We've reached the tipping point

[maxiep]

Bad news

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2011/05/senate-51-of-households.html

That means a majority of households now can vote to tax other people to receive their benefits. For those of us who believe in a bare bones social safety net, we have to change the debate from the traditional "bring home the bacon" mode of getting elected to something different.

I think the new argument has to be about freedom from government intrusion in our daily lives, an increased chance for individual prosperity rather than simple wealth redistribution and more opportunity for future generations. Regardless of what the argument becomes, we have to change the way we think about the role of government if we wish to prevail.

 

[MrJayremmie]

I think the new argument has to be about freedom from government intrusion in our daily lives

I agree with this. That is why I'm for fair taxes, limited social safety nets, legalizing some drugs, pro-choice, and pro-gay marriage. Keep the government out of our personal lives.

Agree, Maxiep?

Thing is, you may agree, which makes you more Libertarian. I know many tea partiers who keep saying keep the gov't out of our lives, yet want government intrusion in things such as marriage, women's rights and personal choices. Seems that people are anti-government unless it agrees with their views.

As many Libertarians say, Liberals like government out of their social lives, but prominent in their economics. Conservatives want government in their social lives, but to stay out of the economy.

 

[maxiep]

I agree with this. That is why I'm for fair taxes, limited social safety nets, legalizing some drugs, pro-choice, and pro-gay marriage. Keep the government out of our personal lives.

Agree, Maxiep?

Thing is, you may agree, which makes you more Libertarian. I know many tea partiers who keep saying keep the gov't out of our lives, yet want government intrusion in things such as marriage, women's rights and personal choices. Seems that people are anti-government unless it agrees with their views.

As many Libertarians say, Liberals like government out of their social lives, but prominent in their economics. Conservatives want government in their social lives, but to stay out of the economy.

Wow, you really don't understand the Tea Party.

 

[blazerboy30]

Wow, you really don't understand the Tea Party.

+1. I was thinking the exact same thing.

 

[bluefrog]

Bad news
That means a majority of households now can vote to tax other people to receive their benefits.

Interesting conclusion. I don't think voting rights are related to how much you pay or don't pay into taxes.

I thought you would be happy that less people are paying taxes, that means more money for the market, right?

 

[maxiep]

Interesting conclusion. I don't think voting rights are related to how much you pay or don't pay into taxes.

I thought you would be happy that less people are paying taxes, that means more money for the market, right?

I want a smaller, more efficient government that does less and doesn't carry debt accomplish its goals. I am willing to pay more tax to ensure that outcome in the short term.

I have no problem with paying taxes. I want everyone to pay at least a little, however. After all, I'm told we're all in this together.

When you end up with more people not playing taxes than people who do, you end up with a majority that can force a minority to pay for the majority's consumption.

 

[Minstrel]

When you end up with more people not playing taxes than people who do, you end up with a majority that can force a minority to pay for the majority's consumption.

Only in a situation where the vote is the sole source of power and that the minority (which happens to be the wealthiest) can't wield even greater influence on government by the use of their money. I don't think that's the situation that the US is in. Voters can elect representatives, but wealthy donors can influence what policy those elected representatives pass.

 

[PapaG]

I agree with this. That is why I'm for fair taxes, limited social safety nets, legalizing some drugs, pro-choice, and pro-gay marriage. Keep the government out of our personal lives.

Agree, Maxiep?

Thing is, you may agree, which makes you more Libertarian. I know many tea partiers who keep saying keep the gov't out of our lives, yet want government intrusion in things such as marriage, women's rights and personal choices. Seems that people are anti-government unless it agrees with their views.

As many Libertarians say, Liberals like government out of their social lives, but prominent in their economics. Conservatives want government in their social lives, but to stay out of the economy.

You sound like a great candidate for the Tea Party.

 

[maxiep]

You sound like a great candidate for the Tea Party.

Exactly. He's a Tea Partier and he doesn't even know it.

