What player trait(s) are you willing to give up on for pick #23?

[Wizard Mentor]

I was reading another thread where Rasta said

Re: WARP: yes, if you're going to be 23 or 24 in your rookie year, you'll probably have a better WARP than some 20 year old. But I'm more interested in what it'll be two years after that.

which got me thinking. You have to give up SOMETHING, we're drafting what is nominally the 23rd best rookie. To put that in perspective, if we drafted the 23rd best player in the draft, there would be TEN guys who are better, but still not good enough to make the 12-man rookie/soph team (yes, I know that doesn't exist any more). Put another way, we don't have a pick next year, we "need" to draft someone better than the 23rd best player in this draft.

So,
Do you give up Character, and draft Robert Upshaw?
Do you give up Shooting, and draft Hollis-Jefferson?
Do you give up Age, and draft Delon Wright?
Do you give up Toughness, and draft Wood?

Superman's not going to be there at pick 23. What do you give up? Here are some tentative generic categories (position specific abilities like rebounding and assisting are not included): (Pick ones that you don't think are important for your pick in THIS YEAR's draft)

Mental Traits:
*************
character
maturity
work ethic
toughness
intangibles
basketball IQ

Physical Traits: (Think NBA Combine)
**************
age
athleticism/jumping
size
quickness

Basketball Traits:
****************
shooting
ceiling/upside
defense

Other Traits:
************
nba ready
team fit
team need


Now, based based on your choice, who do you draft?
Alternate/Bonus: Which Category do you think is most/least important?

 

[BonesJones]

If we think LA comes back we give ceiling/upside. You can give up character because when a guy reaches the league it might click in his head. You can give up shooting because we have so much, especially with our PF off the bench being a 42% 3P shooter.

 

[ThugginPaulyGAllen]

I was reading another thread where Rasta said


which got me thinking. You have to give up SOMETHING, we're drafting what is nominally the 23rd best rookie. To put that in perspective, if we drafted the 23rd best player in the draft, there would be TEN guys who are better, but still not good enough to make the 12-man rookie/soph team (yes, I know that doesn't exist any more). Put another way, we don't have a pick next year, we "need" to draft someone better than the 23rd best player in this draft.

So,
Do you give up Character, and draft Robert Upshaw?
Do you give up Shooting, and draft Hollis-Jefferson?
Do you give up Age, and draft Delon Wright?
Do you give up Toughness, and draft Wood?

Superman's not going to be there at pick 23. What do you give up? Here are some tentative generic categories (position specific abilities like rebounding and assisting are not included): (Pick ones that you don't think are important for your pick in THIS YEAR's draft)

Mental Traits:
*************
character
maturity
work ethic (toss up, sometimes there are REALLY good players who just mail it in. As long as they work hard and give it their all in GAMES. Mailing it in during a game is a DEALBREAKER - see Howard, Dwight - non champion)
toughness
intangibles
basketball IQ

Physical Traits: (Think NBA Combine)
**************
age
athleticism/jumping
size
quickness

Basketball Traits:
****************
shooting
ceiling/upside
defense

Other Traits:
************
nba ready
team fit
team need


Now, based based on your choice, who do you draft?
Alternate/Bonus: Which Category do you think is most/least important?

I draft Upshaw because his character flaws are...not to the level some people think. He actually takes blame for his shit unlike someone like Royce White, who blamed the Rockets because he was fat as fuck and lazy.

With that said, the items in bold are absolutely non-negotioable for my draftING of said player. Underlined is would love it, but not a deal breaker. Unedited - don't really care, shooting is one of the easier things to improve, etc.

The stuff you can't really teach is imperative - court vision, understanding, etc.

 

[BonesJones]

You can get away with lack of BB IQ if the player is 19 or 20.. if he's older its a deal breaker

 

[BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94]

Shooting. I can live without it as long as the player can defend his ass off. Besides, shooting can be developed.

 

[Sedatedfork]

I draft Upshaw because his character flaws are...not to the level some people think. He actually takes blame for his shit unlike someone like Royce White, who blamed the Rockets because he was fat as fuck and lazy.

