugly. And the worst part is: we're not even losing all the games, so we can't even tank right.

Also annoying: the kind of player we need most is a shotblocking defensive big man - and there aren't any in the draft.

 

[Blazinaway]

I was looking at some team stats for the past ten games, and, since I'm a Portland fan and not a Spurs fan, it made for some depressing reading.
FG% differential: Third from bottom (above only the Lakers and Philly)
Defensive FG%: Fourth from bottom (throw in Washington)
Personal fouls: Fifth most
18th in team assists - this is particularly bad because we start two "PGs" and Stotts preaches motion
Team steals: tied for last (so we're fouling a lot rather than getting steals)
Team turnover differential: DEAD LAST (again, as an undersized team, shouldn't we be trying to force turnovers?)
Team turnovers: 4th most
Blocked shots: DEAD LAST

Ugly. And the worst part is: we're not even losing all the games, so we can't even tank right.

Also annoying: the kind of player we need most is a shotblocking defensive big man - and there aren't any in the draft.

Hassan Whiteside would fit that C requirement nicely, and since we are likely headed for a top 5 pick it would seem we will ultimately "fit" those poor stats you listed

 

[Reep]

Also annoying: the kind of player we need most is a shotblocking defensive big man - and there aren't any in the draft.

Poeltl? 10 reb and 2.2 blocks in 28 minutes isn't bad. Skal is getting 2.1 blocks in 21 minutes. We are certain to get one of those if we don't luck out on Simmons (1.4 blocks too).

I agree we aren't tanking correctly though.

 

[blue9]

Also annoying: the kind of player we need most is a shotblocking defensive big man - and there aren't any in the draft.

I think the thing we need the most is a big scoring wing.

 

[Schilly]

I think the records across the league are starting to level out in that beeter teams are starting seperate themselves and worse teams are starting to fade more. We can expect some changes though I don't expect Portland to start playing better than they have been. If the draft were today (no Lotto) we would have the 5th pick. I can see New Orleans moving up past us as they sort things out and it wouldn't take but a couple games for Brooklyn to pass us as well. I think the Blazers could be a slow as the 3rd worst team in the league but no higher than the 7th worst.

 

[Natebishop3]

This team has too much talent to be at the bottom. Some of the worst teams last year won 16, 18, 20 games. That's not going to be us. My prediction was 32 wins, and I'm sticking with that. We actually have quite a bit of depth, and teams like Philly (1 win), Brooklyn (8 wins), and LA (5 wins), don't have a player on the same level as Dame, or even CJ for that matter.

New Orleans is a joke though. They have no excuse. Anthony Davis is a really good player, but he's clearly not good enough to elevate that shitty organization.

 

[blue9]

New Orleans is a joke though. They have no excuse. Anthony Davis is a really good player, but he's clearly not good enough to elevate that shitty organization.

Just another piece of evidence to support the idea that you don't build around a PF (unless he also happens to be one of the best to ever play the game, regardless of position).

 

[Natebishop3]

Just another piece of evidence to support the idea that you don't build around a PF (unless he also happens to be one of the best to ever play the game, regardless of position).

You can, but he has to be a really good offensive weapon, like Garnett, Malone, Duncan, or Dirk.

Davis isn't really on the same level as those guys, at least not in terms of overall offensive ability.

 

[PCmor7]

This team has too much talent to be at the bottom. Some of the worst teams last year won 16, 18, 20 games. That's not going to be us. My prediction was 32 wins, and I'm sticking with that. We actually have quite a bit of depth, and teams like Philly (1 win), Brooklyn (8 wins), and LA (5 wins), don't have a player on the same level as Dame, or even CJ for that matter.

New Orleans is a joke though. They have no excuse. Anthony Davis is a really good player, but he's clearly not good enough to elevate that shitty organization.

