[Feigen's Blog] A Question about All Those Rockets Questions

Trip · Sep 28, 2007

"Do you think Chuck Hayes could give us 14pts & 6rebs in a starting role without Yao Ming or Tracy Mcgrady?"

Lol, I don't think Juwan could.

ROCK4LIFE · Sep 30, 2007

[quote name='foo82']

[quote name='Rock4life']

[quote name='foo82']

[quote name='Rock4life']

[quote name='foo82']

Juwan pretty much does nothing but shoot midrange jumpers.

He's not known to be a good defender. Hayes is a much better help defender than Juwan is, and he is a better overall defender as well. Juwan rarely contests shots, and you will notice Hayes contests almost every shot. Hayes may be undersized, but power counts for a lot. If you don't have position, you are forced to shoot uncomfortable shots. Hayes is very strong, and he forces players out of their comfort zone. He is also a much better rebounder and a much better finisher than Howard.

The only time where height counts is for contesting and blocking shots. Tell me. How many shots does Juwan block? Besides shooting midrange jumpers, what does Juwan contribute?

I'd hardly consider Hayes outmatched every night. Do you even watch the games? Even the Jazz fans think that Hayes is very underrated and did a damn good job on Okur.



Also, it doesn't seem like you understand or play basketball much. If you are posting up, I would much rather have a taller guy guard me, than a stronger guy and by tall I mean like 3 inches taller (not Yao Ming tall).

[/QUOTE]

Ur wrong....Chuck Hayes is a utility player. Plays with alot of energy, makes hustle plays, and does the dirtywork. But that's about it. The way ur comparing the two is from a biased point of view. Offensivley, Hayes has absolutley no game whatsoever. Zero, Zip, Nada. The only way he scores is if he's WIDE open under the rim. If anybody is remotley close he's toast. If he gets fouled, he's gonna brick the free throws. Now if you wanna compare him to Juwan offensivley it isn't even close. I'm sure you understand that. Defensivley at this point, Chuck gets the nod. Juwan's not as young as Chuck and doesnt bring his energy. But the gap isn't NEARLY as big as the offensive gap between both players. Juwan can occaisonally play some good D. He also can rebound when he wants too. Juwan's role on the team was much bigger than Chuck's, so I'm no sure why you'd even try to compare the two. I think it's pretty much obvious who the overrall better player is.



NOTE: How can you brag on Chuck's defense without mentioning how foul-prone he's consistently been?

[/QUOTE]

I would hardly consider Hayes WIDE OPEN. He constantly plays off the cut to the basket and is very consistent in his finishing abilities. Despite what you think, he is one of the better finishers on the team. It's hard to be wide open underneath because it will be giving him free reign for offensive boards. Hayes moves constantly and and gets open looks off the screens he sets for Tmac by cutting. Offense does not mean just shooting. It also consists of getting offensive boards, which Hayes is adept at doing. Physical players tend to be more foul-proned. It is because that Hayes contests everything is why his fouls are up there.

You were arguing on who is one-dimensional. Let me ask you this, besides shooting mid-range jumpshots, what else does Juwan do well?

Things that Hayes does well that you can't deny:

Defense, rebounds, hustle plays.

Things that Juwan does

Mid-range jump shots



So tell me who is more one-dimensional?



[/QUOTE]

Juwan did alot of things well, in a bigger role for us than Chuck had. We all know he had midrange game, but he also had a nice jump hook. If you watched him play, he was never a bad defender. I don't quite know where you got that from. In the games against San Antonio, he guarded Duncan pretty well. In his time here he had some nice defensive games. His foot speed wasnt as good as Chuck's, but Juwan had veteran tricks that he used against opponents that occaisonally worked. He also had some nice rebounding games. Especially in the playoffs against Utah. At this point in there careers Juwan is overrall the better player. Chuck Hayes could NEVER fill in for Yao and step up like Juwan did for us during thosestretches. It seems you forgot how well Juwan played when we had injuries to our main players. While we're here, let me ask you.............

Do you think Chuck Hayes could give us 14pts & 6rebs in a starting role without Yao Ming or Tracy Mcgrady?

[/QUOTE]

You mentioned his jump hook. His jump hook is mediocre at best. It's pretty much the only post up move he has. It isn't very consistent which is why he doesnt use it often. You haven't even mentioned why Juwan wouldnt be considered one-dimensional. He doesn't really excel at anything. You mentioned his defense isn't all that bad.....but it isn't all that great either. At best, he's a mediocre defender. You even use phrases like "occasionally work" and "some nice games" which shows that even you admit he is not consistently good defender. Your arugment at "this point in their careers" is completely ridiculous and not even related to the argument at hand. Hayes is only in his second "real" year. As for stepping in for Yao? Where the hell did you pull that from. Hayes was never meant to step in for Yao, but compliment him. Juwan's role was to provide scoring off the bench (which he failed miserably at during the playoffs, which is contributing factor to why we lost), just like Hayes role is to fight for loose rebounds (so Yao doesn't have to), play defense in the post to match up against stronger opponents, and all-around hustle.

As for this statement.

"Do you think Chuck Hayes could give us 14pts & 6rebs in a starting role without Yao Ming or Tracy Mcgrady?"

It is completely irrelavent. This isn't any other team. This is Yao's and Tmac's. I have been arguing for ages that Hayes is a better fit with Yao and Tmac, and I have also stated multiple times that Hayes would not fit as well in starting role on any other team. It is because we have two HUGE offensive forces that we actually benefit from having Hayes out on the court in Rockets uniform.



[/QUOTE]

Why is my question irrevelant? If ur statement that Chuck Hayes is indeed a better overallplayer than Juwan Howard is, then I'm sure Hayes could've filled in for Yao and produced double-figure points and a adequate number of rebounds in a BIGGER role as Juwan did. Juwan stepped up and pretty much saved our season when Yao went down. Tmac played fantastic, but we still needed production from Juwan and he played HUGE for us. Could Chuck Hayes have done that? Could he have started for Yao and had the ability to put up better numbers than Juwan did in that same role? If not, then you conceed that Juwan is the better player and Hayes is only better in his specific role for the Rockets (which is hustle and energy).

durvasa · Sep 30, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rock4life)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Why is my question irrevelant? If ur statement that Chuck Hayes is indeed a better overallplayer than Juwan Howard is, then I'm sure Hayes could've filled in for Yao and produced double-figure points and a adequate number of rebounds in a BIGGER role as Juwan did.

