What if I told you no one is going to hell?

[Minstrel]

I hear you. Just about any attempt to truly understand the nature and reasons of God are going to come up unsatisfying because there is so much about Him that we are simply incapable of truly understanding. What is the very nature of an eternal existence? Does He exist in a dimension above/outside our own? Are there other beings in that dimension (ie, is God the "one and only" only in terms of our dimension, but one of many in His)? Why does/would He want to glorify Himself through His creation? Is that concept even correct/valid? These futile questions (and others like them) will always lead to unsatisfying conclusions. We don't have to capacity to ascertain, let alone comprehend, the answers.

I don't have answers for these things, and I never will. And I take solace in that fact. Even if the things the Bible indicates/suggests God wants seem to be things that humans want, we don't/can't really know why He wants them. And in my mind, we don't need to. That's what faith is all about.

How's that for unsatisfying?

Let me ask you another question that I like to ask people of faith who are thoughtful. What should be the genesis (no pun intended) of faith? Clearly, there must be a reason why you have faith in the first place. I could claim that I am a god and that I can't prove it, you must simply have faith and you would (very correctly) decline to have such faith. What causes you to have the faith in the first place in god and Christianity?

Once you have the faith, I can understand all your viewpoints...but those viewpoints, naturally, don't work for someone who doesn't already have faith. What originally convinced you that this was true and that you should have faith in it? Where do you think someone who doesn't have faith should find sufficient reason to start having faith?

"From whence does faith spring?" is a question that has always interested me.

 

[magnifier661]

I hear you. Just about any attempt to truly understand the nature and reasons of God are going to come up unsatisfying because there is so much about Him that we are simply incapable of truly understanding. What is the very nature of an eternal existence? Does He exist in a dimension above/outside our own? Are there other beings in that dimension (ie, is God the "one and only" only in terms of our dimension, but one of many in His)? Why does/would He want to glorify Himself through His creation? Is that concept even correct/valid? These futile questions (and others like them) will always lead to unsatisfying conclusions. We don't have to capacity to ascertain, let alone comprehend, the answers.

I don't have answers for these things, and I never will. And I take solace in that fact. Even if the things the Bible indicates/suggests God wants seem to be things that humans want, we don't/can't really know why He wants them. And in my mind, we don't need to. That's what faith is all about.

How's that for unsatisfying?

Wonderful response! Repped!

 

[magnifier661]

"From whence does faith spring?" is a question that has always interested me.

I can give my personal testimony. I was once atheist and hated God. The testimony of my brother turning from drugs and becoming "ON FIRE" for the Lord planted the seed. It still took years for faith to creep in, but it eventually did. I attended church and somehow the message just pierced my with deep conviction. I felt a warm embodiment of love, guilt and pressure to go up to the alter. When I arrived, the pastor asked why I went forward. I honestly didn't know and just responded "I'm sorry". Then I was lead to the Lord.

Anyway, out of my personal experience, it seemed the kindness I received in the messages from my pastor "Who I believe was from God using him as a vessel".

It could be different for other people, but I'm sure we could gather much data from millions of converts.

 

[magnifier661]

Here is a testimony from a previous "atheist blog writing" convert

http://www.testimonyshare.com/testimony-of-an-atheist/

A bit of who he was before he got saved

Once in college, I became disillusioned with the world. I saw how much gray there was, and I somehow took it personally, as though I had been lied to my whole life. I thought of myself as a good, strong, moral person (as no one usually sees their own mistakes), and my own arrogance lead me into a rut. I became very cynical. I was cynical against institutions that were praised, individuals for being regarded as heroes, and especially of religion, as I thought it to be more or less a delusional lie.

I found, however, a temporary peace in my arrogance and ignorance. I had always been told how "smart" I was, and I began to thrive off that. I began reading more, and one of the books I read was "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. That book moved me from "fence sitting" about my belief in God to being an out and out atheist. I became active in my atheism. I treated it as though I was trying to convert people. I would go into blogs, chartrooms, online forums; I would post videos, and even openly challenge "theists" to debating the existence of God. I would do this as often as I could. I came across many interesting people, who adamantly challenged me. When I say "challenge", I mean they answered my call for a "debate", and they used their faith and knowledge about God to combat my ignorance and arrogance. They did not penetrate me much though, but they still played an integral part in my salvation as I would find out later.

