Has this country ever been more divided? Y/N

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1 Eye Jack

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Obviously back in the civil war days but seems like this country has become very divided. Scarey time for the United States with the economy, Russia flexing their muscles again, Iran, and terrorist.
 
Obviously back in the civil war days but seems like this country has become very divided. Scarey time for the United States with the economy, Russia flexing their muscles again, Iran, and terrorist.


8 years of calling the President every name in the book and 8 years of attaching every ill in the country to him tends to do that.

I'll blame the major media the most, however. Their repeated failures to investigate both sides in the aisle has led to a GOP inferiority complex and a Democratic base that feels their leaders don't do wrong.

In other words, party before country, which is a very scary scenario.
 
But doesn't it make sense that the country will seem most divided during election time. Let's see what it is like 6-9 months after Obama is president . . . I mean after the election.
 
8 years of calling the President every name in the book and 8 years of attaching every ill in the country to him tends to do that.

Yes...why DID Republicans do that to Clinton? Really divided the country.

That's what you were referring to, right? ;)
 
"In other words, party before country, which is a very scary scenario."

I agree completely and was exactly my point. We as a nation are basing every decision on how it affects us politically. It's not longer whats best for the country it's what's best for me.
 
Yes...why DID Republicans do that to Clinton? Really divided the country.

That's what you were referring to, right? ;)


I think you are forgetting 1994-98, when Clinton (with Dick Morris) and Trent Lott passed quite a bit of compromised legislation.

The close election of 2000 exacerbated an already divided political climate, and the GOP stupidly trying to impeach Clinton was the catalyst to start the ball rolling. Luckily, the GOPs in the Senate had some common sense and stopped that madness. Since these events, things have increased exponentially.

So here we are...
 
"In other words, party before country, which is a very scary scenario."

I agree completely and was exactly my point. We as a nation are basing every decision on how it affects us politically. It's not longer whats best for the country it's what's best for me.

True
 
"In other words, party before country, which is a very scary scenario."

I agree completely and was exactly my point. We as a nation are basing every decision on how it affects us politically. It's not longer whats best for the country it's what's best for me.


This is both sides, by the way. The reason I blame the Dems for the lack of passing their own bail-out bill is, well, it's their bill, they can pass it, and Bush will sign it. The only reason they won't do it is voter backlash, yet they have over the years destroyed Bush to the point that they won't even pass this bill solely because Bush agrees with it. Either that or they know it's a turd and want some cover for when things fail.
 
In demographics there has been some research to suggest that given the high degree of mobility in our society and the increasingly impersonal nature of communication (talking with like minded people on message boards or chat rooms for instance), people seem to have fewer "cross-cutting cleavages;" in effect we have less contact with people of differing backgrounds and opinions than we might have had in the past.

I say we blame the internet.
 
I think you are forgetting 1994-98, when Clinton (with Dick Morris) and Trent Lott passed quite a bit of compromised legislation.

I'm not forgetting that. The anger and tension is almost entirely in non-politicians. The politicians in DC play political games, but from what I've read, there's precious little vitriol between them on a personal level.

I am referring to Republican citizens and media personalities, who spent 8 years ripping Clinton. Exactly as Democrat citizens and media personalities have spent the last 8 years ripping Bush.

In fact, I remember quite a few Republican media personalities (like Sean Hannity, for example) claim, in 2003 or 2004, that it was unpatriotic not to line up behind your President in times of war. However, he ripped Clinton unmercifully when Clinton involved the US in the war in Kosovo.

The close election of 2000 exacerbated an already divided political climate, and the GOP stupidly trying to impeach Clinton was a big catalyst. Since these events, things have increased exponentially.

So here we are...

I agree entirely. I think both sides have been complicit in amping up the hostility.
 
Every superpower in the history of the world has fallen, is it our turn? BTW- History repeats itself......so we'd be fooling ourselves if we think it can't happen to us.
 
Can we all sing a round of Kumbayah?

Let's just start training camp and I'll be happy. The good part about an OT forum like this is that a large majority of the posters are knowledgeable. The bad part about an OT forum like this is that a large majority of the posters are knowledgeable. ;)
 
8 years of calling the President every name in the book and 8 years of attaching every ill in the country to him tends to do that.