</div>

That doesn't follow. He could have provided more rebounding and better defense. But when Mutombo was already filling in for Yao, that wasn't as much of a priority as scoring.

Juwan's value shot up and Chuck's went down when Yao was out of the lineup. And when Yao returned, the opposite happened. Actually, let's just compare Juwan's stats while Yao was out to Chuck's stats when Yao returned. Juwan played 32 mpg for when Yao was out, which he should absolutely be credited for. All the other stats are "per 30 minutes".

<table width="670" cellspacing="3" cellpadding="3" border="3">
<caption>Juwan during Yao's Injury VS Chuck after Yao returned
</caption>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td align="center"></td>
<td align="center">min/g</td>
<td align="center">pts/30</td>
<td align="center">TS%</td>
<td align="center">reb/30</td>
<td align="center">ast/30</td>
<td align="center">TO/30</td>
<td align="center">stl/30</td>
<td align="center">blk/30</td>
<td align="center">PF/30</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Juwan (12/23 - 3/3)</td>
<td align="center">32.2</td>
<td align="center">12.4</td>
<td align="center">52.4%</td>
<td align="center">6.1</td>
<td align="center">2.3</td>
<td align="center">1.7</td>
<td align="center">0.4</td>
<td align="center">0.1</td>
<td align="center">2.7</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Chuck (12/23 - 3/3)</td>
<td align="center">19.5</td>
<td align="center">7.0</td>
<td align="center">56.4%</td>
<td align="center">8.3</td>
<td align="center">0.9</td>
<td align="center">1.1</td>
<td align="center">1.1</td>
<td align="center">0.4</td>
<td align="center">5.2</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Chuck (3/3 - 4/18)</td>
<td align="center">25.7</td>
<td align="center">9.1</td>
<td align="center">64.2%</td>
<td align="center">9.6</td>
<td align="center">0.9</td>
<td align="center">0.9</td>
<td align="center">1.6</td>
<td align="center">0.3</td>
<td align="center">4.6</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Juwan (3/3 - 4/18)</td>
<td align="center">24.1</td>
<td align="center">10.6</td>
<td align="center">50.6%</td>
<td align="center">6.9</td>
<td align="center">1.6</td>
<td align="center">1.4</td>
<td align="center">0.4</td>
<td align="center">0.2</td>
<td align="center">3.2</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>






Per 30 minutes of action, can you really say that Juwan's numbers when Yao was injured are clearly better than Chuck's numbers after Yao returned? In general, I'd rather have a 9 pts, 9 reb type player who's extremely efficient and forces a lot of turnovers, compared to the 14 pts, 6 reb you talk about. That's something Chuck is capable of giving a team in a starting role. Not Juwan.

foo82 · Oct 1, 2007

[quote name='Rock4life']

[quote name='foo82']

[quote name='Rock4life']

[quote name='foo82']

[quote name='Rock4life']

[quote name='foo82']

Juwan pretty much does nothing but shoot midrange jumpers.

He's not known to be a good defender. Hayes is a much better help defender than Juwan is, and he is a better overall defender as well. Juwan rarely contests shots, and you will notice Hayes contests almost every shot. Hayes may be undersized, but power counts for a lot. If you don't have position, you are forced to shoot uncomfortable shots. Hayes is very strong, and he forces players out of their comfort zone. He is also a much better rebounder and a much better finisher than Howard.

The only time where height counts is for contesting and blocking shots. Tell me. How many shots does Juwan block? Besides shooting midrange jumpers, what does Juwan contribute?

I'd hardly consider Hayes outmatched every night. Do you even watch the games? Even the Jazz fans think that Hayes is very underrated and did a damn good job on Okur.



Also, it doesn't seem like you understand or play basketball much. If you are posting up, I would much rather have a taller guy guard me, than a stronger guy and by tall I mean like 3 inches taller (not Yao Ming tall).

[/QUOTE]

Ur wrong....Chuck Hayes is a utility player. Plays with alot of energy, makes hustle plays, and does the dirtywork. But that's about it. The way ur comparing the two is from a biased point of view. Offensivley, Hayes has absolutley no game whatsoever. Zero, Zip, Nada. The only way he scores is if he's WIDE open under the rim. If anybody is remotley close he's toast. If he gets fouled, he's gonna brick the free throws. Now if you wanna compare him to Juwan offensivley it isn't even close. I'm sure you understand that. Defensivley at this point, Chuck gets the nod. Juwan's not as young as Chuck and doesnt bring his energy. But the gap isn't NEARLY as big as the offensive gap between both players. Juwan can occaisonally play some good D. He also can rebound when he wants too. Juwan's role on the team was much bigger than Chuck's, so I'm no sure why you'd even try to compare the two. I think it's pretty much obvious who the overrall better player is.



NOTE: How can you brag on Chuck's defense without mentioning how foul-prone he's consistently been?

[/QUOTE]

I would hardly consider Hayes WIDE OPEN. He constantly plays off the cut to the basket and is very consistent in his finishing abilities. Despite what you think, he is one of the better finishers on the team. It's hard to be wide open underneath because it will be giving him free reign for offensive boards. Hayes moves constantly and and gets open looks off the screens he sets for Tmac by cutting. Offense does not mean just shooting. It also consists of getting offensive boards, which Hayes is adept at doing. Physical players tend to be more foul-proned. It is because that Hayes contests everything is why his fouls are up there.

You were arguing on who is one-dimensional. Let me ask you this, besides shooting mid-range jumpshots, what else does Juwan do well?

Things that Hayes does well that you can't deny:

Defense, rebounds, hustle plays.

Things that Juwan does

Mid-range jump shots



So tell me who is more one-dimensional?



