Disregarding and subordinating are two very different things. My child may have logic behind his choices, but it's going to be on balance inferior to my own. Therefore my expectation for him, absent the ability to necessarily grasp my logic, is to at least subordinate to it. By the same token, I'm willing to acknowledge that while I have logic behind my own conclusions, an omniscient creator would have logic that surpasses mine. If I am going to acknowledge the existence and supremacy of such a being, it would be foolish of me--logically--to presume my logic to be superior to His. I wouldn't expect someone who does not believe in the existence of an omniscient deity to see value in subordinating to the logic of such. But surely you can understand how, given the base condition of faith in said deity, subordination thereto must logically follow.
This topic has generated into a discussion about why the christian bible says x. Man can't see a little white lie being equal to someone who murders another human. Again this comes back to the human nature of passing judgement on others. Or even competitiveness. ex.'I might've done x which is bad, but this person did x which is worse. Therefore I'm better than them.' The christian bible states. Even one sin will keep you from getting to god. Therefore any acts you do in this life won't be enough. Only through Jesus may you be accepted. You can continually ask why it says this and people can continually give you the answer of. Christians aren't allowed to judge others as there is only one judge. You then can either choose to accept that answer. Or You can choose to continually not like that answer and repeat yourself until you're blue in the face.... Like many of you do on other topics. But those are your decisions. Just like it's others decisions to use the ignore feature on this site.
Excellent response and given the belief in God I see your view makes sense. My worry is not that you with your view of god, does bad in the name of subordinating ones logic, but I’m sure you do see that there are many religions, sects, and beliefs in what god instructs. This can be extremely dangerous.
Another problem with subordinating ones logic is that as soon as you are willing to do so the religion or god you have chosen becomes right regardless. And in most cases that religion or god is applied at such a young age that logic is never used to ascertain if the core t faith is at hand. If you are then born into a faith that promotes the killing of apostates, gays or the subjugation of women then ipso facto that is logical to your god and any inkling that it is not is disregarded as mans flaw to question.
@PtldPlatypus thank you for the conversation. I’m not trying to convince you, I’m just thinking through the topic with you. It’s wonderful to have a calm counterpart to discuss these topics. I mean no insult, you believe and I don’t. The love of my life believes and I don’t have these discussions with her because it’s important that she never feel disapproval from me and even if unintended I don’t want to mistakenly step on her relationship with Jesus.
I believe I fully understand your position. While I can not accept it as my own, and I do not think it is anything close to an excuse, I have no desire or intention of attempting to convince you any differently. I am even please you are please with your view. Christians of good deeds and at peace with where they are, are admirable. I do not view God as a being of any description that requires us to subjugate our mind to his will, God is how we are here, doing as we do, seeking to improve as a work in progress. Improvement comes as Jesus taught in actions. While holiness can not be earned, improvement is the goal, ever the goal. Perfection in the ultimate faith is beyond men, perhaps Jesus did this for all of us, but not as the easy out.
I find no insult in anything you've said; I fully understand the objections, and honestly it is valuable to me to hear them and formulate a reasoned response. I'm glad that you have enough respect for your fiancee to be as sensitive as you are to her spirituality, despite your differences. If discussing these things with me helps to promote harmony in your relationship with her, and perhaps even foster a greater understanding of her perspective (assuming it aligns somewhat with my own), then I'm glad to be of service.
What are they tossing in trash? Huh? That part baffles me. The Jews that don't believe in that sect of Christianity don't even have to acknowledge it. Also, it's not even meant as a disdain. I don't even care if they baptize me which they might want to do since I was baptized in another sect of Christianity. Why should I care? You might even cuss me in the privacy of your own home. Why would I care? I've never heard a Jew express any discontent with this practice. Similarly some people have said that homosexuals marrying one another denigrates the institution of marriage. But me and my wife find that it doesn't affect us at all. Why should we care? Besides, our church accepts homosexual priests, i.e. the same church as the Bush family attends. LBJ belonged to the same church. Okay, I'm getting off track.
It’s hard for me to explain so I googled it and found the following article where slate members discuss this very topic. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ong_for_mormons_to_baptize_daniel_pearl_.html To me it comes down to being disrespectful. These Jews spent their entire life choosing Judaism and denying Christ and many died for that belief. But after death this profoundly held belief is sort of negated and tossed aside by people who do not and have never underStood the same piety. Does it functionally matter? No. Is it disrespectful? Yes. I’ll take a revolting example just to make a point. If the Mormans Pissed on the graves of those Jews that too would functionally not make a difference, so what’s wrong with that? To be baptized as Christian to a Jew is akin to being pissed on even though the intent my the Morman is more noble.