I'll blame the major media the most, however. Their repeated failures to investigate both sides in the aisle has led to a GOP inferiority complex and a Democratic base that feels their leaders don't do wrong.

In other words, party before country, which is a very scary scenario.

I've been following politics since the 1960s. The '68 convention was in my back yard, basically.

The divisiveness was always there, but it took a huge change for the worse in the 1980s when the Democrats went on witch hunts, and it's only gotten worse as more of the old congresspeople have retired and been replaced with more partisan replacements. Witch hunts? Bork, Tower, Clarence Thomas, and W to a degree never seen before (he was illegitimate months before he took office).

The republicans never took the high road. They went after Clinton to the point of impeachment on the wrong issue (how about taking illegal campaign money for favors from the red chinese?), and harassed him from day 1 to the last day.

I would also say that the abortion debate in the 1980s was so intense it may have been pretty close to being as divisive as slavery.
 
Every superpower in the history of the world has fallen, is it our turn? BTW- History repeats itself......so we'd be fooling ourselves if we think it can't happen to us.

If Obama wins and the Fairness Doctrine is implemented again, and we start to see an imbalanced way of prosecuting violators, I can almost guarantee that some citizens won't stand for it, and even more concerning, I'm guessing there will be quite a few in military leadership who may see an opportunity to expand their power before being diminished.

We'd be naive to think that supressing the right to freely communicate ideas and criticisms won't have some serious consequences from those muted. These things have happened in other countries, and the outcome is rarely positive.
 
10052~God-Bless-America-Posters.jpg
 
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We have been more divided before this, but the internet lets every blowhard be heard these days.
 
Yes, we have been more divided. The Civil War comes to mind.
 
What about the McCarthy era?

We were pretty freakin paranoid then.

JFK and RFK were quite involved on the McCarthy side of things. That would be bipartisan, hence not "divided" - you agree?

google "kennedy mccarthy" and see what turns up :)
 
JFK and RFK were quite involved on the McCarthy side of things. That would be bipartisan, hence not "divided" - you agree?

google "kennedy mccarthy" and see what turns up :)

amazing denny, you old muckracker you. :cheers:
 
amazing denny, you old muckracker you. :cheers:
I consider myself something of an amateur historian.

The whole left-wing media bias of today and McCarthyism to a large degree can be traced to the days of FDR and WW II.

You see, the USSR wasn't our ally at first, but when Hitler opened the Eastern Front against them, they did become our ally. FDR encouraged Hollywood to add to their propaganda film production films about how great our Russian allies and their society were. Something like "enemy of my enemy is my friend" in action.

Hollywood's problem is that the war ended and they didn't stop.

McCarthyism was a horrible experience for the country, but McCarthy wasn't wrong about many things. The govt. was infiltrated by communists, and many people he accused of being communist were (at least at some point).

JFK ran to the right of Nixon in 1960, claiming Ike/Nixon had neglected the military. He was an avowed anti-communist, and a cold war warrior. Elected, he pushed for 6% of GDP for the military budget (today it's 3% or less), and for across the board tax cuts, and for most of the elements of the Bush Doctrine (see his most famous inauguration speech). In short, he was as much a conservative as Reagan.
 
Segregation?

Google for "freedom riders" and read about the Kennedy Administration's response and actions.

FWIW, Ike nationalized the national guard in Little Rock Arkansas to integrate the high school there.
 
I consider myself something of an amateur historian.

The whole left-wing media bias of today and McCarthyism to a large degree can be traced to the days of FDR and WW II.

You see, the USSR wasn't our ally at first, but when Hitler opened the Eastern Front against them, they did become our ally. FDR encouraged Hollywood to add to their propaganda film production films about how great our Russian allies and their society were. Something like "enemy of my enemy is my friend" in action. Hollywood's problem is that the war ended and they didn't stop.

Wait a second. Definitely, this was true during the war, with films like "Song of Russia" overtly propagandizing in favor of our temporary alliance with the Soviets. (Always loved this old poster, although I'm pretty sure it was actually put out by the Canadian rather than American government.)