As much as I had "faith" in science and reason, the only real satisfaction that I had was telling myself how much smarter I was than the rest of the world. I felt better about myself because of all the fools around me who put their faith in nothing, a delusion. I got such a kick out sites like www.gotquestions.org, which would go to such lengths to contradict the infallible science. I thought that all of the "born again" Christians were fools, fakers, or weak conformists. Yet, the only arguments that I was really proposing to them were just regurgitations of Dawkins, Hitchens, and other cynics, or I was speaking out of my own personal pain. I was still very much disenchanted with life, and felt that I deserved so much more than I had.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Let me ask you another question that I like to ask people of faith who are thoughtful. What should be the genesis (no pun intended) of faith? Clearly, there must be a reason why you have faith in the first place. I could claim that I am a god and that I can't prove it, you must simply have faith and you would (very correctly) decline to have such faith. What causes you to have the faith in the first place in god and Christianity?

Once you have the faith, I can understand all your viewpoints...but those viewpoints, naturally, don't work for someone who doesn't already have faith. What originally convinced you that this was true and that you should have faith in it? Where do you think someone who doesn't have faith should find sufficient reason to start having faith?

"From whence does faith spring?" is a question that has always interested me.

That's one of those multi-faceted things that, again, always leads to an unsatisfying response. In almost all circumstances, myself included, it starts with an emotional pull based on the tenets of Christianity (Forgiveness, acceptance, unconditional love). Honestly, my first exposure to the gospel resulted in an emotional breakdown that completely befuddled me, because I had no idea what I had just heard. But in addition to that, for me, it was:

• part a dissatisfaction with the concept of the universe's unbelievable complexity (slowly) evolving from nothingness leading me to conclude that design requires a designer;
• part a dissatisfaction with the brokenness of this world (and my own part in that), leading me to presume that there must be something better;
• part a recognition of the significant difference in behavior observed/experienced from Christians I interacted with vs most of the rest of the world;
• part an investigation in the difference regarding the recorded claims/actions of Christ v other major religious figures and the significance thereof;

And even that's wholly insufficient to really quantify my salvation experience. What I do know is that the longer I've traveled my faith journey, the more convinced I've become in the value of living a Christian life. Even if I'm wrong, I won't have any regrets at the end.

 

[magnifier661]

That's one of those multi-faceted things that, again, always leads to an unsatisfying response. In almost all circumstances, myself included, it starts with an emotional pull based on the tenets of Christianity (Forgiveness, acceptance, unconditional love). Honestly, my first exposure to the gospel resulted in an emotional breakdown that completely befuddled me, because I had no idea what I had just heard. But in addition to that, for me, it was:

• part a dissatisfaction with the concept of the universe's unbelievable complexity (slowly) evolving from nothingness leading me to conclude that design requires a designer;
• part a dissatisfaction with the brokenness of this world (and my own part in that), leading me to presume that there must be something better;
• part a recognition of the significant difference in behavior observed/experienced from Christians I interacted with vs most of the rest of the world;
• part an investigation in the difference regarding the recorded claims/actions of Christ v other major religious figures and the significance thereof;

And even that's wholly insufficient to really quantify my salvation experience. What I do know is that the longer I've traveled my faith journey, the more convinced I've become in the value of living a Christian life. Even if I'm wrong, I won't have any regrets at the end.

Do you ever break down in tears of joy when you see other's get saved? It happens to me all the time.

 

[barfo]

I was once atheist and hated God.

You hated something you didn't believe existed?

barfo

 

[magnifier661]

You hated something you didn't believe existed?

barfo

I should have been more specific. I hated the concept of God.

 

[barfo]

I should have been more specific. I hated the concept of God.

Well, to each his own. I find the concept pretty cool, like flying monkeys or traveling back in time to kill your parents before you are born.

barfo

 

[Minstrel]

I find the concept pretty cool, like flying monkeys

I mean, cool and frightening, right?

 

[barfo]

I mean, cool and frightening, right?

No, no, my flying monkeys are tasked with tracking down supermodels and politely inviting them back to my lair.

barfo

 

[MarAzul]

I hear you. Just about any attempt to truly understand the nature and reasons of God are going to come up unsatisfying because there is so much about Him that we are simply incapable of truly understanding. What is the very nature of an eternal existence? Does He exist in a dimension above/outside our own? Are there other beings in that dimension (ie, is God the "one and only" only in terms of our dimension, but one of many in His)? Why does/would He want to glorify Himself through His creation? Is that concept even correct/valid? These futile questions (and others like them) will always lead to unsatisfying conclusions. We don't have to capacity to ascertain, let alone comprehend, the answers.

I don't have answers for these things, and I never will. And I take solace in that fact. Even if the things the Bible indicates/suggests God wants seem to be things that humans want, we don't/can't really know why He wants them. And in my mind, we don't need to. That's what faith is all about.