[/QUOTE]

Juwan did alot of things well, in a bigger role for us than Chuck had. We all know he had midrange game, but he also had a nice jump hook. If you watched him play, he was never a bad defender. I don't quite know where you got that from. In the games against San Antonio, he guarded Duncan pretty well. In his time here he had some nice defensive games. His foot speed wasnt as good as Chuck's, but Juwan had veteran tricks that he used against opponents that occaisonally worked. He also had some nice rebounding games. Especially in the playoffs against Utah. At this point in there careers Juwan is overrall the better player. Chuck Hayes could NEVER fill in for Yao and step up like Juwan did for us during thosestretches. It seems you forgot how well Juwan played when we had injuries to our main players. While we're here, let me ask you.............

Do you think Chuck Hayes could give us 14pts & 6rebs in a starting role without Yao Ming or Tracy Mcgrady?

[/QUOTE]

You mentioned his jump hook. His jump hook is mediocre at best. It's pretty much the only post up move he has. It isn't very consistent which is why he doesnt use it often. You haven't even mentioned why Juwan wouldnt be considered one-dimensional. He doesn't really excel at anything. You mentioned his defense isn't all that bad.....but it isn't all that great either. At best, he's a mediocre defender. You even use phrases like "occasionally work" and "some nice games" which shows that even you admit he is not consistently good defender. Your arugment at "this point in their careers" is completely ridiculous and not even related to the argument at hand. Hayes is only in his second "real" year. As for stepping in for Yao? Where the hell did you pull that from. Hayes was never meant to step in for Yao, but compliment him. Juwan's role was to provide scoring off the bench (which he failed miserably at during the playoffs, which is contributing factor to why we lost), just like Hayes role is to fight for loose rebounds (so Yao doesn't have to), play defense in the post to match up against stronger opponents, and all-around hustle.

As for this statement.

"Do you think Chuck Hayes could give us 14pts & 6rebs in a starting role without Yao Ming or Tracy Mcgrady?"

It is completely irrelavent. This isn't any other team. This is Yao's and Tmac's. I have been arguing for ages that Hayes is a better fit with Yao and Tmac, and I have also stated multiple times that Hayes would not fit as well in starting role on any other team. It is because we have two HUGE offensive forces that we actually benefit from having Hayes out on the court in Rockets uniform.



[/QUOTE]

Why is my question irrevelant? If ur statement that Chuck Hayes is indeed a better overallplayer than Juwan Howard is, then I'm sure Hayes could've filled in for Yao and produced double-figure points and a adequate number of rebounds in a BIGGER role as Juwan did. Juwan stepped up and pretty much saved our season when Yao went down. Tmac played fantastic, but we still needed production from Juwan and he played HUGE for us. Could Chuck Hayes have done that? Could he have started for Yao and had the ability to put up better numbers than Juwan did in that same role? If not, then you conceed that Juwan is the better player and Hayes is only better in his specific role for the Rockets (which is hustle and energy).

[/QUOTE]

Again, you are trying to shift the argument. You stated that Chuck Hayes was more one-dimensional than Juwan, in which he is clearly not. As to who is a better player, that is completely at the mercy of whoever you ask, and their judging criteria. This is nothing but opinion. Your question IS IRRELAVENT to the issue at hand. Hayes does not and will not start for Yao. Your arguments are completely out there. Dikembe started during that period of time in which SCORING was needed. With Yao and Tmac on the court, you no longer need Juwan, which was my argument all along.

Again, I did not say Hayes was a better player. I have never stated that. My assertions were that Hayes contributes more to the team when playing next to Yao and Tmac.

ROCK4LIFE · Oct 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (durvasa)</div><div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rock4life)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Why is my question irrevelant? If ur statement that Chuck Hayes is indeed a better overallplayer than Juwan Howard is, then I'm sure Hayes could've filled in for Yao and produced double-figure points and a adequate number of rebounds in a BIGGER role as Juwan did.

</div>

That doesn't follow. He could have provided more rebounding and better defense. But when Mutombo was already filling in for Yao, that wasn't as much of a priority as scoring.

Juwan's value shot up and Chuck's went down when Yao was out of the lineup. And when Yao returned, the opposite happened. Actually, let's just compare Juwan's stats while Yao was out to Chuck's stats when Yao returned. Juwan played 32 mpg for when Yao was out, which he should absolutely be credited for. All the other stats are "per 30 minutes".

<table cellspacing="3" cellpadding="3" width="670" border="3">
<caption>Juwan during Yao's Injury VS Chuck after Yao returned
</caption>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td align="center"></td>
<td align="center">min/g</td>
<td align="center">pts/30</td>
<td align="center">TS%</td>
<td align="center">reb/30</td>
<td align="center">ast/30</td>
<td align="center">TO/30</td>
<td align="center">stl/30</td>
<td align="center">blk/30</td>
<td align="center">PF/30</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Juwan (12/23 - 3/3)</td>
<td align="center">32.2</td>
<td align="center">12.4</td>
<td align="center">52.4%</td>
<td align="center">6.1</td>
<td align="center">2.3</td>
<td align="center">1.7</td>
<td align="center">0.4</td>
<td align="center">0.1</td>
<td align="center">2.7</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Chuck (12/23 - 3/3)</td>
<td align="center">19.5</td>
<td align="center">7.0</td>
<td align="center">56.4%</td>
<td align="center">8.3</td>
<td align="center">0.9</td>
<td align="center">1.1</td>
<td align="center">1.1</td>
<td align="center">0.4</td>
<td align="center">5.2</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Chuck (3/3 - 4/18)</td>
<td align="center">25.7</td>
<td align="center">9.1</td>
<td align="center">64.2%</td>
<td align="center">9.6</td>
<td align="center">0.9</td>
<td align="center">0.9</td>
<td align="center">1.6</td>
<td align="center">0.3</td>
<td align="center">4.6</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Juwan (3/3 - 4/18)</td>
<td align="center">24.1</td>
<td align="center">10.6</td>
<td align="center">50.6%</td>
<td align="center">6.9</td>
<td align="center">1.6</td>
<td align="center">1.4</td>
<td align="center">0.4</td>
<td align="center">0.2</td>
<td align="center">3.2</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>






Per 30 minutes of action, can you really say that Juwan's numbers when Yao was injured are clearly better than Chuck's numbers after Yao returned? In general, I'd rather have a 9 pts, 9 reb type player who's extremely efficient and forces a lot of turnovers, compared to the 14 pts, 6 reb you talk about. That's something Chuck is capable of giving a team in a starting role. Not Juwan.











