Where do we go from here?

[Nikolokolus]

Regardless of your party affiliation or political leanings, Sam Harris provides some food for thought that reaches beyond Trump and into the future.
https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/trump-in-exile2

The section that stood out the most and I realized has been gnawing at the back of my mind for awhile, without being able to fully articulate it:

If there is a silver lining here, it is that many of us now see how vulnerable our political system is to charlatanism, conspiracy theories, and populist unreason on both the Right and the Left. The role that the media has played, rendering us all moths to the Trumpian flame, will be scrutinized for years to come. The truth about us is sobering: We have been playing with our smartphones while hurtling toward the abyss…

This is not an attempt to sway anyone's vote (I think it's a fait accompli that Trump loses at this point) I just think there's some important things to think about with respect to suggestibility, tribalism, plus decorum and civility in discourse (or lack thereof). Maybe the shrill, demonizing, black and white arguments of identity politics and the internet age makes civility in politics impossible? If so what then? What's the end game? What kind of world are we making for ourselves?

 

[e_blazer]

It's an interesting article, but like most of Harris's pieces is flawed by the fact that he considers his own secular progressive worldview as the one true yardstick by which political discourse should be measured. I think this is a common failing among liberals in general. Harris, I would venture, would prefer a political system that has evolved to the point where logic and empirical analysis reign supreme; where folks who are burdened by a religious view of the world are gently (or not so gently if need be) shunted aside so that the enlightened ones can make the rational decisions "best" serving our well being and common good.

While acknowledging that there are some on the Left, as well as the Right, who are susceptible to "charlatanism, conspiracy theories, and populist unreason", Harris fails to recognize that the rise of Trump has only been made possible by the fairly predictable backlash of the far Right to the relentless advance of the secular progressive agenda throughout our legal system and culture. People are seriously pissed that the things that they believe and hold dear are being rapidly brushed aside. It isn't so much that Trump is the right guy to push back at this, I think most on the Right realize the guy has huge failings, but that he has been willing to give voice to the anger that they feel in a bellicose way that guys like Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio never could. I seriously doubt that Trump has any deeply held views of his own, rather he feeds off of the crowd and gives back what they want to hear. Basically, he's the living symbol of the middle finger being flashed by the far Right against the progressive Left. The irony, of course, is that because he's such a flawed person, he's totally unelectable and his candidacy will end up giving the Left not only the White House, but likely the Senate, possibly the House and the near certainty of filling about 4 Supreme Court slots with liberal justices. Well done, Mags & Company.

As a conservative, my hope is that this mess will eventually result in the rise of a renewed conservative movement. Hopefully, it will bring forward some new blood who can beat back the far-Right loons in the Republican Party. I think a strong conservative movement is needed to counterbalance those on the Left who want to see government expand its influence and control. There is so much mistrust and outright hatred between the various factions in the Republican Party that I could as easily see the party splitting in two rather than unifying in the aftermath of Hurricane Trump. My fear is that the anger that Harris writes about will be deflected from Trump and his supporters and instead directed at Hillary Clinton. Assuming the Republicans continue to control the House, I expect four years of special committees digging into the emails and scandals to try to find some way to impeach her. In short, I think things may get worse before they get better.

 

[donkiez]

Regardless of your party affiliation or political leanings, Sam Harris provides some food for thought that reaches beyond Trump and into the future.
https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/trump-in-exile2

The section that stood out the most and I realized has been gnawing at the back of my mind for awhile, without being able to fully articulate it:


This is not an attempt to sway anyone's vote (I think it's a fait accompli that Trump loses at this point) I just think there's some important things to think about with respect to suggestibility, tribalism, plus decorum and civility in discourse (or lack thereof). Maybe the shrill, demonizing, black and white arguments of identity politics and the internet age makes civility in politics impossible? If so what then? What's the end game? What kind of world are we making for ourselves?

Its the Russians fault.

 

[MarAzul]

As a conservative, my hope is that this mess will eventually result in the rise of a renewed conservative movement.