 

[PapaG]

Exactly. He's a Tea Partier and he doesn't even know it.

The Dems try to tie conservative right-wing social moralists to the Tea Party, yet the limited exposure I've had with people who identify with the "Tea Party", at least in Oregon, are more Constitutionalist/Libertarian in their leanings.

 

[maxiep]

The Dems try to tie conservative right-wing social moralists to the Tea Party, yet the limited exposure I've had with people who identify with the "Tea Party", at least in Oregon, are more Constitutionalist/Libertarian in their leanings.

I'd invite anyone who believes the government has just gotten too big to attend a Tea Party event. They're a bunch of squares, but the vast majority are good, honest, decent people who just think we could use a little less government in our lives. There are some socially conservative folks there too, but that's not the emphasis. There are just as many pro-choice people in the Tea Party in my experience, they just don't believe in the federal funding of Planned Parenthood.

 

[barfo]

Only in a situation where the vote is the sole source of power and that the minority (which happens to be the wealthiest) can't wield even greater influence on government by the use of their money. I don't think that's the situation that the US is in. Voters can elect representatives, but wealthy donors can influence what policy those elected representatives pass.

Yes, and also, people on the lower end of the payscale don't vote solely for their own pocketbook. Why exactly that is is debatable, but it is a fact that they don't.

barfo

 

[blazerboy30]

Yes, and also, people on the lower end of the payscale don't vote solely for their own pocketbook. Why exactly that is is debatable, but it is a fact that they don't.

barfo

Do the people on the upper end of the payscale vote soley for their own pocketbook?

 

[barfo]

Do the people on the upper end of the payscale vote soley for their own pocketbook?

Does it matter to this discussion? Seems pretty irrelevant, that's why I didn't mention it. But since you asked: no.

barfo

 

[MrJayremmie]

Wow, you really don't understand the Tea Party.

First off, let me put in a little LOL for the fact that all three of BlazerBoy, PapaG, and Maxiep called me out when insulting the right.

2nd off, you have got to be kidding me. Are you saying that the tea party is libertarian? They are HARDLY socially liberal. They are far more traditional, aka conservative.

 

[blazerboy30]

First off, let me put in a little LOL for the fact that all three of BlazerBoy, PapaG, and Maxiep called me out when insulting the right.

You weren't insulting the right. You were just spouting off about something you clearly don't know anything about. If you want to spout off, at least be intelligent about it, and you won't get called out.

 

[maxiep]

First off, let me put in a little LOL for the fact that all three of BlazerBoy, PapaG, and Maxiep called me out when insulting the right.

2nd off, you have got to be kidding me. Are you saying that the tea party is libertarian? They are HARDLY socially liberal. They are far more traditional, aka conservative.

And you know this, how?

 

[MrJayremmie]

For example...

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1903/tea-party-movement-religion-social-issues-conservative-christian

In addition to adopting a conservative approach to the economy, Tea Party supporters also tend to take socially conservative positions on abortion and same-sex marriage. While registered voters as a whole are closely divided on same-sex marriage (42% in favor, 49% opposed), Tea Party supporters oppose it by more than two-to-one (64% opposed, 26% in favor). Similarly, almost six-in-ten (59%) of those who agree with the Tea Party say abortion should be illegal in all or most cases, 17 percentage points higher than among all registered voters. Tea Party supporters closely resemble Republican voters as a whole on these issues.

There is plenty of evidence out there. G-O-O-G-L-E

 

[MrJayremmie]

You weren't insulting the right. You were just spouting off about something you clearly don't know anything about.

Yes, clearly the tea party is socially liberal.

 

[Pokemanzdood]

[video=youtube;3cLxQ4B23_g]
Did someone say tea party?

 

[maxiep]

For example...