</div>

But the question is "Who's the better player" and also"Which one is more one-dimensional".....Howard is CLEARY, and will alwayz be the better player overrall. And Chuck Hayes one of the most one-dimensional players in the NBA.

durvasa · Oct 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rock4life)</div><div class='quotemain'>

But the question is "Who's the better player" and also"Which one is more one-dimensional".....Howard is CLEARY, and will alwayz be the better player overrall. And Chuck Hayes one of the most one-dimensional players in the NBA.

</div>



And I've explained many, many times why I don't consider Chuck Hayes one-dimensional. As for who's the "better player", like foo82 I feel that it's an irrelevant question. What matters is which player is best suited in a particular role. If the role is "a scoring PF with an expanded offensive role in Yao's absence" then Juwan is better. If the role is "a rebounder/hustler/defender to compliment Yao and McGrady" then I think Chuck is better. You believe that Juwan's role was far more significant last season than Chuck's. I think both players played an important role on the team, and I'm not interested in debating which role was more important.

Do we understand eachother?

ROCK4LIFE · Oct 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (durvasa)</div><div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rock4life)</div><div class='quotemain'>

But the question is "Who's the better player" and also"Which one is more one-dimensional".....Howard is CLEARY, and will alwayz be the better player overrall. And Chuck Hayes one of the most one-dimensional players in the NBA.

</div>



And I've explained many, many times why I don't consider Chuck Hayes one-dimensional. As for who's the "better player", like foo82 I feel that it's an irrelevant question. What matters is which player is best suited in a particular role. If the role is "a scoring PF with an expanded offensive role in Yao's absence" then Juwan is better. If the role is "a rebounder/hustler/defender to compliment Yao and McGrady" then I think Chuck is better. You believe that Juwan's role was far more significant last season than Chuck's. I think both players played an important role on the team, and I'm not interested in debating which role was more important.

Do we understand eachother?





</div>

I partially understand. I think Chuck's role was entirely too big with JVG as coach. At best he's a 10-15minute a game player, who should be used for specific momments in the game. Definatley not in a starting role for a contender. I don't expect Chuck to have the same impact he did in last year's regular season. Expect for Jackie Butler to play some minutes

foo82 · Oct 2, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rock4life)</div><div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (durvasa)</div><div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rock4life)</div><div class='quotemain'>

But the question is "Who's the better player" and also"Which one is more one-dimensional".....Howard is CLEARY, and will alwayz be the better player overrall. And Chuck Hayes one of the most one-dimensional players in the NBA.

</div>



And I've explained many, many times why I don't consider Chuck Hayes one-dimensional. As for who's the "better player", like foo82 I feel that it's an irrelevant question. What matters is which player is best suited in a particular role. If the role is "a scoring PF with an expanded offensive role in Yao's absence" then Juwan is better. If the role is "a rebounder/hustler/defender to compliment Yao and McGrady" then I think Chuck is better. You believe that Juwan's role was far more significant last season than Chuck's. I think both players played an important role on the team, and I'm not interested in debating which role was more important.

Do we understand eachother?





</div>

I partially understand. I think Chuck's role was entirely too big with JVG as coach. At best he's a 10-15minute a game player, who should be used for specific momments in the game. Definatley not in a starting role for a contender. I don't expect Chuck to have the same impact he did in last year's regular season. Expect for Jackie Butler to play some minutes

</div>

You still haven't explained how Juwan isn't more one-dimensional than Hayes.

Hayes performs multiple roles better than Juwan. The only thing Juwan is good at, is shooting midrange jumpers. Tell me, which roles besides scoring does Juwan outperform Hayes?

Defense? No

Rebounding? No

Hustle? No

Blocked Shots? No

Offense? Yes

ROCK4LIFE · Oct 2, 2007

[quote name='foo82']

[quote name='Rock4life']

[quote name='durvasa']

[quote name='Rock4life']

But the question is "Who's the better player" and also"Which one is more one-dimensional".....Howard is CLEARY, and will alwayz be the better player overrall. And Chuck Hayes one of the most one-dimensional players in the NBA.

[/QUOTE]



And I've explained many, many times why I don't consider Chuck Hayes one-dimensional. As for who's the "better player", like foo82 I feel that it's an irrelevant question. What matters is which player is best suited in a particular role. If the role is "a scoring PF with an expanded offensive role in Yao's absence" then Juwan is better. If the role is "a rebounder/hustler/defender to compliment Yao and McGrady" then I think Chuck is better. You believe that Juwan's role was far more significant last season than Chuck's. I think both players played an important role on the team, and I'm not interested in debating which role was more important.

Do we understand eachother?





[/QUOTE]

I partially understand. I think Chuck's role was entirely too big with JVG as coach. At best he's a 10-15minute a game player, who should be used for specific momments in the game. Definatley not in a starting role for a contender. I don't expect Chuck to have the same impact he did in last year's regular season. Expect for Jackie Butler to play some minutes

[/QUOTE]

You still haven't explained how Juwan isn't more one-dimensional than Hayes.

Hayes performs multiple roles better than Juwan. The only thing Juwan is good at, is shooting midrange jumpers. Tell me, which roles besides scoring does Juwan outperform Hayes?

Defense? No

Rebounding? No

Hustle? No

Blocked Shots? No

Offense? Yes



[/QUOTE]

CHUCK HAYES 

PTS 5.6 

REBS:6.7 

ASS: 0.6 

STLS: 0.9 

BLKS: 0.2 

FT: 61% 

JUWAN HOWARD

PTS: 9.7 

REBS: 5.9

ASS: 1.6

STL: 0.4

BLKS: 0.1

FTS: 82%

If you notice the overrall stats from last year, you'd notice that the areas FOO82 claims Chuck is so much greater than Juwan aren't that much greater. Blocks? Close. Rebounds? Close. Steals? Close. But the biggest difference is offensivley, Juwan has a 4pt margin. Also theres almost a 20% gap in free throw%. Plus Juwan took over a 100 more free throws whilemaking about a 100 more free throws. Production-wise the proof is in the pudding.

foo82 · Oct 2, 2007

Yet, you are only stating what I already know. We all know that Juwan is a better offensive player. This is exactly why I said he is one-dimensional. Besides shooting mid-range jumpshots, there really isn't much else that he does. Again, you are avoiding the one-dimensional aspect of the argument. Again, you are trying to "prove" who is the better player, which I will not argue because that is up to what your criteria of "better" is. Your criteria for judging a player is much different than mine or the next person. Arguing who is better is like arguing that Kobe is better than Shaq during the LA days. Different peoplel, different criteria.

