What if I told you that there is no "heaven" for "righteous souls"

[PtldPlatypus]

Where in scripture does it say that people's souls exist eternally, and that Christians' souls go to heaven immediately after they die? Is it not more reasonable that "everlasting life" is actually a physical, post-apocalyptic resurrection of those who have "died in Christ"? And rather than eternal punishment for non-believers, just the complete cessation of existence they already presume and profess.

What would you say to that?

 

[MarAzul]

Where in scripture does it say that people's souls exist eternally, and that Christians' souls go to heaven immediately after they die? Is it not more reasonable that "everlasting life" is actually a physical, post-apocalyptic resurrection of those who have "died in Christ"? And rather than eternal punishment for non-believers, just the complete cessation of existence they already presume and profess.

What would you say to that?

OK.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

Where in scripture does it say that people's souls exist eternally, and that Christians' souls go to heaven immediately after they die? Is it not more reasonable that "everlasting life" is actually a physical, post-apocalyptic resurrection of those who have "died in Christ"? And rather than eternal punishment for non-believers, just the complete cessation of existence they already presume and profess.

What would you say to that?

You probably know scripture far more in depth than I, so we could go back and forth with new and old testament..meh..the one flaw that stands out in your logic is that the concept of hell being ruled by the fallen Lucifer, the prophecy of him dominating the earth in the end days, implies that there is an actual plane that he exists in and that he will be able to arrive from...to take that a step further, if the dominion of evil belongs to Satan, then so do all of the souls that reject God.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

the one flaw that stands out in your logic is that the concept of hell being ruled by the fallen Lucifer, the prophecy of him dominating the earth in the end days, implies that there is an actual plane that he exists in and that he will be able to arrive from...to take that a step further, if the dominion of evil belongs to Satan, then so do all of the souls that reject God.

Satan's existence notwithstanding, why do the souls of deceased unrighteous necessarily need to be housed in the actual plane in which Lucifer presently exists? Why must he have ownership of the souls that reject God? Is there a scriptural basis for that notion?

I'm not making any statements here, just asking questions.

 

[Denny Crane]

Satan's existence notwithstanding, why do the souls of deceased unrighteous necessarily need to be housed in the actual plane in which Lucifer presently exists? Why must he have ownership of the souls that reject God? Is there a scriptural basis for that notion?

I'm not making any statements here, just asking questions.

I think Lucifer made the no fly list.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Where in scripture does it say that people's souls exist eternally, and that Christians' souls go to heaven immediately after they die? Is it not more reasonable that "everlasting life" is actually a physical, post-apocalyptic resurrection of those who have "died in Christ"? And rather than eternal punishment for non-believers, just the complete cessation of existence they already presume and profess.

What would you say to that?

If there's no heaven, there's no reason to be good, therefore I will rob your house since there is no reason for morality.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

If there's no heaven, there's no reason to be good, therefore I will rob your house since there is no reason for morality.

So you are of the opinion that morality does not exist outside religion?

Interesting.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

So you are of the opinion that morality does not exist outside religion?

Interesting.

Nope. We are just animals and savages without the fear of God or the afterlife.

 

[barfo]

Nope. We are just animals and savages without the fear of God or the afterlife.

Are you saying atheists are animals and savages?

barfo

 

[MarAzul]

If there's no heaven, there's no reason to be good, therefore I will rob your house since there is no reason for morality.

Ah, but your lack of morality can expose your mortality.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Are you saying atheists are animals and savages?

barfo

They were raised in cultures where moral codes via religion have been long established. They are atheists, but the society they were raised in is one that has laws and rules that were based on reward or punishment in the afterlife.

 

[barfo]

They were raised in cultures where moral codes via religion have been long established. They are atheists, but the society they were raised in is one that has laws and rules that were based on reward or punishment in the afterlife.

Does every culture have a history of a religion with the concept of an afterlife?

barfo

 

[DaLincolnJones]

Satan's existence notwithstanding, why do the souls of deceased unrighteous necessarily need to be housed in the actual plane in which Lucifer presently exists? Why must he have ownership of the souls that reject God? Is there a scriptural basis for that notion?

I'm not making any statements here, just asking questions.

You know, I cant think of any specific instance that would support that they would be housed, per say..And , I did find reference to those that do not believe dying a "second" death.. so you may have something here..

I will have to give this some thought

I often find that my preconceived beliefs, when held to the light of study, are not always correct...if you are interested, I would share an example some other time.