I think things may get worse before they get better.

Good post e_blazer. I agree with most of it including things will get worse if Trump loses. However, I don't hold much hope of things getting better after that, as it will become too difficult after we pass the point of no return. A stacked court and a flood of immigration will seal the deal.

If todays conservatives fear a bellicose Trump so much that they will participate in giving the election to Queen of the progressive left, they will make it worse with no hope in sight of ever correcting anything. Trump is not dangerous, he won't make an end run around congress like the current President, so allowing her in to stack the court instead, is as dumb as it can get. The Constitution will indeed become a meaningless relic of history and there will not be much space or time for a conservative to move, let alone start a movement.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

Good post e_blazer. I agree with most of it including things will get worse if Trump loses. However, I don't hold much hope of things getting better after that, as it will become too difficult after we pass the point of no return. A stacked court and a flood of immigration will seal the deal.

If todays conservatives fear a bellicose Trump so much that they will participate in giving the election to Queen of the progressive left, they will make it worse with no hope in sight of ever correcting anything. Trump is not dangerous, he won't make an end run around congress like the current President, so allowing her in to stack the court instead, is as dumb as it can get. The Constitution will indeed become a meaningless relic of history and there will not be much space or time for a conservative to move, let alone start a movement.

Agreed. The thing is that the college students and young people today want it that way. I only fear for my 4 nieces age 10 and under. Otherwise they can ruin this country however they want.

Watching youtube videos of college kids almost rioting to stop free speech is amazing to me. It is like Russian dash cam car crash videos, I can't look away.

There is one I just saw in canada about a University of Toronto professor who won't call students ze or zhe or whatever it is they want. The kids think he is Hitler.

It is Canada but colleges here are the same.

 

[MarAzul]

Agreed. The thing is that the college students and young people today want it that way. I only fear for my 4 nieces age 10 and under. Otherwise they can ruin this country however they want.

Watching youtube videos of college kids almost rioting to stop free speech is amazing to me. It is like Russian dash cam car crash videos, I can't look away.

There is one I just saw in canada about a University of Toronto professor who won't call students ze or zhe or whatever it is they want. The kids think he is Hitler.

It is Canada but colleges here are the same.

Yes, I only really care, because I have grand children. Hillary isn't going to affect me much, hell I can laugh at her dumb ass along with her dumb ass minions.
But I hate to leave the world in such sick shape.

I would like to see Trump do some of the things he says he will do;

Fix the VA healthcare system. Hillary has not even mentioned it needs fixing.
Fix the mess that is Obama Care. Hillary wants to double down.
Get some jobs for workers again in this country, for US citizens.
Fix the education system in the inner Cities so the kids there can qualify for the jobs that become available.
Fix the borders so that we have control of who immigrates to this country.

Hillary wants open borders! How the hell do you make that work with a government run healthcare system, Social Security system, and other social programs? Dang, we could have 600 million people before she finishes her term(s). Geez, That won't work!!!

 

[blue32]

Watching youtube videos of college kids almost rioting to stop free speech is amazing to me. It is like Russian dash cam car crash videos, I can't look away.

It's everywhere not just Canada and it's fucking astounding. Literally blows my mind. Literally if you do not conform you are an outcast. It's the quickest way to a NWO I've ever seen.

 

[Stevenson]

It literally does not blow your mind.

 

[e_blazer]

It literally does not blow your mind.

I think he meant "laterally". It's shifted his views farther to the right.

 

[PDXFonz]

Where do we go from here?

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

Looking at the chess pieces, and they've been there for a while, I'd guess a war with Russia is next on the agenda regardless of who wins the election.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

Looking at the chess pieces, and they've been there for a while, I'd guess a war with Russia is next on the agenda regardless of who wins the election.

Already hedging your bets for when hillary wins and we go to war with russia, i see.