I'm trying to spell things out for you. I have stated for like the last 3 or 4 posts that I am not arguing who the better player is. How many times do I have to repeat that until the point gets across?

Let me ask again. Besides offensive production, how is Juwan any less one-dimensional than Hayes is? What else does Juwan bring? I don't want the intangible bullshit such as a veteran presense and maturity.

durvasa · Oct 2, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rock4life)</div><div class='quotemain'>

CHUCK HAYES 

PTS 5.6 

REBS:6.7 

ASS: 0.6 

STLS: 0.9 

BLKS: 0.2 

FT: 61% 

JUWAN HOWARD

PTS: 9.7 

REBS: 5.9

ASS: 1.6

STL: 0.4

BLKS: 0.1

FTS: 82%

If you notice the overrall stats from last year, you'd notice that the areas FOO82 claims Chuck is so much greater than Juwan aren't that much greater. Blocks? Close. Rebounds? Close. Steals? Close. But the biggest difference is offensivley, Juwan has a 4pt margin. Also theres almost a 20% gap in free throw%. Plus Juwan took over a 100 more free throws whilemaking about a 100 more free throws. Production-wise the proof is in the pudding.

</div>

First of all, rebounds and steals aren't close at all. In a typical NBA game, there are over twice as many points scored as rebounds, and over ten times as many points scored as steals recorded. If you want to judge how "close" they are in various stat categories, a better way is to see they rank in those categories relative to the league. For instance, let's look at points scored per minute, rebounds per minute, and steals per minute. Last season, 329 players played more than 500 minutes. Amongst that pool of players, this is how Juwan and Chuck ranked in these statistical categories:

<table width="334" height="169" cellspacing="3" cellpadding="3" border="1">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td></td>
<td>points per minute</td>
<td>rebounds per minute</td>
<td>steals per minute</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Juwan</td>
<td align="center">187</td>
<td align="center">90</td>
<td align="center">309</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Chuck</td>
<td align="center">294</td>
<td align="center">17</td>
<td align="center">51</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>difference</td>
<td align="center">-107</td>
<td align="center">+73</td>
<td align="center">+258</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>




A still better way to judge how "close" they are is to compare how far from the average they are in the various categories. More precisely, to take into account the distributions for points, rebounds, steals across all players in our pool, we should compare the number of standard deviations from the mean for each statistical category.

<table width="369" height="166" cellspacing="3" cellpadding="3" border="1">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td></td>
<td>points per minute</td>
<td>rebounds per minute</td>
<td>steals per minute</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Juwan</td>
<td align="center">-0.23</td>
<td align="center">+0.67</td>
<td align="center">-1.44</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Chuck</td>
<td align="center">-1.19</td>
<td align="center">+1.75</td>
<td align="center">+0.98</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>difference</td>
<td align="center">-0.96</td>
<td align="center">+1.08</td>
<td align="center">+2.42</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>




So, when we adjust for the actual distributions for the statistical categories across the league, we find that Chuck is actually far better at getting rebounds and steals than Juwan, to an extent that even exceeds how much better Juwan was at scoring points per minute.

Now, next point: you've left out FG%. If you combine FGA, FGM, FTA, and FTM into a single percentage number -- which TS% does -- then you'll find that Chuck was far more efficient than Juwan despite being a poorer free throw shooter.

So for every 100 scoring attempts (closely approximated by FGA + .44*FTA), Chuck scored 117.4 points. For Juwan, it ends up being 103.4 (which was actually one of his better seasons).

And how about steals to turnovers? Chuck had 64 turnovers the entire season, and got 70 steals. Juwan had 112 turnovers, and only 29 steals.

And if you're going to be comparing per game numbers like this, you should also mention that Juwan averaged 4 more minutes per game on the season. The longer you're on the court, the more time you have to collect "stats".

dakeem1 · Oct 3, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rock4life)</div><div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (durvasa)</div><div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rock4life)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Why is my question irrevelant? If ur statement that Chuck Hayes is indeed a better overallplayer than Juwan Howard is, then I'm sure Hayes could've filled in for Yao and produced double-figure points and a adequate number of rebounds in a BIGGER role as Juwan did.

</div>

That doesn't follow. He could have provided more rebounding and better defense. But when Mutombo was already filling in for Yao, that wasn't as much of a priority as scoring.

Juwan's value shot up and Chuck's went down when Yao was out of the lineup. And when Yao returned, the opposite happened. Actually, let's just compare Juwan's stats while Yao was out to Chuck's stats when Yao returned. Juwan played 32 mpg for when Yao was out, which he should absolutely be credited for. All the other stats are "per 30 minutes".

<table cellspacing="3" cellpadding="3" width="670" border="3">
<caption>Juwan during Yao's Injury VS Chuck after Yao returned
</caption>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td align="center"></td>
<td align="center">min/g</td>
<td align="center">pts/30</td>
<td align="center">TS%</td>
<td align="center">reb/30</td>
<td align="center">ast/30</td>
<td align="center">TO/30</td>
<td align="center">stl/30</td>
<td align="center">blk/30</td>
<td align="center">PF/30</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Juwan (12/23 - 3/3)</td>
<td align="center">32.2</td>
<td align="center">12.4</td>
<td align="center">52.4%</td>
<td align="center">6.1</td>
<td align="center">2.3</td>
<td align="center">1.7</td>
<td align="center">0.4</td>
<td align="center">0.1</td>
<td align="center">2.7</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Chuck (12/23 - 3/3)</td>
<td align="center">19.5</td>
<td align="center">7.0</td>
<td align="center">56.4%</td>
<td align="center">8.3</td>
<td align="center">0.9</td>
<td align="center">1.1</td>
<td align="center">1.1</td>
<td align="center">0.4</td>
<td align="center">5.2</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Chuck (3/3 - 4/18)</td>
<td align="center">25.7</td>
<td align="center">9.1</td>
<td align="center">64.2%</td>
<td align="center">9.6</td>
<td align="center">0.9</td>
<td align="center">0.9</td>
<td align="center">1.6</td>
<td align="center">0.3</td>
<td align="center">4.6</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Juwan (3/3 - 4/18)</td>
<td align="center">24.1</td>
<td align="center">10.6</td>
<td align="center">50.6%</td>
<td align="center">6.9</td>
<td align="center">1.6</td>
<td align="center">1.4</td>
<td align="center">0.4</td>
<td align="center">0.2</td>
<td align="center">3.2</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>