How's that for unsatisfying?

Thanks for the thought. I especially like and agree that we do not need to know everything.
I don't expect a man ever will.

 

[Minstrel]

Thanks for the responses about faith, PtldPlatypus and magnifier.

It interests me in a somewhat epistemological sense: if we start from no knowledge and no biases (no being born into families that raise children in a religion, making it the default setting for them), what are the things that should lead us to believing in a god (or gods) that pursue a policy of not demonstrating their power obviously and instead require faith. Should there be logical precepts that lead us there, should it be that we feel an emotional resonance with the belief structure or is it just that we should wait to have a personal experience of being touched by god that removes all doubt for us?

Knowing when to believe in something that (purposely) leaves no evidence behind and when not to is an interesting question, I think.

 

[magnifier661]

Thanks for the responses about faith, PtldPlatypus and magnifier.

It interests me in a somewhat epistemological sense: if we start from no knowledge and no biases (no being born into families that raise children in a religion, making it the default setting for them), what are the things that should lead us to believing in a god (or gods) that pursue a policy of not demonstrating their power obviously and instead require faith. Should there be logical precepts that lead us there, should it be that we feel an emotional resonance with the belief structure or is it just that we should wait to have a personal experience of being touched by god that removes all doubt for us?

Knowing when to believe in something that (purposely) leaves no evidence behind and when not to is an interesting question, I think.

You are most welcome.

As for your second point, I have a few answers.

1.) Christian outreach to those that may not know him.

2.) Humanity are a very curious creature. I think it is in our nature to seek truth. Quite possibly one may just stumble into Christianity by their own curiosity? I would mention the other religions, but we are directing all these questions towards Christianity.

3.) I think your idea of evidence isn't all evidence. I believe God living through people is a form of evidence. But we had that debate in the other thread.

In the end, I wish you nothing but the best in pursuit of truth. It was a pleasure debating you... I had a great feeling that you actually read what I wrote and actually tried to make sense of it.

 

[Minstrel]

In the end, I wish you nothing but the best in pursuit of truth. It was a pleasure debating you... I had a great feeling that you actually read what I wrote and actually tried to make sense of it.

I always enjoy discussing things with people who are civil and put thought into their responses.

 

[KingSpeed]

I can give my personal testimony. I was once atheist and hated God. The testimony of my brother turning from drugs and becoming "ON FIRE" for the Lord planted the seed. It still took years for faith to creep in, but it eventually did. I attended church and somehow the message just pierced my with deep conviction. I felt a warm embodiment of love, guilt and pressure to go up to the alter. When I arrived, the pastor asked why I went forward. I honestly didn't know and just responded "I'm sorry". Then I was lead to the Lord.

Anyway, out of my personal experience, it seemed the kindness I received in the messages from my pastor "Who I believe was from God using him as a vessel".

It could be different for other people, but I'm sure we could gather much data from millions of converts.

How can you be an atheist and hate God? An atheist doesn't believe in God.

 

[magnifier661]

How can you be an atheist and hate God? An atheist doesn't believe in God.

Did you not read my re-write to barfo?

 

[MarAzul]

Did you not read my re-write to barfo?

Ha! I did.

You know I asked myself one day, why do men need God? Then I asked, why do men need religion?

Not knowing the answer or even the possible answers to either question, I set out to study, read, read everything I could find on the subject that I could read. ( I didn't learn Hebrew or Greek)
After about six years I satisfied myself that there were multiple reasons for both question. Then I read the Declaration of Independence and understood it for the first time.

 

[magnifier661]

See you in Heaven brother

[video=youtube;urlTBBKTO68]

Atheist meeting God. And btw atheists, you will enjoy it

 

[crowTrobot]

I can give my personal testimony. I was once atheist and hated God. The testimony of my brother turning from drugs and becoming "ON FIRE" for the Lord planted the seed. It still took years for faith to creep in, but it eventually did. I attended church and somehow the message just pierced my with deep conviction. I felt a warm embodiment of love, guilt and pressure to go up to the alter. When I arrived, the pastor asked why I went forward. I honestly didn't know and just responded "I'm sorry". Then I was lead to the Lord.

Anyway, out of my personal experience, it seemed the kindness I received in the messages from my pastor "Who I believe was from God using him as a vessel".

It could be different for other people, but I'm sure we could gather much data from millions of converts.

It would be the same type of purely emotional experience for most, although most would be converting to the religion of their particular culture or heritage.