 

[barfo]

It's an interesting article, but like most of Harris's pieces is flawed by the fact that he considers his own secular progressive worldview as the one true yardstick by which political discourse should be measured. I think this is a common failing among liberals in general. Harris, I would venture, would prefer a political system that has evolved to the point where logic and empirical analysis reign supreme; where folks who are burdened by a religious view of the world are gently (or not so gently if need be) shunted aside so that the enlightened ones can make the rational decisions "best" serving our well being and common good.

While acknowledging that there are some on the Left, as well as the Right, who are susceptible to "charlatanism, conspiracy theories, and populist unreason", Harris fails to recognize that the rise of Trump has only been made possible by the fairly predictable backlash of the far Right to the relentless advance of the secular progressive agenda throughout our legal system and culture. People are seriously pissed that the things that they believe and hold dear are being rapidly brushed aside. It isn't so much that Trump is the right guy to push back at this, I think most on the Right realize the guy has huge failings, but that he has been willing to give voice to the anger that they feel in a bellicose way that guys like Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio never could. I seriously doubt that Trump has any deeply held views of his own, rather he feeds off of the crowd and gives back what they want to hear. Basically, he's the living symbol of the middle finger being flashed by the far Right against the progressive Left. The irony, of course, is that because he's such a flawed person, he's totally unelectable and his candidacy will end up giving the Left not only the White House, but likely the Senate, possibly the House and the near certainty of filling about 4 Supreme Court slots with liberal justices. Well done, Mags & Company.

As a conservative, my hope is that this mess will eventually result in the rise of a renewed conservative movement. Hopefully, it will bring forward some new blood who can beat back the far-Right loons in the Republican Party. I think a strong conservative movement is needed to counterbalance those on the Left who want to see government expand its influence and control. There is so much mistrust and outright hatred between the various factions in the Republican Party that I could as easily see the party splitting in two rather than unifying in the aftermath of Hurricane Trump. My fear is that the anger that Harris writes about will be deflected from Trump and his supporters and instead directed at Hillary Clinton. Assuming the Republicans continue to control the House, I expect four years of special committees digging into the emails and scandals to try to find some way to impeach her. In short, I think things may get worse before they get better.

Nicely put. I'm very curious what will happen to the Republican party. It seems to me the Trumpeteers are not coming back to the old party. Either they take it over (which seems unlikely given their disdain for organization and planning) or they form a third party (again, there's that organizational problem) or maybe they just become a large group of unaligned independents. If Ryan et al. keep the Republican party, how do they woo back those voters? I'm not sure they can. It's possible the Trump crowd just drops out altogether, after all, the system is rigged, and both parties are corrupt, so why bother voting?

That's short term. Long term, I'm sure you are right - the success (if you want to call it that) of the progressives will inevitably lead to a reinvigorated conservative movement, and the pendulum will swing back again.

barfo

 

[barfo]

This is not an attempt to sway anyone's vote (I think it's a fait accompli that Trump loses at this point) I just think there's some important things to think about with respect to suggestibility, tribalism, plus decorum and civility in discourse (or lack thereof). Maybe the shrill, demonizing, black and white arguments of identity politics and the internet age makes civility in politics impossible? If so what then? What's the end game? What kind of world are we making for ourselves?

If Mags comes back in November and says, yeah, I kind of went crazy there for a year, but I'm over it and want to get back to normal life, then maybe there is a chance that we return to our regularly scheduled program.

If Mags comes back and tells us the big mistake in 2016 was nominating Trump instead of Alex Jones, then it's likely we are going to continue the downward spiral.

Basically, Mags is my groundhog.

barfo

 

[GriLtCheeZ]

Dangerous idiots: how the liberal media elite failed working-class Americans
Trump supporters are not the caricatures journalists depict – and native Kansan Sarah Smarsh sets out to correct what newsrooms get wrong

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/oct/13/liberal-media-bias-working-class-americans

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

It's everywhere not just Canada and it's fucking astounding. Literally blows my mind. Literally if you do not conform you are an outcast. It's the quickest way to a NWO I've ever seen.

