Why does Toronto have a better record than us?

[e_blazer]

The very next line:

"Toronto's supporting cast is a little better than ours, but not enough to explain away the consistent disparity in records."

If our back court's overall impact is comparable to Toronto's, then our records should be very similar based on the respective supporting casts. Toronto has been significantly better than us during the tenure of those lineups, however.



The box scores tend to show Dame with a better stat line but CJ with a better +/-. How good we are with one or the other court tends to track well with how we've done when Dame was out with injury.

Sorry, but that's not a logical conclusion. There are three other players on the court at any given time for a given team. Toronto's are consistently better than ours.

 

[e_blazer]

Statistics rarely capture team-oriented pictures. It's the back court's responsibility for getting the rest of the players involved, and whether it's the fault of CJ/Dame or the abilities of their teammates, we've done quite poorly in that regard.

And there's the defense... No matter how much our back court has improved, they're nowhere near the level of Toronto's.

I'll agree there, although it's time to start giving Dame some credit for his significantly better defense this year. CJ? Not so much.

 

[e_blazer]

Statistics rarely capture team-oriented pictures. It's the back court's responsibility for getting the rest of the players involved, and whether it's the fault of CJ/Dame or the abilities of their teammates, we've done quite poorly in that regard.

And that line really annoys me. It implies that the respective front courts are comparable in terms of ability to finish a play. How many times has Dame or CJ delivered a great pass to a teammate only to have them blow a layup or open shot? You can only get an assist when the teammate finishes what you've set up.

 

[riverman]

How many times has Dame or CJ delivered a great pass to a teammate only to have them blow a layup or open shot?

Dame way more than CJ....but it's a valid pt about assists...CJ passed better last two games I noticed...the defensive improvement by this team doesn't get much credit this season but it's a big leap.....CJ is a bright guy....he'll figure it out..Dame has it already

 

[Mediocre Man]

crap, I was going to say that.

About once a decade MM & I are in agreement.

Way more than you know

 

[speeds]

Definitely helps that the East is more volatile.

I terms of personnel I think it's less to do with Toronto's "other" starters and more to do with consistent bench play.

 

[handiman]

Sorry, but that's not a logical conclusion. There are three other players on the court at any given time for a given team. Toronto's are consistently better than ours.

I don't see their #3-12 lineup being significantly better than ours. Swap our supporting cast with theirs and I think both teams retain similar records. You may not agree with the premise, but that doesn't make the conclusion illogical.

And that line really annoys me. It implies that the respective front courts are comparable in terms of ability to finish a play.

Did you skip over the part where I said, "whether it's the fault of CJ/Dame or the abilities of their teammates"?

 

[riverman]

Definitely helps that the East is more volatile.

I terms of personnel I think it's less to do with Toronto's "other" starters and more to do with consistent bench play.

I think when you factor in we lost 4 games by a total of about 9 pts early and lost other close ones...I don't think the Raptors are that much deeper..but I do think they have better chemistry on offense than we show this season

 

[e_blazer]

I don't see their #3-12 lineup being significantly better than ours. Swap our supporting cast with theirs and I think both teams retain similar records. You may not agree with the premise, but that doesn't make the conclusion illogical.

I think that's a pretty tough position to back up. The Raptors other 3 starters are:

Ibaka (13.7 PPG/16.3 PER)
Valencunias (11.2 PPG/20.6 PER)
Miles (9.9 PPG/ 15 PER)
Bench scoring production is an average of 48 PPG.

For the Blazers, you have:

Aminu (9.8 PPG/13.3 PER)
Nurkic (14.8 PPG/15 PER)
Turner (7.8 PPG/8.2 PER)
Bench scoring production is an average of 40.5 PPG.

While I'm not a big believer in PER, it's pretty tough to argue that only having one other starter who's even rated average in that stat is not a good thing. Every starter on the Raptor's squad is rated average or better.

Did you skip over the part where I said, "whether it's the fault of CJ/Dame or the abilities of their teammates"?

Actually, I did initially skip over that part. Sorry about that.