I entirely agree with this on Upshaw. I've listened to him in interviews and the guy clearly had some addiction issues and to me he sounds very genuine that he is clean, learned from his mistakes, and fought his demons. He accepts responsibility. If he relapses, then it will have been a bad bet. I am rooting for him to succeed and would be happy with his selection.

If LA is gone, I don't worry about team fit or NBA ready. What you focus on is physical abilities and work ethic.

 

[BonesJones]

I would love to rebuild by drafting Upshaw and developing him and Meyers. Itd be kinda like Rasheed and Ben Wallace

 

[ThugginPaulyGAllen]

You can get away with lack of BB IQ if the player is 19 or 20.. if he's older its a deal breaker

Really not trying to hassle you, but who is the last 19/20 year old basketball moron who learned the game and became smart basketball wise?

I just don't think BBIQ is something you develop in the NBA, IMO it's mainly instincts from playing.

I'd say the one exception is players who just recently started playing the game but, as we saw with Bismack Biyombo, that doesn't relate all that well either. We will see how it goes for the Sixers and Embiid.

I ask, because, I'm willing to be persuaded on that one. BBIQ is just so tough, I really don't think you can get drafted without it.

I just can't think of a 19 year old who panned out when they were sign as a poor BBIQ player. I'm sure I'm forgetting obvious.

 

[ThugginPaulyGAllen]

I would love to rebuild by drafting Upshaw and developing him and Meyers. Itd be kinda like Rasheed and Ben Wallace

Idiot post of the day coming from me:

Upshaw could start for us day 1

 

[BonesJones]

Really not trying to hassle you, but who is the last 19/20 year old basketball moron who learned the game and became smart basketball wise?

I just don't think BBIQ is something you develop in the NBA, IMO it's mainly instincts from playing.

I'd say the one exception is players who just recently started playing the game but, as we saw with Bismack Biyombo, that doesn't relate all that well either. We will see how it goes for the Sixers and Embiid.

I ask, because, I'm willing to be persuaded on that one. BBIQ is just so tough, I really don't think you can get drafted without it.

I just can't think of a 19 year old who panned out when they were sign as a poor BBIQ player. I'm sure I'm forgetting obvious.

Meyers Leonard... He played like an idiot the first 2 years... now he's a big part of our future. You can always learn more about the game, if you're willing. A hard work ethic can develop BB IQ, and playing time can help to improve instincts. I think Meyers is a perfect example of this.
Basically you can't draft a guy with a lack of BB IQ and a bad work ethic

 

[Sedatedfork]

Here is the interview with Upshaw I referenced above. It is the 5/21 interview.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/mitch-in-the-morning-ondemand/id92355604?mt=2

 

[BonesJones]

Idiot post of the day coming from me:

Upshaw could start for us day 1

if we're rebuilding then that's not dumb at all. The dude is a top 10 draft talent IMO, and he could develop into a dominant defensive center.
If we're keeping LMA and we're trying to contend then he shouldn't start

 

[ThugginPaulyGAllen]

Meyers Leonard... He played like an idiot the first 2 years... now he's a big part of our future. You can always learn more about the game, if you're willing. A hard work ethic can develop BB IQ, and playing time can help to improve instincts. I think Meyers is a perfect example of this.
Basically you can't draft a guy with a lack of BB IQ and a bad work ethic

I wouldn't say he was an idiot, just really indecisive and not confident in himself, in fact, his draft profile states that his IQ is actually pretty high:


Good offensive awareness ... Talented passer with good court-vision ... Does a lot of damage in the post at this level ... Willing to wrestle for good position near the block ... Uses his agility well to get around the rim, and is a quality finisher due to his athleticism ... Becoming a better outside shooter, and is dangerous when left alone from 12-18 feet ... Nice touch from the free-throw line; shouldn't be a liability there in the future ... Sells contact well (he's a good flopper) ... Defends with his body more than his hands ... Protects the rim well on defense ... Blocks a lot of shots ... Smart help-defender ... Gets his hands on a lot of rebounds, and is aware enough to tip-out to teammates when he can't corral one himself ... Usually does a good job of finding somebody to box-out whenever a shot goes up ...

The bold is indicative of high BBIQ IMO.

I'd say will Barton is a more low IQ player. Reckless, unaware, almost too confident.