That said, how did "Hollywood not stop" after the war ended? Obviously there was an active CP organization in Los Angeles -- one of the most active in the US, in fact -- and there were secret Communists active in the film industry. But even the Holllywood Ten trials couldn't cite any actual evidence of pro-Communist or pro-Soviet materials making it into films produced *after* World War II. They just ranted and raved about "Song of Russia" and whatnot... and yeah, it was a pro-Stalin propaganda film, but one made because it was 1944 and Stalin was our buddy at the time. Even though a handful of CP members did keep working in Hollywood, it's a gigantic exaggeration to say they were producing pro-Soviet propaganda films. Screenwrite Dalton Trumbo was probably the most prominent of the Hollywood Ten... but was "Spartacus" Soviet propaganda? "Exodus"? "Roman Holiday"? Only if you're deeply paranoid.


McCarthyism was a horrible experience for the country, but McCarthy wasn't wrong about many things. The govt. was infiltrated by communists, and many people he accused of being communist were (at least at some point).
I guess it depends on your definition of "infiltrated". Were there CP members in the government? Yes. Were there many? No. Were the people on Joe McCarthy's famous "lists" actually Communists? Almost always, no. Was McCarthy an incredibly reckless, serially untruthful alcoholic? Yes.

JFK ran to the right of Nixon in 1960, claiming Ike/Nixon had neglected the military. He was an avowed anti-communist, and a cold war warrior. Elected, he pushed for 6% of GDP for the military budget (today it's 3% or less), and for across the board tax cuts, and for most of the elements of the Bush Doctrine (see his most famous inauguration speech). In short, he was as much a conservative as Reagan.
This is quite right, although only in terms of foreign policy, of course.

SR
 
Song of Russia, North Star, Mission to Moscow, Gung Ho, Action in the North Atlantic were all propaganda films made in Hollywood for FDR before 1946.

"Caught" (1949) was one of those films Hollywood didn't stop making. "The Way We Were" (1985) Streisand/Redford is a more recent example.

A good read:
http://www.reason.com/news/show/27732.html

As for JFK, how are military spending as a % of GDP and tax cuts not domestic issues?
 
Song of Russia, North Star, Mission to Moscow, Gung Ho, Action in the North Atlantic were all propaganda films made in Hollywood for FDR before 1946.

"Caught" (1949) was one of those films Hollywood didn't stop making. "The Way We Were" (1985) Streisand/Redford is a more recent example.

A good read:
http://www.reason.com/news/show/27732.html

As for JFK, how are military spending as a % of GDP and tax cuts not domestic issues?

You really think "The Way We Were" was Soviet propaganda? Wow.

Of course, there have been plenty of Hollywood films sympathetic to various figures on the left. ("Reds" obviously comes to mind, among others.) But there have also been plenty (many more, I'd say) that turned Communists into cartoon bad guys ("Rambo", anyone?). Not that I have a problem with that -- only Nazis outrank Communists as ideal candidates for cartoon bad guys in movies -- but I think anyone who seriously argues that Hollywood was a source of Red propaganda after WWII is seriously misguided.

As for JFK, I think his hawkish anticommunism was very much of a piece with Reagan's. But I don't think their tax politics had much in common, even though they both cut taxes. There's a big difference between cutting taxes when the top marginal rate to 70% and cutting it to 28%. And JFK's tax cuts didn't only accrue to the top 20%.

SR
 
You really think "The Way We Were" was Soviet propaganda? Wow.

Of course, there have been plenty of Hollywood films sympathetic to various figures on the left. ("Reds" obviously comes to mind, among others.) But there have also been plenty (many more, I'd say) that turned Communists into cartoon bad guys ("Rambo", anyone?). Not that I have a problem with that -- only Nazis outrank Communists as ideal candidates for cartoon bad guys in movies -- but I think anyone who seriously argues that Hollywood was a source of Red propaganda after WWII is seriously misguided.

When the USSR fell, there was a flood of documents from the KGB and other sources made available that we never had access to before. These documents named names and dollar amounts and objectives and that sort of thing. The Rosenbergs were guilty. Alger Hiss absolutely was a spy. There were many others as well. In Hollywood, the CPA (Communist Party) was outright funded by the USSR and Communist International (CommInt) with the express mission of spreading propaganda. Again, these Soviet/Stalin era documents show it, as well as Stalin's belief in using propaganda. The propaganda was specifically ordered to both promote the USSR and to be anti-american. There are numerous examples of each (M*A*S*H for example, written by Ring Lardner Jr.) that were produced or written by those blacklisted. In fact, the McCarthy and HUAC committees put those blacklisted in a position where the Russians/Communists left them exposed with zero support.