IIRC, you're in the trade CJ camp? Perhaps that's coloring your thoughts about the relative strengths of the Raptors' and Blazers' back courts. I think that they're pretty darned close in overall capability. I think the primary reason that the Raptors have the better record is that their other starters are better/more experienced than ours. If I could replace McCollum with DeRozan, I would do it simply because of the size and experience advantage. I think we both know that's not happening.

 

[handiman]

I think that's a pretty tough position to back up. The Raptors other 3 starters are:

Ibaka (13.7 PPG/16.3 PER)
Valencunias (11.2 PPG/20.6 PER)
Miles (9.9 PPG/ 15 PER)
Bench scoring production is an average of 48 PPG.

For the Blazers, you have:

Aminu (9.8 PPG/13.3 PER)
Nurkic (14.8 PPG/15 PER)
Turner (7.8 PPG/8.2 PER)
Bench scoring production is an average of 40.5 PPG.

But, to be fair, how many people here think that's our best lineup? Bench scoring is a better metric, but the '80s Celtics teams showed you can make the bench a near non-issue if need be. The bench strength is generally situational, so I'm not sure I place a lot of value on its averages.

IIRC, you're in the trade CJ camp? Perhaps that's coloring your thoughts about the relative strengths of the Raptors' and Blazers' back courts.

Yes and no. I was one of the earliest proponents of breaking up the redundant back court. As extremely unpopular as the position was, I felt the best move was to keep CJ and trade Dame for a king's ransom. Keep the player just as good, possibly better, and move the one with more trade value. You might recall I said something to the effect of, if you're not at least willing to ask the question (which to trade), you already got the answer wrong.

It's only recently that I've started feeling CJ needs to be traded. I think there's a fracture within the team, but they're too professional a bunch of guys to air dirty laundry. Dame and CJ are Public Relations personified.

So no, my thoughts on trading CJ don't affect my opinion of our back court vs Toronto's. What is relevant is my long-held belief that management hitched its wagon to a sinking ship (how's that for a mixed metaphor?), and Portland fans are too emotional to allow the right decision to be made. I can't really bring myself to give a damn about the highs and lows of this inconsistent team until they fix that situation and assemble a sensible lineup.

 

[JDC]

Masai Ujiri is the reason. His track record with them has been nearly flawless.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/executives/ujirima99x.html

Whiffing on Caboclo and giving up too much in the Carroll dump may be the only strikes against him.

 

[riverman]

Toronto has their best player at our weakest position...Demar Derozan is a bit better than Evan Turner

 

[Strenuus]

Toronto has their best player at our weakest position...Demar Derozan is a bit better than Evan Turner

Demar is a shooting guard.

 

[KingSpeed]

Toronto only a game behind the Celtics in the standings. Could this be Toronto's year? They're playing great. They lost to Warriors twice but both games were very close. I could get behind a Toronto title run if we're eliminated. They're an underdog with a real chance. NO ONE is talking about them as a contender.

 

[Pinwheel1]

We need to bump the thread about Derozan from 2 years.....

 

[jlprk]

Why does Miami have a better record than ours?

Starting SG: a #40 draft pick
Starting SF: undrafted, 6-7 only 200 pounds

http://www.espn.com/nba/team/depth/_/name/mia/miami-heat

This is what I mean when I say, it'd be easy for Olshey to get a shooting, dribbling SF if he'd sacrifice size. There are mediocre 6-6 SGs who'd be much better at SF, if teammates could cover on defense.

 

[KingSpeed]

Miami is only one game ahead of us.

 

[SwissBlazer]

Miami is only one game ahead of us.

In a MUCH weaker conference.

 

[stampedehero]

1/30/18: Refs were given free food in Canada.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Toronto only a game behind the Celtics in the standings. Could this be Toronto's year? They're playing great. They lost to Warriors twice but both games were very close. I could get behind a Toronto title run if we're eliminated. They're an underdog with a real chance. NO ONE is talking about them as a contender.

Well there it is. Pencil them in.

My favorite line is "IF we're eliminated "