 

[ThugginPaulyGAllen]

if we're rebuilding then that's not dumb at all. The dude is a top 10 draft talent IMO, and he could develop into a dominant defensive center.
If we're keeping LMA and we're trying to contend then he shouldn't start

I still think he could start. 90% of centers suck nowadays and his defense should more readily translate. We don't necessarily need his offense. And with how many t3ams go small, it would be even less of an issue...uuuuntillll...

We play anyone in the playoffs with a remotely capable offensive center.. Dwight, Gasol, Cousins if he somehow made it..

Otherwise I'd be fine with him guarding Kanter, Bogut, DeAndre, even Duncan (because of age).

Mainly, it's more about how poor of a position offensively center is and his defensive impact, if it translated, would highly negate anything else. Cheaper Hibbert with more potential IMO, but keeping his head straight and relying on him obviously would be a big risk. But he has the talent and I'd argue with most pieces back, we would have the pieces around him to risk it, with LMA, Kaman, Leonard, Rolo. (I'm still in favor of Leonard starting at C though now that I think about it. His spacing is invaluable for Aldridge and Damian. If we could get another slasher somehow, that would be incredible.) 3pt shooting is winning games now, saw some analytics article about the shot now.

 

[BonesJones]

I still think he could start. 90% of centers suck nowadays and his defense should more readily translate. We don't necessarily need his offense. And with how many t3ams go small, it would be even less of an issue...uuuuntillll...

We play anyone in the playoffs with a remotely capable offensive center.. Dwight, Gasol, Cousins if he somehow made it..

Otherwise I'd be fine with him guarding Kanter, Bogut, DeAndre, even Duncan (because of age).

Mainly, it's more about how poor of a position offensively center is and his defensive impact, if it translated, would highly negate anything else. Cheaper Hibbert with more potential IMO, but keeping his head straight and relying on him obviously would be a big risk. But he has the talent and I'd argue with most pieces back, we would have the pieces around him to risk it, with LMA, Kaman, Leonard, Rolo. (I'm still in favor of Leonard starting at C though now that I think about it. His spacing is invaluable for Aldridge and Damian. If we could get another slasher somehow, that would be incredible.) 3pt shooting is winning games now, saw some analytics article about the shot now.

starting Upshaw would open up more minutes for Leonard while trading Batum would open up max cap space. We could pursue Draymond or Butler for max, or DeMarre Carroll/Middleton for $12M and then build a really strong bench.

 

[blue9]

Really not trying to hassle you, but who is the last 19/20 year old basketball moron who learned the game and became smart basketball wise?

Jermaine O'neal?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I don't know quite how to answer the question, so I'll work it out in reverse by ranking the traits I value in the order I value them (so whatever comes last will be the answer).
1. "Feel for the game"/"Basketball IQ"
2. Passing ability (this sort of follows from the above)
3. Defense
4. Rebounding
5. Character
6. Shooting
7. Height
8. Athleticism

I would've had shooting last in the past, but I understand that the game has changed.

HOWEVER: it's not really that simple. What feature you value also depends on the rest of your roster. If you have a great lockerroom or a dominant personality (like LeBron James) then you can stand a knucklehead (like JR Smith).

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

Delon wright please. Dude isn't even that old. And crafty pgs can play until their late thirties

 

[BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94]

Delon wright please. Dude isn't even that old. And crafty pgs can play until their late thirties

Player age is really a non factor IMHO. If the players good he's still gonna give you 10+ years of quality basketball.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Player age is really a non factor IMHO. If the players good he's still gonna give you 10+ years of quality basketball.

That's not the complaint. The complaint is that the stats are misleading. Of course you're going to put up better stats if you're older than your peers by an average of a couple of years, particularly at that age. So Delon Wright's stats looks really good, much better than some 19 year old, but the fair comparison is that 19 year old to Wright's stats when he was 19.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

That's not the complaint. The complaint is that the stats are misleading. Of course you're going to put up better stats if you're older than your peers by an average of a couple of years, particularly at that age. So Delon Wright's stats looks really good, much better than some 19 year old, but the fair comparison is that 19 year old to Wright's stats when he was 19.

It's not obvious that others will grow ahead of him. Your quibble is PART of the same reluctance potential Brandon Roy drafters had (beside his knee). Many thought that he wasn't "athletic" and had leveled off. He showed them, and it's not obvious other 4-year players also continue to grow significantly.