There are modern examples, too, including Gore's film and Michael Moore's films, that are anti-caplitalist and anti-american (at least some of us see them that way). I wouldn't say these guys are actual communists (or sympathizers), though they are likely to have been influenced by earlier works by those that were.

There were pro-american films, as well, but all the early ones were extremely low budget and poorly produced (deliberately). The writers had the ability to squash these kinds of things.

I'm not at all saying McCarthyism was a good thing or that he was a good guy. It's just a myth that he was wrong about it all.


As for JFK, I think his hawkish anticommunism was very much of a piece with Reagan's. But I don't think their tax politics had much in common, even though they both cut taxes. There's a big difference between cutting taxes when the top marginal rate to 70% and cutting it to 28%. And JFK's tax cuts didn't only accrue to the top 20%.

SR
It wasn't an Obama style tax cut, "targetted" at the middle and lower classes. He, like Reagan, cut ALL the tax rates, including the top bracket (for the rich!).

http://www.slate.com/id/2093947/

Many liberals disliked Kennedy's plan on grounds of equity. Leon Keyserling, an economist who had served Harry Truman, lamented that the richest 12 percent of Americans would get 45 percent of the benefits. Michael Harrington, the scholar of poverty, called the plan "reactionary Keynesianism." The AFL-CIO came out against it.

http://www.amazon.com/Red-Star-Over-Hollywood-Colonys/dp/1893554961

Red Star Over Hollywood: The Film Colony's Long Romance with the Left (Hardcover)

The McCarthy era is generally portrayed as one of the darkest times in American history, and those who faced blacklisting in Hollywood have been lauded as heroes. Through ground-breaking new research and the reliance on original source materials, the Radoshes have compiled a thorough re-examination of the enchantment by some in the film industry with the Communist Party, and their betrayal by that very same party.

The Radoshes describe the infatuation of "the Hollywood Party" from its roots in the 1930s, when several visited the Soviet Union. They demonstrate that, far from being innocent, the "Hollywood Ten" were committed Communists, who used and abused free-speech supporters (like Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall) for their own ends. The Communist Party, in turn, cynically used the "Ten" for its own ends -- trotting them out to speak at unrelated left-wing events for years, which prevented the Ten from individually rehabilitating their images and obtaining work. The authors also describe the way the CP line was inserted in several films, most notoriously, "Mission to Moscow." This film, designed to turn the views of a skeptical American public toward the USSR during World War II, whitewashes Stalin's purge trials of the 1930s, where many truly innocent were tortured into confessing and executed. Perhaps most interesting is the difficult path faced by those who broke with the Party and either "named names" or walked a fine line to avoid naming names. For many, being seen as an informer was worse than preventing and exposing genuine Communist infiltration.

If I have any criticisms of the book, it is that the Radoshes did not take their exploration of the film colony's long romance with the left through the Vietnam War years and today. While the blacklist years were seminal, many in Hollywood contine to lean left even after the fall of the USSR, and take almost reflexively anti-Bush positions today. We are left to wonder what the leftist fathers passed on to their sons. Perhaps the authors will address this issue in a subsequent book. In the meantime, "Red Star Over Hollywood" is well worth reading.
 
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http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0300061838/

The Secret World of American Communism (Annals of Communism Series) (Hardcover)

As the authors make clear in the introduction, this book presents only a handful of thousands of documents regarding American communism which they found in ex-Soviet archives.The authors note that most scholorship of the fifties, sixties and seventies painted a fairly accurate picture of American communism. According to this picture, well documented here, the Soviet Union used the American communist parties as tools for Soviet foriegn policy. To that end, the Soviet Union funded the parties, controlled their public policy, directed undergound and subversive activities, and used the parties to recruit and control spies.

Much of the prose is rather dry. The authors present primary document after primary document, with limited commentary interspersed between them.

While some people may not like the picture this book paints of what Lenin called "useful fools" (Westerners who naively advanced the Soviet's imperialistic ambitions) they can not deny the evidence.

Finally, the brevity of this account makes it a good primer on the secretive nature of an organization dedicated to an ideology bent on undermining individual freedom. However, it should not serve as the sole source of information on the subject.
 
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