<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">^^^yeah it isn't just Kobe and "the scrubs", he has some talent around him...he even credits his current success to Odom and Luke...</div> Yeah but Luke and Odom were gone for a while which is a reason why they "struggled". And what's this about not scoring within the flow of the game? He catered his entire game this season towards his teammates until that awful losing streak. Kobe can take as many ugly shots as he wants, they're all "quality" shots. Wade's team struggled as well and plays in the East. You can thank Wade for everything he did against the Mavs but there's no doubt Kobe could dominate that team as well. Wade averaged 35 ppg and less than 4 APG (and I never heard people complain about his "ballhogness" in that series) in that Finals series, of course Kobe can do that.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah but Luke and Odom were gone for a while which is a reason why they "struggled". </div> yeah, which proves that Kobe does have talent around them when the Lakers are healthy <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And what's this about not scoring within the flow of the game? He catered his entire game this season towards his teammates until that awful losing streak. Kobe can take as many ugly shots as he wants, they're all "quality" shots.</div> Tex Winter even notices the same thing and has mentioned it before this season. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Wade's team struggled as well and plays in the East. You can thank Wade for everything he did against the Mavs but there's no doubt Kobe could dominate that team as well. Wade averaged 35 ppg and less than 4 APG (and I never heard people complain about his" ballhogness" in that series) in that Finals series, of course Kobe can do that. </div> yeah I never said that Kobe couldn't dominate them....
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">yeah, which proves that Kobe does have talent around them when the Lakers are healthy</div> Yeah, and when they are healthy they win many games. When they're not there, they go on seven game losing streaks. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Tex Winter even notices the same thing and has mentioned it before this season.</div> And yet, his TS% is the same as Wade's. Quality shots fellow. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> yeah I never said that Kobe couldn't dominate them....</div> K, cool.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And yet, his TS% is the same as Wade's. Quality shots fellow.</div> ...but truthfully, Wade is not as good a pure scorer as Kobe by any means.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And yet, his TS% is the same as Wade's. Quality shots fellow.</div> it isn't too much quality shots that I'm talking about, but it's like what Tex Winter said....Kobe has his mind made up before the game of what he's going to do....it doesn't come naturally in the flow of the game.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">it isn't too much quality shots that I'm talking about, but it's like what Tex Winter said....Kobe has his mind made up before the game of what he's going to do....it doesn't come naturally in the flow of the game.</div> He's got the same percentage on more shots... Maybe he doesn't need to be in the flow of the game all the time, just a thought. He shouldn't be held to a higher standard if he's just as efficient.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know how you can say that when he hasn't even gotten out of the first round without Shaquille O'neal next to him yet. And it's not going to happen this season either. Kobe is a great player, but he is NOT on Jordan's level. Don't blow his incredible scoring streaks out of proportion.</div> I don't remember if Jordan got his team out of the first round before Pippen came along. Maybe you should enlighten me on that?
yeah, but Kobe's got a lot more to work with than MJ did before Pippen or Grant came along......plus MJ was the focal point of those Bulls titles...Shaq was the focal point of those Bulls titles...not Kobe (although he still served a huge purpose)......Shaq was successful and is successful without Kobe, Kobe has yet to prove that he can succeed without Shaq.....if Kobe doesn't win another title or even get close without Shaq that will tarnish his legacy somewhat (and he knows this)
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">yeah, but Kobe's got a lot more to work with than MJ did before Pippen or Grant came along......plus MJ was the focal point of those Bulls titles...Shaq was the focal point of those Bulls titles...not Kobe (although he still served a huge purpose)......Shaq was successful and is successful without Kobe, Kobe has yet to prove that he can succeed without Shaq.....if Kobe doesn't win another title or even get close without Shaq that will tarnish his legacy somewhat (and he knows this)</div> Those type of Awards that you're looking for depend on the teammates around one. MJ averaged five assists per game, I don't know why you're speaking as if he was so much better at passing. Kobe has played better without Shaq. In the past there just weren't enough shots to go around and that affected Kobe's PER since Shaq had seniority on him and was an MVP candidate every year. If Wade played with that Shaq he would have to defer more to him. Kobe won a bunch of titles when he was younger but he "paid for it" by giving up individual stats in his prime. Yeah MJ once averaged 37 points a game, but he wouldn't be able to get that many shots off on a better team. That said, I rank MJ slightly ahead of Kobe at the moment.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Those type of Awards that you're looking for depend on the teammates around one. MJ averaged five assists per game, I don't know why you're speaking as if he was so much better at passing. </div> I didn't say anything about passing or assists, I was just arguing that MJ really didn't have "anyone" next to him when he couldn't get out of the first round. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe has played better without Shaq. In the past there just weren't enough shots to go around and that affected Kobe's PER since Shaq had seniority on him and was an MVP candidate every year. If Wade played with that Shaq he would have to defer more to him. Kobe won a bunch of titles when he was younger but he "paid for it" by giving up individual stats in his prime. Yeah MJ once averaged 37 points a game, but he wouldn't be able to get that many shots off on a better team. </div> yeah but Kobe has been without Shaq now for 3 seasons and he still hasn't reached that average of 37.1 ppg (35 was his best and he probably won't get there this year) and Michael was still a dynamite scorer with help, all that we can do is speculate on what Kobe could've or would've done. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That said, I rank MJ slightly ahead of Kobe at the moment. </div> "slightly"???....can't agree there man (at least not yet)....so would you consider Kobe one of the 10 greatest players ever? I just think he's far off from that. He's not in the league of (my current top 10 in no particular order) 1. Wilt 2. Kareem 3. Russell 4. Hakeem 5. Shaq 6. Jordan 7. Bird 8. Magic 9. Oscar 10. Duncan