But... I still like Upshaw. I just think that if he didn't have all of these drug issues he'd be in the top 5 conversation (I could be wrong about this of course )

 

[Wizard Mentor]

I do think one of the overrated qualities are...
"pro body" (Martel Webster)
"sweet-looking shot" (Martel Webster, again)

 

[BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94]

That's not the complaint. The complaint is that the stats are misleading. Of course you're going to put up better stats if you're older than your peers by an average of a couple of years, particularly at that age. So Delon Wright's stats looks really good, much better than some 19 year old, but the fair comparison is that 19 year old to Wright's stats when he was 19.

I've never thought that was a fair thing to do, some players bloom later than others. Honestly the majority of the young guys that dominate aren't using basketball skill as much as pure athleticism.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Work ethic and a good head on his shoulders are pretty non-negotiable with me.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

It's not obvious that others will grow ahead of him. Your quibble is PART of the same reluctance potential Brandon Roy drafters had (beside his knee). Many thought that he wasn't "athletic" and had leveled off. He showed them, and it's not obvious other 4-year players also continue to grow significantly.

Yes, but:
1. Roy was amazing and unusual.
2. It did not end well.

You can always find some examples that go against the trend. But if it's still a trend then the odds are against you.

It does seem like there will be a LOT of choices this year. Is it that this is a deep draft, or is it just that we can always convince ourselves that everyone we like is a star in the making? If you want to dampen your enthusiasm, go look at past drafts and notice how few players actually break through from each draft. What if this year is like 2010?

1 Washington Wizards John Wall PG, 6-4, 195 Kentucky
2 Philadelphia 76ers Evan Turner SG, 6-7, 214 Ohio State
3 New Jersey Nets Derrick Favors F, 6-10, 246 Georgia Tech
4 Minnesota Timberwolves Wesley Johnson F, 6-7, 195 Syracuse
5 Sacramento Kings DeMarcus Cousins C, 6-11, 290 Kentucky
6 Golden State Warriors Ekpe Udoh F, 6-10, 240 Baylor
7 Detroit Pistons Greg Monroe F, 6-11, 240 Georgetown
8 Los Angeles Clippers Al-Farouq Aminu F, 6-8, 210 Wake Forest
9 Utah Jazz Gordon Hayward F, 6-8, 200 Butler
10 Indiana Pacers Paul George F, 6-9, 185 Fresno State
11 New Orleans Hornets Cole Aldrich C, 6-11, 245 Kansas
12 Memphis Grizzlies Xavier Henry G, 6-6, 210 Kansas
13 Toronto Raptors Ed Davis F, 6-9, 215 North Carolina
14 Houston Rockets Patrick Patterson F, 6-8, 223 Kentucky
15 Milwaukee Bucks Larry Sanders F, 6-9, 205 Virginia Commonwealth
16 Minnesota Timberwolves Luke Babbitt (traded to Portland) F, 6-7, 215 Nevada
17 Chicago Bulls Kevin Seraphin F, 6-9, 265 France
18 Oklahoma City Thunder Eric Bledsoe G, 6-1, 190 Kentucky
19 Boston Celtics Avery Bradley G, 6-3, 180 Texas
20 San Antonio Spurs James Anderson G, 6-6, 195 Oklahoma State
21 Oklahoma City Thunder Craig Brackens F, 6-10, 230 Iowa State
22 Portland Trail Blazers Elliot Williams G, 6-5, 180 Memphis
23 Minnesota Timberwolves Trevor Booker F, 6-7, 240 Clemson
24 Atlanta Hawks Damion James (traded to New Jersey) F, 6-7, 225 Texas
25 Memphis Grizzlies Dominique Jones (Traded to Dallas) G, 6-4, 215 South Florida
26 Oklahoma City Thunder Quincy Pondexter F, 6-6, 225 Washington
27 New Jersey Nets Jordan Crawford (Traded to Atlanta) G, 6-4, 195 Xavier
28 Memphis Grizzlies Greivis Vasquez G, 6-6, 210 Maryland
29 Orlando Magic Daniel Orton C, 6-10, 260 Kentucky
30 Washington Wizards Lazar Hayward F, 6-5, 225 Marquette