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1903/tea-party-movement-religion-social-issues-conservative-christian



There is plenty of evidence out there. G-O-O-G-L-E

Here's where you go wrong. It's not a matter of what Tea Partiers believe, it's why they've gathered in the Tea Party instead of the Republican Party. They may be socially conservative, but it's not as important to them as limiting government. For example, you would identify me as a rabid Blazer fan, but that doesn't mean leglislating against the L*kers is a priority for me.

There is plenty of room for social conservatives in the Republican Party. The thrust of the Tea Party is the size and scale of government and that's why people who may have socially conservative viewpoints choose it instead of the Republican Party.

 

[Minstrel]

Here's where you go wrong. It's not a matter of what Tea Partiers believe, it's why they've gathered in the Tea Party instead of the Republican Party. They may be socially conservative, but it's not as important to them as limiting government. For example, you would identify me as a rabid Blazer fan, but that doesn't mean leglislating against the L*kers is a priority for me.

There is plenty of room for social conservatives in the Republican Party. The thrust of the Tea Party is the size and scale of government and that's why people who may have socially conservative viewpoints choose it instead of the Republican Party.

If what you're saying is that social conservatism is not a plank of the Tea Party, but most supporters of the Tea Party are socially conservative, I'd agree with that. But that still makes those who are both hypocritical. They're aligning themselves with a party that stands for less government intrusion, yet personally believe in more government intrusion in the social sphere. That doesn't make the Tea Party platform hypocritical, but many of its supporters are.

 

[blazerboy30]

If what you're saying is that social conservatism is not a plank of the Tea Party, but most supporters of the Tea Party are socially conservative, I'd agree with that. But that still makes those who are both hypocritical. They're aligning themselves with a party that stands for less government intrusion, yet personally believe in more government intrusion in the social sphere. That doesn't make the Tea Party platform hypocritical, but many of its supporters are.

Really? You can't have some of your ideals have higher weighting, and thus, more bearing on your overall position than the others?

 

[barfo]

The party, ultimately, will stand for what its voters believe in. And that's (in part) social conservatism. It might not be their number 1 priority right this minute, but it would be foolish to think they've renounced it by joining the tea party. And it would be foolish to think that a party can just ignore completely the wishes of their own voters for very long.

All the republican voters moving from the republican party to the tea party doesn't actually change anything except the sign on the door.

barfo

 

[Minstrel]

Really? You can't have some of your ideals have higher weighting, and thus, more bearing on your overall position than the others?

Of course you can. People are often contradictory, sometimes moreso, sometimes less so. When you're thumping the drum for limited government but have a number of positions where you want expansive government, I'd say that's moreso. Weren't you criticizing people for "picking and choosing" pay-for-use fee situations based on convenience? Why aren't you the least bit critical of these people for picking and choosing "limited government" based on convenience?
'
I don't think they're bad people for this hypocrisy, but why not call a spade a spade?

 

[maxiep]

I love people who have never been to a Tea party rally or meeting telling us all what the Tea Party stands for. Just terrific stuff.

 

[barfo]

I love people who have never been to a Tea party rally or meeting telling us all what the Tea Party stands for. Just terrific stuff.

We aren't telling you what the tea party stands for. We are telling you what tea party members stand for (according to tea party members).

barfo

 

[RR7]

I love people who have never been to a Tea party rally or meeting telling us all what the Tea Party stands for. Just terrific stuff.

I've never been to a KKK rally, but I can take a guess what they stand for.

 

[magnifier661]

I've never been to a KKK rally, but I can take a guess what they stand for.

touché. Gotta say that was a really good response. But wait, isn't the "Tea Party" back in the 1700's?

 

[maxiep]

I've never been to a KKK rally, but I can take a guess what they stand for.

Exactly right. The KKK stands for racial segregation. Individually, they may have other beliefs, but they're brought together by their belief in separating the races. The KKK focused on their silly racism, they didn't focus on being pro-Life. The Tea Party stands for limited government. Individually, they may have other beliefs, but they're brought together by their belief in limited government. I'm glad you figured it out.