If I remember correctly, one of the Pope's, perhaps the current one, has allowed that the Jews may get into heaven even though they do not take Christ as the son of God. His rational I think was, they have a prior covenant with God. I find that rather big of him. But, can you relate the take the Jews get from this? Or do they even care?
When the grave was pissed on, it left a physical result. Also, if no one knew about the pissing then it's the same as never having happened. The Mormons do not make public their effort to baptize in abstention. And it has no physical effect. It's not like the Nazis marching with lit torches chanting "Jews will not replace us." Now, that's an affront. If the Mormons want to baptize me, have at it, I don't recognize it nor do I care about it. We can go round and round on this one but it's clear that you are not going to change and I know I'm not so it's best we leave it at that. By the way, are you going to be insulted if some Mormon someplace decides to baptize you? Or do you even care? After all, it's not like they're pissing on you or declaring hate for one of your ancestors by pissing on their grave. I say, there are more important battles in this world.
Would it bother me if they baptized me? No, it wouldn’t. Would it bother me if they baptized my great grandfather Irwin who was gassed for being a Jew, yes. When someone makes the ultimate sacrifice for their beliefs, it’s rude, even in secret totoss those beliefs aside. And how secret was it? It happened time and time again and it kept on getting “leaked”. As far as more important battles, well that’s a bullshit argument to start with. There will always be more important battles for everything but one thing you deem most important. Why try and cure lupus when there is a bigger battle of MS, and why cure MS when resources could go towards cancer, and why cancer when there’s heart disease. Why are you pissed at Trump, surly there are bigger battles in this world then what the Orange Fucker tweets. Screw that I can’t be bothered by Mormans pissing on my ancestors.
The Mormons are saying being a Jew is not good enough. Not holy enough. They are making that choice for people who were killed because they were Jews. Some have surviving relatives who are not consulted, who sometimes explicitly oppose the "baptism" but Mormons don't care. They are indeed pissing on the graves. I challenge you to find a single Jew, even the most secular, even downright atheists like me, who don't consider it an insult. No parallel to same sex couples marrying. In that case they couples are claiming a civil right for themselves. They are not forcing anyone else to marry a same sex partner. What the Mormons are doing would be more equivalent to a happily married straight person dying, and a church posthumously marrying the person to a same sex partner, disregarding the wishes of the widow/widower. Actually I do understand and that is EXACTLY my problem. Because logic, reason, even cold hard established facts go out the window in favor of subordination to a deity. So if your deity says kill infidels (whoever they happen to be), if your deity justifies slavery, well, go for it. We see this in creationism. People who gladly accept 21st century electronics, 21st century medicine, insist as Kenneth Hamm said "there is a book written 2000 years ago" (actually creation story even older) that negates everything learned in biology, geology, astronomy, archaeology, etc. Because subordination takes precedence over facts. It is now an article of faith for white American evangelicals that Trump was sent/selected by god. People have pointed out his history of serial adultery, scams, abuse, his current behavior of nonstop lies, using the presidency to enrich himself, paying off porn stars, his obvious glee in hurting the most vulnerable, the very people (children, the poor, the sick, the stranger) that Jesus allegedly said to care for and they either say no, never happened, fake news or it doesn't matter. Polls show that white evangelicals, who until about 3 years ago were the ones how cared most about a president's moral behavior, now are the ones who care least.
They're not making any choice except for themselves. Zero impact on Jews. If they want to marry me to some man after I'm dead and cold why the hell should I care? I'm gone. Nobody's even gonna tell my wife. Zero impact.
Do you care whether Joe Schmoe cusses you in private in his own home and doesn't even tell you about it? No effect.
It’s not Joe Schmoe, it was discovered many times so it wasn’t too private, and it wasn’t cussing me out, it was trying to remove the core of what people died for.
It is disrespectful on one hand and very nice on the other. If they believe they're saving you from hell that's very compassionate of them. It should be well known that Jewish people don't give a fuck so they shouldn't do it again.
The first time, not offended. They were asked to cease, they said they would, and kept doing it. Over and over. They keep promising and then it “leaks” again. The kindness that the gesture showed the first time is lost after dozens of requests to stop.