Per 30 minutes of action, can you really say that Juwan's numbers when Yao was injured are clearly better than Chuck's numbers after Yao returned? In general, I'd rather have a 9 pts, 9 reb type player who's extremely efficient and forces a lot of turnovers, compared to the 14 pts, 6 reb you talk about. That's something Chuck is capable of giving a team in a starting role. Not Juwan.











</div>

But the question is "Who's the better player" and also"Which one is more one-dimensional".....Howard is CLEARY, and will alwayz be the better player overrall. And Chuck Hayes one of the most one-dimensional players in the NBA.

</div>



Hey Rock... see this post I quoted? check Foo's post directly above it. He basically answers your question.. or more like nullifies your question as to who is the better player.

Read all the arguments before you ignorantly post something. I mean, you asked a question directly after Foo's post that nullified it.

foo82 · Oct 3, 2007

edit: nm.

You can't delete posts?

ROCK4LIFE · Oct 3, 2007

Expect Jackie Butler to get playin time over Hayes this year

ROCK4LIFE · Oct 3, 2007

[quote name='Rock4life']

[quote name='dakeem1']

[quote name='Rock4life']

[quote name='durvasa']

[quote name='Rock4life']

Why is my question irrevelant? If ur statement that Chuck Hayes is indeed a better overallplayer than Juwan Howard is, then I'm sure Hayes could've filled in for Yao and produced double-figure points and a adequate number of rebounds in a BIGGER role as Juwan did.

[/QUOTE]

That doesn't follow. He could have provided more rebounding and better defense. But when Mutombo was already filling in for Yao, that wasn't as much of a priority as scoring.

Juwan's value shot up and Chuck's went down when Yao was out of the lineup. And when Yao returned, the opposite happened. Actually, let's just compare Juwan's stats while Yao was out to Chuck's stats when Yao returned. Juwan played 32 mpg for when Yao was out, which he should absolutely be credited for. All the other stats are "per 30 minutes".

<table cellspacing="3" cellpadding="3" width="670" border="3">
<caption>Juwan during Yao's Injury VS Chuck after Yao returned
</caption>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td align="center"></td>
<td align="center">min/g</td>
<td align="center">pts/30</td>
<td align="center">TS%</td>
<td align="center">reb/30</td>
<td align="center">ast/30</td>
<td align="center">TO/30</td>
<td align="center">stl/30</td>
<td align="center">blk/30</td>
<td align="center">PF/30</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Juwan (12/23 - 3/3)</td>
<td align="center">32.2</td>
<td align="center">12.4</td>
<td align="center">52.4%</td>
<td align="center">6.1</td>
<td align="center">2.3</td>
<td align="center">1.7</td>
<td align="center">0.4</td>
<td align="center">0.1</td>
<td align="center">2.7</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Chuck (12/23 - 3/3)</td>
<td align="center">19.5</td>
<td align="center">7.0</td>
<td align="center">56.4%</td>
<td align="center">8.3</td>
<td align="center">0.9</td>
<td align="center">1.1</td>
<td align="center">1.1</td>
<td align="center">0.4</td>
<td align="center">5.2</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Chuck (3/3 - 4/18)</td>
<td align="center">25.7</td>
<td align="center">9.1</td>
<td align="center">64.2%</td>
<td align="center">9.6</td>
<td align="center">0.9</td>
<td align="center">0.9</td>
<td align="center">1.6</td>
<td align="center">0.3</td>
<td align="center">4.6</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Juwan (3/3 - 4/18)</td>
<td align="center">24.1</td>
<td align="center">10.6</td>
<td align="center">50.6%</td>
<td align="center">6.9</td>
<td align="center">1.6</td>
<td align="center">1.4</td>
<td align="center">0.4</td>
<td align="center">0.2</td>
<td align="center">3.2</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>






Per 30 minutes of action, can you really say that Juwan's numbers when Yao was injured are clearly better than Chuck's numbers after Yao returned? In general, I'd rather have a 9 pts, 9 reb type player who's extremely efficient and forces a lot of turnovers, compared to the 14 pts, 6 reb you talk about. That's something Chuck is capable of giving a team in a starting role. Not Juwan.











[/QUOTE]

But the question is "Who's the better player" and also"Which one is more one-dimensional".....Howard is CLEARY, and will alwayz be the better player overrall. And Chuck Hayes one of the most one-dimensional players in the NBA.

[/QUOTE]



Hey Rock... see this post I quoted? check Foo's post directly above it. He basically answers your question.. or more like nullifies your question as to who is the better player.

Read all the arguments before you ignorantly post something. I mean, you asked a question directly after Foo's post that nullified it.

[/QUOTE]

First off, that's not Foo's quote that's Durvasa's. So maybeYOU should think before ignorantly posting something.



But anyway, it's hard to debate with Durvasa when he doesnt really have a position. He'll throw his per-30 stats out there, but most of the time he'll shy away from making any bold statements. Foo seems to make really bold and in my opinion inaccurate statements (like when he said Tmac has NEVER ran point guard) so it's easier to get in depth with our discussions. But to say "Juwan Howard is more one-dimensional than Chuck Hayes" is atrocious

ROCK4LIFE · Oct 3, 2007

YY

ROCK4LIFE · Oct 3, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (foo82)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Yet, you are only stating what I already know. We all know that Juwan is a better offensive player. This is exactly why I said he is one-dimensional. Besides shooting mid-range jumpshots, there really isn't much else that he does. Again, you are avoiding the one-dimensional aspect of the argument. Again, you are trying to "prove" who is the better player, which I will not argue because that is up to what your criteria of "better" is. Your criteria for judging a player is much different than mine or the next person. Arguing who is better is like arguing that Kobe is better than Shaq during the LA days. Different peoplel, different criteria.