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I didn't say anything about passing or assists, I was just arguing that MJ really didn't have "anyone" next to him when he couldn't get out of the first round.</div> I was speaking in general. Teammate-wise he's just as good as Jordan. Jordan hogged the ball and punched teammates (and gambled which the media says can affect on-court play if one is in a vice). Shaq admits to causing friction first and wanted to earn about half the salary cap per annum. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> yeah but Kobe has been without Shaq now for 3 seasons and he still hasn't reached that average of 37.1 ppg (35 was his best and he probably won't get there this year) and Michael was still a dynamite scorer with help, all that we can do is speculate on what Kobe could've or would've done.</div> Well Michael Did that when he was 23. He also averaged 35 when he was 24. Kobe didn't get that oppurtunity at that age. I also don't rank Kobe equal with MJ yet so I don't care if he doesn't average 37 a game. There was a point last year in the season where he started to pass the ball more in February and March which annoyed me; he did that to please the media. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> "slightly"???....can't agree there man (at least not yet)....so would you consider Kobe one of the 10 greatest players ever? I just think he's far off from that. He's not in the league of (my current top 10 in no particular order) 1. Wilt 2. Kareem 3. Russell 4. Hakeem 5. Shaq 6. Jordan 7. Bird 8. Magic 9. Oscar 10. Duncan</div> I was talking about their primes. Jordan is only somewhat ahead of Kobe (and if we start talking about Career nights, then he's just as good). I don't care about career averages or rings.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I was talking about their primes. Jordan is only somewhat ahead of Kobe. I don't care about career averages or rings. </div> I have to really disagree with that. Hypothetically speaking do you think if you replaced MJ with Kobe on those bulls teams that they'd have 6 titles. And do you think if MJ replaced Kobe on these current Lakers that they would've made it out of the 1st round by now?
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I have to really disagree with that. Hypothetically speaking do you think if you replaced MJ with Kobe on those bulls teams that they'd have 6 titles. And do you think if MJ replaced Kobe on these current Lakers that they would've made it out of the 1st round by now?</div> Haven't you yourself said that the 90's was weaker? If MJ played with the 06-07 Laker roster he'd have to hog the ball and struggle to get out of the first round like he did when he was in his early 20's. Jordan didn't get out of the first round until he played the 42-40 Cleveland cavaliers in 1987-1988 which was also Pippen's rookie year.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq was successful and is successful without Kobe, Kobe has yet to prove that he can succeed without Shaq.....if Kobe doesn't win another title or even get close without Shaq that will tarnish his legacy somewhat (and he knows this)</div> Shaq has always had another superstar playing with him. In Orlando, he had Penny Hardaway, in Los Angeles, he had Kobe Bryant, and currently in Miami, he has Dwyane Wade. Kobe Bryant has done the best he can with the current Lakers roster. I don't know if you remember, but last year we could have upset 2nd seeded Phoenix Suns had it not been for 1 lucky rebound. Bottom line is, Kobe doesn't have enough talent around him to succeed. Lamar Odom is good, but he's way too inconsitent to be a second option. Luke Walton is good, but he's nothing more than just a role player. Everyone else around Kobe are basically just scrubs
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Haven't you yourself said that the 90's was weaker? If MJ played with the 06-07 Laker roster he'd have to hog the ball and struggle to get out of the first round like he did when he was in his early 20's. Jordan didn't get out of the first round until he played the 42-40 Cleveland cavaliers in 1987-1988 which was also Pippen's rookie year. </div> Overall weaker???, no I didn't say that, I said that the SG/SF position is probably better, but player for player and team for team the 90's was better. I just don't see Kobe or the Lakers winning a title within the next 2 or 3 years (when Kobe will still be in his prime) which is why when it's all said and done with Kobe won't be in the same league as a Jordan. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq has always had another superstar playing with him. In Orlando, he had Penny Hardaway, in Los Angeles, he had Kobe Bryant, and currently in Miami, he has Dwyane Wade. Kobe Bryant has done the best he can with the current Lakers roster. I don't know if you remember, but last year we could have upset 2nd seeded Phoenix Suns had it not been for 1 lucky rebound. Bottom line is, Kobe doesn't have enough talent around him to succeed. Lamar Odom is good, but he's way too inconsitent to be a second option. Luke Walton is good, but he's nothing more than just a role player. Everyone else around Kobe are basically just scrubs </div> dude Shaq was the man before Kobe came along, yes he had help, but throw Shaq in his prime on any team and we have a title contender on our hands. Put Shaq in his prime (or any other player in my top 10) on this current Laker team and I guarantee you they're getting out of the first round.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> I just don't see Kobe or the Lakers winning a title within the next 2 or 3 years (when Kobe will still be in his prime) which is why when it's all said and done with Kobe won't be in the same league as a Jordan.</div> If you surround Kobe with some actual talent, then he will. But as of now, he has basically nobody
^^^he has enough to get out the 1st round imo. Odom is inconsistent but is still a decent second option who can score,create, and rebound.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">^^^he has enough to get out the 1st round imo. Odom is inconsistent but is still a decent second option who can score,create, and rebound.</div> He has enough? Um, no. Look at the top teams in the West. The Lakers in no way match up with any of them. Besides Kobe, Lamar, and maybe Walton, who else do we have on this roster that can help us advance to the second round?
I'm just saying if we're talking about someone being "slightly" behind MJ then I'm going to need that guy to make it out of the 1st round in the "prime" of his career. (no excuses)