It's not a question of talent as much as the composition of the talent. There isn't a third scorer that you really can count on, and our two bread-and-butter scorers get their points in the same way. We don't have a post scoring option. We don't have a team that gets to the line enough, and our bigs, while they each bring something rather unique to the table, are undersized and get abused by true centers. We don't get a lot of transition points. We are young throughout the roster who are learning by making mistakes, and, when you don't have proven scorers or get enough free throws or easy layups, that's the difference in a close game.

As for New Orleans, they have enough talent and have it spread in such a manner that their struggles really confound me. But I think that talent is enough to get them going at some point so that they pass the Blazers in the standings. Which is fine with me. I think there are a couple of elite-level talents in this draft and I think when you might be able to go seven deep in players who become multi-year all-stars. After around 8-10, though, there's a pretty considerable drop off ... although I think guys like Sabonis or the Hammons kid at Purdue will become solid contributors on good teams from the latter part of the first round if they get into the right system.

 

[Natebishop3]

It's not a question of talent as much as the composition of the talent. There isn't a third scorer that you really can count on, and our two bread-and-butter scorers get their points in the same way. We don't have a post scoring option. We don't have a team that gets to the line enough, and our bigs, while they each bring something rather unique to the table, are undersized and get abused by true centers. We don't get a lot of transition points. We are young throughout the roster who are learning by making mistakes, and, when you don't have proven scorers or get enough free throws or easy layups, that's the difference in a close game.

As for New Orleans, they have enough talent and have it spread in such a manner that their struggles really confound me. But I think that talent is enough to get them going at some point so that they pass the Blazers in the standings. Which is fine with me. I think there are a couple of elite-level talents in this draft and I think when you might be able to go seven deep in players who become multi-year all-stars. After around 8-10, though, there's a pretty considerable drop off ... although I think guys like Sabonis or the Hammons kid at Purdue will become solid contributors on good teams from the latter part of the first round if they get into the right system.

The thing about depth though, is that it allows you to have an off night. We're getting close to 30 points off our bench every night. That's so much better than our bench from a few years ago. We have guys like Crabbe and Harkless and Davis, who can score and contribute. I agree that it's not enough to make us a good team, but it's enough to keep us around 30 wins.

 

[PCmor7]

The thing about depth though, is that it allows you to have an off night. We're getting close to 30 points off our bench every night. That's so much better than our bench from a few years ago. We have guys like Crabbe and Harkless and Davis, who can score and contribute. I agree that it's not enough to make us a good team, but it's enough to keep us around 30 wins.

Yes, but wouldn't you agree that part of that is because we don't have the offensive threats on the first unit and that there isn't much separating the guys you mentioned from our last three starters so that they actually get more minutes and by default get more scoring opportunities? Don't get me wrong, I am with you in liking this bench. I just think the 30-point-per-game figure is a little inflated by circumstances. Crabbe and Davis aren't guys that create their own shots; they score more off of moving without the ball and teammates or rebounds finding them. I wish Harkless could return to the form he showed in the first couple of weeks; I think he could be a steal in the long term.

 

[blue9]

You can, but he has to be a really good offensive weapon, like Garnett, Malone, Duncan, or Dirk.

Davis isn't really on the same level as those guys, at least not in terms of overall offensive ability.

Garnett did nothing until he was a tertiary player on BOS.
Malone never won (but at least competed in the Finals), and played with one of the best PGs ever - so he wasn't really the centerpiece of the Jazz, but rather part of a Dynamic Duo lead by Stockton.
Duncan is one of the best to ever play the game, regardless of position.
Dirk - a HOFer - got lucky once in 18 years and is the sole outlier.

 

[Natebishop3]

Garnett did nothing until he was a tertiary player on BOS.

What.... what exactly is your definition of "nothing?"

The Wolves went to the WCF with KG. Garnett is easily a HOFer and he was one of the best players in the game while he was in Minnesota.

 

[Orion Bailey]

What.... what exactly is your definition of "nothing?"

The Wolves went to the WCF with KG. Garnett is easily a HOFer and he was one of the best players in the game while he was in Minnesota.