I'm trying to spell things out for you. I have stated for like the last 3 or 4 posts that I am not arguing who the better player is. How many times do I have to repeat that until the point gets across?

Let me ask again. Besides offensive production, how is Juwan any less one-dimensional than Hayes is? What else does Juwan bring? I don't want the intangible bullshit such as a veteran presense and maturity.

</div>

Not so fast......If you look at Juwan Howard's stats(rebounding,steals & blocks), their not THAT big of a difference. The biggest difference is offensivley. All across the board Juwan's stats even out to a more well rounded game. Juwan also shot 100 more free throws, and made 100 more free throws. Plus he's a better passer. What did I exagerrate this time?

foo82 · Oct 3, 2007

[quote name='Rock4life']

[quote name='Rock4life']

[quote name='dakeem1']

[quote name='Rock4life']

[quote name='durvasa']

[quote name='Rock4life']

Why is my question irrevelant? If ur statement that Chuck Hayes is indeed a better overallplayer than Juwan Howard is, then I'm sure Hayes could've filled in for Yao and produced double-figure points and a adequate number of rebounds in a BIGGER role as Juwan did.

[/QUOTE]

That doesn't follow. He could have provided more rebounding and better defense. But when Mutombo was already filling in for Yao, that wasn't as much of a priority as scoring.

Juwan's value shot up and Chuck's went down when Yao was out of the lineup. And when Yao returned, the opposite happened. Actually, let's just compare Juwan's stats while Yao was out to Chuck's stats when Yao returned. Juwan played 32 mpg for when Yao was out, which he should absolutely be credited for. All the other stats are "per 30 minutes".

<table width="670" cellspacing="3" cellpadding="3" border="3">
<caption>Juwan during Yao's Injury VS Chuck after Yao returned
</caption>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td align="center"></td>
<td align="center">min/g</td>
<td align="center">pts/30</td>
<td align="center">TS%</td>
<td align="center">reb/30</td>
<td align="center">ast/30</td>
<td align="center">TO/30</td>
<td align="center">stl/30</td>
<td align="center">blk/30</td>
<td align="center">PF/30</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Juwan (12/23 - 3/3)</td>
<td align="center">32.2</td>
<td align="center">12.4</td>
<td align="center">52.4%</td>
<td align="center">6.1</td>
<td align="center">2.3</td>
<td align="center">1.7</td>
<td align="center">0.4</td>
<td align="center">0.1</td>
<td align="center">2.7</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Chuck (12/23 - 3/3)</td>
<td align="center">19.5</td>
<td align="center">7.0</td>
<td align="center">56.4%</td>
<td align="center">8.3</td>
<td align="center">0.9</td>
<td align="center">1.1</td>
<td align="center">1.1</td>
<td align="center">0.4</td>
<td align="center">5.2</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Chuck (3/3 - 4/18)</td>
<td align="center">25.7</td>
<td align="center">9.1</td>
<td align="center">64.2%</td>
<td align="center">9.6</td>
<td align="center">0.9</td>
<td align="center">0.9</td>
<td align="center">1.6</td>
<td align="center">0.3</td>
<td align="center">4.6</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Juwan (3/3 - 4/18)</td>
<td align="center">24.1</td>
<td align="center">10.6</td>
<td align="center">50.6%</td>
<td align="center">6.9</td>
<td align="center">1.6</td>
<td align="center">1.4</td>
<td align="center">0.4</td>
<td align="center">0.2</td>
<td align="center">3.2</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>






Per 30 minutes of action, can you really say that Juwan's numbers when Yao was injured are clearly better than Chuck's numbers after Yao returned? In general, I'd rather have a 9 pts, 9 reb type player who's extremely efficient and forces a lot of turnovers, compared to the 14 pts, 6 reb you talk about. That's something Chuck is capable of giving a team in a starting role. Not Juwan.











[/QUOTE]

But the question is "Who's the better player" and also"Which one is more one-dimensional".....Howard is CLEARY, and will alwayz be the better player overrall. And Chuck Hayes one of the most one-dimensional players in the NBA.

[/QUOTE]



Hey Rock... see this post I quoted? check Foo's post directly above it. He basically answers your question.. or more like nullifies your question as to who is the better player.

Read all the arguments before you ignorantly post something. I mean, you asked a question directly after Foo's post that nullified it.

[/QUOTE]

First off, that's not Foo's quote that's Durvasa's. So maybeYOU should think before ignorantly posting something.



But anyway, it's hard to debate with Durvasa when he doesnt really have a position. He'll throw his per-30 stats out there, but most of the time he'll shy away from making any bold statements. Foo seems to make really bold and in my opinion inaccurate statements (like when he said Tmac has NEVER ran point guard) so it's hard easier to get in depth with our discussions.



[/QUOTE]



Ugh, not this again. Let me ask you this. Would you say Lebron James runs the point guard position? Of course its hard to get in depth with you in discussions. Especially since you ignore any aspects where you have to prove something, and stick with the same rhetoric. You still have not answered the one-dimensional issue and have not even remotely come close to even addressing the issue. You go off tangents and make ridiculous statements that are completely irralevent to the issues we are discussing. And most damning of all, you do not provide evidence to backup your claims. You do back up your claims with false statements (such as saying that Andre Kirelenko would often come off of Hayes to double team Yao, despite the fact that Hayes was not AK's man).



Btw, Tmac was never backup pointguard for the rockets. Luther Head was. This is almost as silly as Tmacyao's obsession with tmac being a point forward.

durvasa · Oct 3, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rock4life)</div><div class='quotemain'>

But anyway, it's hard to debate with Durvasa when he doesnt really have a position. He'll throw his per-30 stats out there, but most of the time he'll shy away from making any bold statements.</div>

A couple things:



(1) When I make "bold statements", they are statements that can be objectively verified. Saying "Juwan is going to have a better season than Chuck" or "Chuck is going to prove to be a mistake as a starter" is not a bold statement, because there's no objective way of verifying that. So, it's easy for you to talk your way out of it. In contrast, last season I predicted that Chuck would average more rebounds, blocks, and steals per minute. I predicted he'd have a higher PER by the end of the season. I predicted that his +/- would be better. These are verifiable predictions, and I ended up being right on them.

