Payton and Kobe...Best Backcourt of All-Time?

payton isnt better than cousy im sorry youre only looking at their numbers an clearly havent seen cousy play much. i never went to one of his games but ive seen a lot of tape. Cousy revolutionaized the position. payton did not. the only PGs who have come clse to cousy have been stockton magic and maybe kidd. Havlicek was just as valueble as kobe is. retired as one of the top 5 scorers in league history and hes still top 10. all those other groups were better than kobe and payton

 

Like I said before...of course Cousy revolutioned the PG position because when he played there was nothing to revolutionize. He was really the first great PG to play the game. Those other groups are not better. The two closest I think are Frazier/Monroe (though I think Monroe played SF the most, can't remember), and Cousy/Hondo.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Why are matching Kobe with Cousy? Payton and Cousy basically even out. Kobe is on the same level, to me a little higher, than Hondo.</div>Are you crazy? I have lost all respect for you as a poster. Hondo backed up Jones and Cousy. Cousy was the best guard in Celtics history. Of course he is better than Kobe. Hondo and Jones are both better than Payton. Cousy, Jones, and Hondo are all top 50 NBA players of All-Time. Kobe will be, but he isn't now and Payton will never be.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Baylor played SOME shooting guard. SF is his primary position. He played night in and night out. Therefore he can't be considered.</div>Are there rules to this? Do you need to logg a certain amount of minutes to be considered? I don't think so.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Still: Willis Reed? Maybe I'll help you a little, Reed was a center. I've said that the closest backcourt may be Frazier and Earl Monroe so atleast you got the Knicks part right.</div>I am very sorry, I honestly meant Monroe. It was a mistake that I just now noticed.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Again, why are you matching Kobe with Isiah? Isiah is a bit better than Payton, however Kobe is better than Dumars.</div>Thomas wasn't much worse than Kobe and Dumars was a million times better than Payton.

 

yea but how can you jkust assume that payton would be so innovative. Cousy found things in the oppenents strategy to take advantage of. he did it beter than anyone and probably still would. youre overratting kobe and payton they jsuts arent as ogod as those other groups

 

It's not like I'm saying it's some blowout. I'm barely edging Kobe and Payton out here. It can go either way, but the only backcourts that I think can challenge them are Cous/Hondo and Frazier/Monroe.

Spartanfan: When a player played 90% of their time at SF they shouldn't be considered, ala Elgin Baylor.

Kobe as an individual talent is better than Cousy, yes I believe that. The last couple seasons Kobe has had have already been better all-around seasons than Cousy has had in his career.

Payton has had, and always will have, a better all-around game than Dumars. Better passer, equal defensively, better rebounder, an edge to Dumars on offense.

Looking back, maybe I am giving credit to Kobe and Payton too much, however as individual talents I do feel that these two are the best backcourt the NBA has had to offer.

 

Elgin player played a lot more at SG than 10% thats not true about kobe either. Hes scored more points but cousy was a better shooter passer playmaker runner stealer and better yes better in the clutch/ plus you have no idea how theyre going to work together even if they were better talents as you say. they dont even know how to play together yet. it will take time and payton is already in the twighlight of his career

 

I know I don't know how they will play together. However, that is why I have been basing this whole thing on the players as individual talents alone.

*edit* In a moment of thought that wasn't clustered with a whole bunch of things at once I realize that I have made a mistake. When I saw Sam Jones' name I got it confused with K.C. Jones. My mistake. Now I'm not saying that it is better than a Payton/Kobe backcourt I will settle for calling them even.

 

i still maintiain kobe and payton arent better than those guys. i find its usually the people who lack a sense of basketball history that want to put kobe in the top 20-30 of any player in history and assume that any star today is better than any similar star of old

 

I forget, was Andy Phillip a guard? If so you can add him to the Celtics guard roster.

 

Oh no, I wouldn't call Kobe a top 20-30 player YET. However, I follow the NBA religiously basically so I DO know my NBA history. I don't say that the players of today are better than the players of old. Hell, I think Wilt is the best center ever and Oscar Robertson is the best PG ever.

Also, I edited my last post....

 

fair enough its obvious youre not going to change your mind on this subject

 

Wow. I'm surprised that there isn't an uproar that I put a backcourt of Jones/Cousy over Hondo/Cousy. I know Hondo/Cousy only played together for one year I believe, but that combo (taking in individual talents like I said) is better. Ya know they say that a great debater can argue both sides of the argument. That line is supposed to hint to something incase anyone didn't know.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting "sunsfan1357":</div><div class="quote_post">Wow. I'm surprised that there isn't an uproar that I put a backcourt of Jones/Cousy over Hondo/Cousy. Ya know they say that a great debater can argue both sides of the argument. That line is supposed to hint to something incase anyone didn't know.</div>Yes, you are a great debater, unlike I am. I voted you #1 in the poster Mock Draft. But I agreed with you saying Jones and Cousy is better than Hondo and Cousy. Hondo backed up a lot.

BTW - Why can't we just call him Havlicek? Hondo is getting on my nerves.

 

Havlicek did back up a lot, but I said individual talents and he is just better than Jones. I know I made this whole thing confusing but I wanted to see how far I can go with this.

Also, I always so Hondo because I keep forgetting how to spell Havlicek

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting "sunsfan1357":</div><div class="quote_post">Havlicek did back up a lot, but I said individual talents and he is just better than Jones. I know I made this whole thing confusing but I wanted to see how far I can go with this.

Also, I always so Hondo because I keep forgetting how to spell Havlicek </div>I don't know about that. I have seen them both play and I would call Jones the better talent.

 

Havlicek was way more of a complete player. He can do it all: rebound, pass, score, hustle. He was probably one of the most hungry players in the league. I think I saw on ESPN Classic one time that people realized Havlicek moved around so much on the court because of his hustle that he ran the equivlant of I think 6 miles in one game.

 

they were both incredible. a great debater knows that. hint hint

 

im sorry but they arent THE best. payton isnt even in his prime. drexler & porter
monroe & frazier
cousy & Jones
cousy & havlicek


all better

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting "shapecity":</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe & Payton are one the greatest. I agree with Sunsfan that Monroe & Frazier are probably the closest to challenge. I also liked the backcourt of Tim Hardaway & Mitch Richmond. RUN TMC!!!

Rolando Blackman & Ron Harper was also tough.
Drexeler & Porter
Thomas & Dumars</div>I don't know if you don't like the Celtics or something, but you have to consider Cousy and Jones over pretty much all of those guard combinations. Run TMC was awesome, but not top five of all time in my opinion. Mullin could also be considered a backcourt player in a certain sense.