 

[Denny Crane]

For you, barfo

http://www.subgenius.com

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Does every culture have a history of a religion with the concept of an afterlife?

barfo

Pretty much.

 

[magnifier661]

Does every culture have a history of a religion with the concept of an afterlife?

barfo

Even your belief does

EDIT: explanation

When you die, your organic self is always part of the universe. Your entire lineage has been mapped out the moment the universe expanded.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

Even your belief does

EDIT: explanation

When you die, your organic self is always part of the universe. Your entire lineage has been mapped out the moment the universe expanded.

hmm the only exception that I can think of off hand, is the belief that when you die the rest of what we precieve to be reality ceases to exist

 

[magnifier661]

hmm the only exception that I can think of off hand, is the belief that when you die the rest of what we precieve to be reality ceases to exist

That's the funny thing about atheism. They really don't want to believe life exists after death, but it really does. Even with their belief.

 

[Denny Crane]

When I die, the chemical and electrical processes that give me consciousness stop and it's lights out forever. That's all there is to it. My body is an empty shell.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

When I die, the chemical and electrical processes that give me consciousness stop and it's lights out forever. That's all there is to it. My body is an empty shell.

so in your belief, you are no higher a life form than an amoeba? Interesting...

 

[magnifier661]

When I die, the chemical and electrical processes that give me consciousness stop and it's lights out forever. That's all there is to it. My body is an empty shell.

There has been empirical evident of DNA memory within living cells. And if you believe our organic self "chemical and electrical process" is all we have, then that energy and memory lives on.

 

[Minstrel]

There's a concept that arises out of quantum theory that humans (just like everything else) are simply patterns of information. Everything that you view as "you" is a part of that pattern of information. It's well known that we are constantly losing and gaining atoms and that over the course of a year, every atom that makes you up has been replaced. What keeps you "consistent" throughout all that assembling and disassembling is the information pattern that manifests itself to our senses via those atoms.

When you die, the pattern of information isn't necessarily obliterated, but with all the changes that go on and the manifestation of your constituent parts being redistributed into the world and universe, the pattern breaks apart. But the "imprint" (so to speak) of that pattern (and all the changes it went through) isn't necessarily gone and isn't necessarily impossible to reconstruct, in theory.

I'm simplifying this a lot and I don't necessarily fully understand it, not having a strong background in quantum physics. It's an interesting idea, though.

 

[magnifier661]

There's a concept that arises out of quantum theory that humans (just like everything else) are simply patterns of information. Everything that you view as "you" is a part of that pattern of information. It's well known that we are constantly losing and gaining atoms and that over the course of a year, every atom that makes you up has been replaced. What keeps you "consistent" throughout all that assembling and disassembling is the information pattern that manifests itself to our senses via those atoms.

When you die, the pattern of information isn't necessarily obliterated, but with all the changes that go on and the manifestation of your constituent parts being redistributed into the world and universe, the pattern breaks apart. But the "imprint" (so to speak) of that pattern (and all the changes it went through) isn't necessarily gone and isn't necessarily impossible to reconstruct, in theory.

I'm simplifying this a lot and I don't necessarily fully understand it, not having a strong background in quantum physics. It's an interesting idea, though.

That's exactly what I am trying to explain. As Denny said "My consciousness dies with my empty shell" could be entirely wrong. And you don't need "God" to actually believe it.

 

[barfo]

My body is an empty shell.

Aw, don't be so hard on yourself. Even libertarians probably have some redeeming qualities.

barfo

 

[barfo]

As Denny said "My consciousness dies with my empty shell" could be entirely wrong.

Anyone in this thread could be entirely wrong.

barfo

 

[magnifier661]

Anyone in this thread could be entirely wrong.

barfo

Yep

 

[barfo]

Even your belief does

EDIT: explanation

When you die, your organic self is always part of the universe. Your entire lineage has been mapped out the moment the universe expanded.

? How do you know that's my belief? Maybe when my human life is over, I return to my home planet.

barfo

 

[magnifier661]

? How do you know that's my belief? Maybe when my human life is over, I return to my home planet.

barfo

You believe that? I could have sworn you openly admitted you were atheist

 

[barfo]

You believe that? I could have sworn you openly admitted you were atheist

Is that inconsistent with being atheist? There are no gods on my home planet either.

barfo

 

[magnifier661]

Is that inconsistent with being atheist? There are no gods on my home planet either.

barfo

Well played...