You're right about one thing, though. I don't make "bold statements" just for the sake of talking. There are a ton of uncertainties in the game of basketball, and I'm not interested in making wild predictions just to make myself look smart in the case I happen to be right.

(2) A lot of the statements you make simply don't make sense, logically. I will point out these flaws, but you rarely defend them. Case in point, I just pointed out the flaw in bringing up FT% in the Juwan v Chuck comparison without bothering to mention FG%. Or the flaw in comparing how "close" two players are in various statistical categories by simply looking at the difference. If you really wanted to debate, you could honestly address these issues. But instead you choose to avoid it.

(3) When you choose to throw out stats willy-nilly, I will critique it. You brought up the points and rebounds with respect to Juwan and Chuck, so I responded with a more complete picture of their stats last season. What's wrong with that?

ROCK4LIFE · Oct 4, 2007

[quote name='foo82']

[quote name='Rock4life']

[quote name='Rock4life']

[quote name='dakeem1']

[quote name='Rock4life']

[quote name='durvasa']

[quote name='Rock4life']

Why is my question irrevelant? If ur statement that Chuck Hayes is indeed a better overallplayer than Juwan Howard is, then I'm sure Hayes could've filled in for Yao and produced double-figure points and a adequate number of rebounds in a BIGGER role as Juwan did.

[/QUOTE]

That doesn't follow. He could have provided more rebounding and better defense. But when Mutombo was already filling in for Yao, that wasn't as much of a priority as scoring.

Juwan's value shot up and Chuck's went down when Yao was out of the lineup. And when Yao returned, the opposite happened. Actually, let's just compare Juwan's stats while Yao was out to Chuck's stats when Yao returned. Juwan played 32 mpg for when Yao was out, which he should absolutely be credited for. All the other stats are "per 30 minutes".

<table cellspacing="3" cellpadding="3" width="670" border="3">
<caption>Juwan during Yao's Injury VS Chuck after Yao returned
</caption>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td align="center"></td>
<td align="center">min/g</td>
<td align="center">pts/30</td>
<td align="center">TS%</td>
<td align="center">reb/30</td>
<td align="center">ast/30</td>
<td align="center">TO/30</td>
<td align="center">stl/30</td>
<td align="center">blk/30</td>
<td align="center">PF/30</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Juwan (12/23 - 3/3)</td>
<td align="center">32.2</td>
<td align="center">12.4</td>
<td align="center">52.4%</td>
<td align="center">6.1</td>
<td align="center">2.3</td>
<td align="center">1.7</td>
<td align="center">0.4</td>
<td align="center">0.1</td>
<td align="center">2.7</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Chuck (12/23 - 3/3)</td>
<td align="center">19.5</td>
<td align="center">7.0</td>
<td align="center">56.4%</td>
<td align="center">8.3</td>
<td align="center">0.9</td>
<td align="center">1.1</td>
<td align="center">1.1</td>
<td align="center">0.4</td>
<td align="center">5.2</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Chuck (3/3 - 4/18)</td>
<td align="center">25.7</td>
<td align="center">9.1</td>
<td align="center">64.2%</td>
<td align="center">9.6</td>
<td align="center">0.9</td>
<td align="center">0.9</td>
<td align="center">1.6</td>
<td align="center">0.3</td>
<td align="center">4.6</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">Juwan (3/3 - 4/18)</td>
<td align="center">24.1</td>
<td align="center">10.6</td>
<td align="center">50.6%</td>
<td align="center">6.9</td>
<td align="center">1.6</td>
<td align="center">1.4</td>
<td align="center">0.4</td>
<td align="center">0.2</td>
<td align="center">3.2</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>






Per 30 minutes of action, can you really say that Juwan's numbers when Yao was injured are clearly better than Chuck's numbers after Yao returned? In general, I'd rather have a 9 pts, 9 reb type player who's extremely efficient and forces a lot of turnovers, compared to the 14 pts, 6 reb you talk about. That's something Chuck is capable of giving a team in a starting role. Not Juwan.











[/QUOTE]

But the question is "Who's the better player" and also"Which one is more one-dimensional".....Howard is CLEARY, and will alwayz be the better player overrall. And Chuck Hayes one of the most one-dimensional players in the NBA.

[/QUOTE]



Hey Rock... see this post I quoted? check Foo's post directly above it. He basically answers your question.. or more like nullifies your question as to who is the better player.

Read all the arguments before you ignorantly post something. I mean, you asked a question directly after Foo's post that nullified it.

[/QUOTE]

First off, that's not Foo's quote that's Durvasa's. So maybeYOU should think before ignorantly posting something.



But anyway, it's hard to debate with Durvasa when he doesnt really have a position. He'll throw his per-30 stats out there, but most of the time he'll shy away from making any bold statements. Foo seems to make really bold and in my opinion inaccurate statements (like when he said Tmac has NEVER ran point guard) so it's hard easier to get in depth with our discussions.



[/QUOTE]



Ugh, not this again. Let me ask you this. Would you say Lebron James runs the point guard position? Of course its hard to get in depth with you in discussions. Especially since you ignore any aspects where you have to prove something, and stick with the same rhetoric. You still have not answered the one-dimensional issue and have not even remotely come close to even addressing the issue. You go off tangents and make ridiculous statements that are completely irralevent to the issues we are discussing. And most damning of all, you do not provide evidence to backup your claims. You do back up your claims with false statements (such as saying that Andre Kirelenko would often come off of Hayes to double team Yao, despite the fact that Hayes was not AK's man).



Btw, Tmac was never backup pointguard for the rockets. Luther Head was. This is almost as silly as Tmacyao's obsession with tmac being a point forward.



[/QUOTE]

Backing up my claims withridiculousclaims? Again, here are the stats from last years season:

CHUCK HAYES

PTS: 5.6

REBS: 6.7

ASS: 0.6

BLKS: 0.2

STL: 0.9

FT:61%



JUWAN HOWARD

PTS: 9.7

REBS: 5.9

ASS: 1.6

BLKS:0.1

STL: 0.4

FT: 82%

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