There is a guy at the gym wearing the brightest Laker shirt I've ever seen. I'm personally offended. I should go scream at him for 20 minutes.

 

[e_blazer]

Dangerous idiots: how the liberal media elite failed working-class Americans
Trump supporters are not the caricatures journalists depict – and native Kansan Sarah Smarsh sets out to correct what newsrooms get wrong

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/oct/13/liberal-media-bias-working-class-americans

Great article. Thanks for the link.

 

[blue32]

It literally does not blow your mind.

I mean if it could do that literally maybe I'd have a different outlook! Haha

There is a guy at the gym wearing the brightest Laker shirt I've ever seen. I'm personally offended. I should go scream at him for 20 minutes.

Quick! Retreat to your safe space grab your emotional support animal, and call your hurt feelings counselor !!!!

 

[barfo]

Amendment to my earlier comment: maybe there are two groups (let's call them "baskets") of Trump voters: anti-Hillary voters/voters for GOP laundry, and voters for Trump. There is presumably a lot of overlap, but for the future of the party, there is a huge difference between someone who is voting for Trump because he's the GOP nominee, and someone voting for Trump because he's Trump.

I don't see a lot of members of the GOP laundry basket here at S2, but clearly they do exist. I'm going to guess maybe half of Trump's supporters are in that camp?

barfo

 

[Rastapopoulos]

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

I mean if it could do that literally maybe I'd have a different outlook! Haha



Quick! Retreat to your safe space grab your emotional support animal, and call your hurt feelings counselor !!!!

The thing that gets me when I watch these youtube videos is the great difference between us. I could just go up and punch the Laker fan and tell him not to ever wear it again. People would intervene of course because it would just be me.


These screeching kids aren't able to fight so they form large groups of screamers. What they need to realize is that there are large groups of people that don't agree with them. Screaming escalates things, nobody needs that.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

 

[Rastapopoulos]

 

[Rastapopoulos]

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

It is so genuinely impartial of you to take the words of a crazy person and run with it.

The last time I saw a single story about voter intimidation it was New Black Panthers in Philly.

Let's see what happens this time before we act like Trump Klansmen are going to be out in full force.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Dangerous idiots: how the liberal media elite failed working-class Americans
Trump supporters are not the caricatures journalists depict – and native Kansan Sarah Smarsh sets out to correct what newsrooms get wrong

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/oct/13/liberal-media-bias-working-class-americans

This is not entirely news (and the author has a serious chip on her shoulder about "flyover country"). Apparently the #1 feature shared by Trump fans is not class but authoritarianism. "I alone can fix it" is what resonates.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

We take Trump, @magnifier661, @MarAzul, @MARIS61 and the other armed Trump fanatics and we send them to Cuba! They fight communism and create an island paradise.

 

[GriLtCheeZ]

This is not entirely news (and the author has a serious chip on her shoulder about "flyover country"). Apparently the #1 feature shared by Trump fans is not class but authoritarianism. "I alone can fix it" is what resonates.

Interesting stuff, thanks for the link.

This bit from the article you linked to, sums it up pretty well:

"The candidate has confounded conventional expectations this primary season because those expectations are based on an oversimplified caricature of the electorate in general and his supporters in particular."

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Also this: "Taking Trump voters’ concerns seriously means listening to what they’re actually saying"

So what is driving Trump supporters? In the general election, the story is pretty simple: What’s driving support for Trump is that he is the Republican nominee, a little fewer than half of voters always vote for Republicans, and Trump is getting most of those voters.

In the primary, though, the story was, as my colleague Zack Beauchamp has explained at length, almost entirely about racial resentment. There’s a wide array of data to back this up.

 

[riverman]

We take Trump, @magnifier661, @MarAzul, @MARIS61 and the other armed Trump fanatics and we send them to Cuba! They fight communism and create an island paradise.

I was thinking give them Texas and let them conquer Mexico and Central America...cheaper labor for their companies and you can pay off any govt official and everyone has guns....