I think the question was though, can you win building around a PF, and Minn didnt win, so...

 

[Natebishop3]

I think the question was though, can you win building around a PF, and Minn didnt win, so...

In the NBA, you win by building around superstars. The Wolves didn't win because they were going against the Lakers with Payton, Kobe, Malone, and Shaq. The Jazz didn't win because they were going against Jordan/Pippen/Rodman. It's not about the position. It's about the overall talent. Duncan has been the centerpiece of how many championships? Garnett was the centerpiece in Boston. Dirk was the centerpiece in Dallas, and you could make the argument that LeBron was the power forward in Miami.

The last 10 Champions

GS - Curry (PG)
SAS - Duncan (PF)
MIA - LeBron (PF)
MIA - LeBron (PF)
DAL - Dirk (PF)
LAL - Kobe (SG)
LAL - Kobe (SG)
BOS - KG (PF)
SAS - Duncan (PF)
MIA - Wade (SG)

I mean, even if you don't count LeBron, the fact that Duncan, KG, and Dirk were all the best players on their team, and won championships, I think that disproves the hypothesis.

 

[riverman]

I think the question was though, can you win building around a PF, and Minn didnt win, so...

Tim Duncan comes to mind

 

[Orion Bailey]

Tim Duncan comes to mind

He was mentioned as the sole anomaly.

 

[Natebishop3]

He was mentioned as the sole anomaly.

But Dirk won a championship.... and so did KG.

 

[Orion Bailey]

In the NBA, you win by building around superstars. The Wolves didn't win because they were going against the Lakers with Payton, Kobe, Malone, and Shaq. The Jazz didn't win because they were going against Jordan/Pippen/Rodman. It's not about the position. It's about the overall talent. Duncan has been the centerpiece of how many championships? Garnett was the centerpiece in Boston. Dirk was the centerpiece in Dallas, and you could make the argument that LeBron was the power forward in Miami.

The last 10 Champions

GS - Curry (PG)
SAS - Duncan (PF)
MIA - LeBron (PF)
MIA - LeBron (PF)
DAL - Dirk (PF)
LAL - Kobe (SG)
LAL - Kobe (SG)
BOS - KG (PF)
SAS - Duncan (PF)
MIA - Wade (SG)

I mean, even if you don't count LeBron, the fact that Duncan, KG, and Dirk were all the best players on their team, and won championships, I think that disproves the hypothesis.

I am not necessarily in agreement that you cant build around a PF, just pointing a few things out. Lebron was the small forward though. He had Bosch at C and Haslem at PF I thought?
I would also say that Pierce was as big a cornerstone as Garnett.

 

[Orion Bailey]

But Dirk won a championship.... and so did KG.

Sorry, I meant Dirk as a sole anomaly. Both Garnett needed two other all stars next to them to win and Duncan is the best ever at his position.

Again, Im not in disagreement, just pointing a few things out. Honestly, as much as the NBA has changed, I still think the best position to build around is a beast of a center like Drummon, Whiteside, Boogie, ETC. Then would be shooting Guard.

 

[Natebishop3]

Sorry, I meant Dirk as a sole anomaly. Both Garnett needed two other all stars next to them to win and Duncan is the best ever at his position.

Again, Im not in disagreement, just pointing a few things out. Honestly, as much as the NBA has changed, I still think the best position to build around is a beast of a center like Drummon, Whiteside, Boogie, ETC. Then would be shooting Guard.

The point wasn't that there was only one star, but that the power forward was the centerpiece (IE building around a power forward.)

Dirk and Duncan were absolutely the centerpiece of their teams. Garnett was the centerpiece and the heart and soul of that Celtics team, even though Pierce was there first.

LeBron played multiple positions, but I'm pretty sure that last championship had him at power forward with Bosh at center.