31 New Jersey Nets Tibor Pleiss (Traded to Atlanta, then Oklahoma City) C, 7-1, 220 Germany
32 Oklahoma City Thunder Dexter Pittman C, 6-11, 303 Texas
33 Sacramento Kings Hassan Whiteside C, 7-0, 235 Marshall
34 Portland Trail Blazers Armon Johnson G, 6-3, 195 Nevada
35 Washington Wizards Nemanja Bjelica F, 6-10, 223 Serbia (Red Star Serbia)
36 Detroit Pistons Terrico White G, 6-5, 200 Mississippi
37 Milwaukee Bucks Darington Hobson F, 6-6, 205 New Mexico
38 New York Knicks Andy Rautins G, 6-5, 190 Syracuse
39 New York Knicks Landry Fields F, 6-7, 210 Stanford
40 Indiana Pacers Lance Stephenson G, 6-5, 225 Cincinnati
41 Miami Heat Jarvis Varnado F, 6-10, 210 Mississippi State
42 Miami Heat Butler F, 6-7, 225 West Virginia
43 Los Angeles Lakers Devin Ebanks F, 6-8, 210 West Virginia
44 Milwaukee Bucks Jerome Jordan C, 7-0, 235 Tulsa
45 Minnesota Timberwolves Paulao Prestes C, 6-10, 275 Brazil
46 Phoenix Suns Gani Lawal F, 6-9, 230 Georgia Tech
47 Milwaukee Bucks Tiny Gallon F, 6-10, 302 Oklahoma
48 Miami Heat Latavious Williams F, 6-8, 205 Tulsa 66ers (NBDL)
49 San Antonio Spurs Ryan Richards F, 6-11, 230 England
50 Dallas Mavericks Solomon Alabi (traded to Toronto) C, 7-1, 240 Florida State
51 Oklahoma City Thunder Magnum Rolle C, 6-11, 225 Louisiana Tech
52 Boston Celtics Luke Harangody F, 6-7, 240 Notre Dame
53 Atlanta Hawks Pape Sy F, 6-7, 225 Senegal
54 Los Angeles Clippers Willie Warren G, 6-4, 200 Oklahoma
55 Utah Jazz Jeremy Evans F, 6-9, 190 Western Kentucky
56 Minnesota Timberwolves Hamady Ndiaye C, 6-11, 235 Rutgers
57 Dallas Mavericks Ryan Reid F, 6-8, 235 Florida State
58 Los Angeles Lakers Derrick Caracter F, 6-9, 280 Texas-El Paso
59 Orlando Magic Stanley Robinson F, 6-7, 210 Connecticut
60 Phoenix Suns Dwayne Collins F, 6-8, 238 Miami (Fla.)

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

I wouldn't give up athleticism, toughness and the desire to get better.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Yes, but:
1. Roy was amazing and unusual.
2. It did not end well.

You can always find some examples that go against the trend. But if it's still a trend then the odds are against you.

Shrug. The trend is that 80% (total guess) of players drafted don't make it past their rookie contract. So, categorizing is useless? The trend is all categories fail. One of the reasons I enjoy your posts is that you don't do the s2 "everyone sucks" and then feel smug when people fail.

Back to my point: being a 4 year guy isn't a death sentence.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Doctors just diagnosed Robert Upshaw with a heart condition, so he is suspending all workouts...

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on...-has-issue-with-heart-has-suspended-workouts-

 

[Strenuus]

I draft Upshaw because his character flaws are...not to the level some people think. He actually takes blame for his shit unlike someone like Royce White, who blamed the Rockets because he was fat as fuck and lazy.

With that said, the items in bold are absolutely non-negotioable for my draftING of said player. Underlined is would love it, but not a deal breaker. Unedited - don't really care, shooting is one of the easier things to improve, etc.

The stuff you can't really teach is imperative - court vision, understanding, etc.

Wasn't Royce White the guy who had a flying phobia? I never heard anything beyond that. Having a phobia doesn't make you fat as fuck and lazy. If there is more to this story, then okay, but if you're basing it off of just that, then that's just untrue.

 

[Strenuus]

By the way, Tiny Gallon may be one of the best names ever.