 

[riverman]

I'd add Sheed to the list...when he went to Detroit, he was the difference maker in that championship team

 

[Orion Bailey]

The point wasn't that there was only one star, but that the power forward was the centerpiece (IE building around a power forward.)

Dirk and Duncan were absolutely the centerpiece of their teams. Garnett was the centerpiece and the heart and soul of that Celtics team, even though Pierce was there first.

LeBron played multiple positions, but I'm pretty sure that last championship had him at power forward with Bosh at center.

Maybe those that think you cant win with a PF as the cornerstone are still hurting from LMA.

In reality, I think alot more of it lands in HOW you build around the cornerstone, rather than WHO you build around.

 

[Natebishop3]

Maybe those that think you cant win with a PF as the cornerstone are still hurting from LMA.

In reality, I think alot more of it lands in HOW you build around the cornerstone, rather than WHO you build around.

Yup. It took Dallas a while to put the right combination of players around Dirk. San Antonio has been REALLY good at putting the right players around Duncan. I think it's clear that you generally need one of the top five players in the league though. What was the last team to win a championship without a transcendent player on their roster? I guess San Antonio because Duncan wouldn't really be considered top 5 anymore, but he's a HOFer so it evens it out.

 

[Eastoff]

In all seriousness, is there any chance we could get Anthony Davis from an imploding nop?

 

[Orion Bailey]

In all seriousness, is there any chance we could get Anthony Davis from an imploding nop?

I think its possible, but if they are smart, they dump everyone else and start again with him.

 

[blue9]

I mean, even if you don't count LeBron, the fact that Duncan, KG, and Dirk were all the best players on their team, and won championships, I think that disproves the hypothesis.

KG was not the best on BOS - that was Pierce's team and KG was a super ancillary player similar to (but better than) Bosh in MIA. When KG had his own team he only made it out of the first round once - and he's a HOFer!
Duncan is the best PF to ever play, and one of the best regardless of position...and for the last handful of years he's been an ancillary player, not the centerpiece. Dirk got lucky once in 18 years. And those are the only two guys who have even COMPETED for a championship while being the center of their respective teams. PFs are ancillary players, not cornerstones.

 

[Orion Bailey]

KG was not the best on BOS - that was Pierce's team and KG was a super ancillary player similar to (but better than) Bosh in MIA. When KG had his own team he only made it out of the first round once - and he's a HOFer!
Duncan is the best PF to ever play, and one of the best regardless of position...and for the last handful of years he's been an ancillary player, not the centerpiece. Dirk got lucky once in 18 years. And those are the only two guys who have even COMPETED for a championship while being the center of their respective teams. PFs are ancillary players, not cornerstones.

Miami. I looked it up. LBJ was indeed the PF on thier wins with Bosch and Wade. and LBJ was absolutely the cornerstone, but then that was a "superteam" basically.

 

[blue9]

If the argument is "LBJ" that's not a very good argument. He's been the best AND most dominant player in the game. He could play PG or C. The fact that he played PF in MIA is not evidence that building around PFs is a good idea. Take a look at all of the best PFs to play in the past 30 years and there are only two who have won a Championship as the cornerstone - Duncan, who is the best PF ever and probably Top 5 regardless of position, and Dirk who is another HOFer who got lucky once in 18 years.

All of the other great PFs either never made it to the Finals, or if they did it was because they were paired with one of the best PGs to ever play the game.

 

[Orion Bailey]

If the argument is "LBJ" that's not a very good argument. He's been the best AND most dominant player in the game. He could play PG or C. The fact that he played PF in MIA is not evidence that building around PFs is a good idea. Take a look at all of the best PFs to play in the past 30 years and there are only two who have won a Championship as the cornerstone - Duncan, who is the best PF ever and probably Top 5 regardless of position, and Dirk who is another HOFer who got lucky once in 18 years.

All of the other great PFs either never made it to the Finals, or if they did it was because they were paired with one of the best PGs to ever play the game.

There is no arguement really. I still think its more of how you build around than who you build around.