I don't think anyone should even bother taking the time to reply to that garbage. But I will anyways... Playing the most playoff games also means you're team is advancing in the playoffs. So by your awsome formula the guy who gets swept in the first round every year is less of a failure than Steve Nash. And the guy who doesn't even make the playoffs? He's better as well.
How did he not choke? He got 3 Allstars in his team. Marion, Amare and himself. A NBA sixth man Barbosa, a MIP Diaw, an All NBA defensive team flopper Raja bell. Don't forget Nash and Amare are also in the first NBA team. They are together for 3 years and they are still at "ground zero" lol. Nash can't even lead his team to the finals with all that talent.You will say it is Nash who make his teammates better so they can get all those award. Please do not discredit all their effort. Amare was rising star before Nash came, Marion was already a 20/10 player, Kurt Thomas is capable of giving you 10/10 every game. I can say it is SUns players who make Nash better on stats. Nash is supposed to be the best NBA players now who almost got his 3rd striaght MVP, who got 3 points in the first 3 quarters in game 6 and started scoring when the game was already over, who blow a 20 pts lead in game 5. How did he not choke? face it or continue your blind support.
There are many elements that go into building a championship team. There are also great players, hall of fame player, who never won a ring, but whom you would never define as chokers. Reggie Miller, for example, was one of the clutch defining players of his generation, and one of the best shooting guards of all time. No championship. Was this his fault? Maybe in the sense that he remained loyal to Indiana rather than chase a ring elsewhere, but when it came time to play, he gave his team everything he had. Charles Barkley, also. Does the fact that he was outdueled by Michael Jordan and a dominant Bulls team mean that he himself choked? There are obvious differences between a great player giving his all to a team but not being able to get it done, and a player choking. John Starks choked. Dirk Nowitzki choked. Steve Nash didn't choke. Tim Duncan was just too much.
Anybody notice the coincidence that other than the Spurs fans, Lakers fans are the only other fans who won't concede the fact that the Spurs were handed the series. Why you ask? Because they hold a stupid grudge due to the fact that Nash has 2 MVPs to Kobe's 0, and the Suns have taken out the Lakers in consecutive years. Understand that we realize this, and that's why nobody really takes you're opinions or ridiculous statements seriously (I'm talkin some Laker fans, guys like Shape have managed to stay unpartisan). Nash choked? Get that garbage out of here. So I guess Malone and Stockton choked because they couldn't get by Jordan and the Bulls or Magic? Sometimes the other team is just better (unfortunately thats not the case in this series).
<div class="quote_poster">XSV Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Anybody notice the coincidence that other than the Spurs fans, Lakers fans are the only other fans who won't concede the fact that the Spurs were handed the series. Why you ask? Because they hold a stupid grudge due to the fact that Nash has 2 MVPs to Kobe's 0, and the Suns have taken out the Lakers in consecutive years. Understand that we realize this, and that's why nobody really takes you're opinions or ridiculous statements seriously (I'm talkin some Laker fans, guys like Shape have managed to stay unpartisan). Nash choked? Get that garbage out of here. So I guess Malone and Stockton choked because they couldn't get by Jordan and the Bulls or Magic? Sometimes the other team is just better (unfortunately thats not the case in this series).</div> You're non partisan? Don't you still claim that Wade's team won cleanly? Yes the Suns got somewhat screwed but the Spurs have been dominating the Suns for a while now anyway (I mentioned other reasons why the Suns wouldn't win in another post).
I believe the Heat won cleanly. In every series there are crap calls (the Spurs-Pistons finals had quite a few questionable calls), but taking away a 2 key players on a team, while blatantly ignoring the other teams' stars transgression is just too over the top.
<div class="quote_poster">XSV Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I believe the Heat won cleanly. In every series there are crap calls (the Spurs-Pistons finals had quite a few questionable calls), but taking away a 2 key players on a team, while blatantly ignoring the other teams' stars transgression is just too over the top.</div> Uh right.... 46 FTs in two games (where the Heat barely won) is winning cleanly? You just preached to me in another thread on why my Laker bias blinds me. I think any non-Wade fan would know that you're being hypocritical.
<div class="quote_poster">XSV Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Nash choked? Get that garbage out of here. So I guess Malone and Stockton choked because they couldn't get by Jordan and the Bulls or Magic? Sometimes the other team is just better (unfortunately thats not the case in this series).</div> Nash did nth wrong when they lost the series. It was just because of all other players like Amare, Marion, Barbosa, Raja Bell, and Kurt Thomas. They Suck. When the Suns win, it is only because of Nash and he is the MVP. Nash is god and no one should criticize him.....very cool
<div class="quote_poster">TopLake Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Nash did nth wrong when they lost the series. It was just because of all other players like Amare, Marion, Barbosa, Raja Bell, and Kurt Thomas. They Suck. When the Suns win, it is only because of Nash and he is the MVP. Nash is god and no one should criticize him.....very cool</div> Lol, I almost missed your sarcastic tone.
I love the fact that some people fail to realize that even if Amare and Diaw weren't suspended, game 5 still had to be played. Who is to say that the Spurs wouldn't have won? Why is it so hard for people to understand that Diaw and Amare violated a rule that calls for a suspension. Players have been suspended in the past, why would they change that? Amare acknowledged his wrongs. Get over it. Let me guess XSV, Barbosa was warned by Stern to stink it up all series or he'd be suspended? Marion couldn't shoulder the load left by Amare? Bell couldn't stand the other team having a defender more dirty than him? The Suns had a minimal shot in the series at full strength, the Spurs are just the better team in a seven game series. The Suns aren't built to win 4 out of 7 games against a top caliber team. It's been proven over and over again.
I think most of the criticism of this rule was that it’s extremely arbitrary. That rule is a rule bs doesn’t hold much weight as we can all see that the rule is flawed. For a group of fans who have been screwed over by the league office before I’m surprised to see such great support of Stew Jackson’s decisions. Also, win or lose any team with Diaw and Amare is much better. That’s the point, so your chances of winning are much better regardless of whether it actually happens or not. Everything else aside, Spurs won and the Suns lost. We’re there some events in this series that changed the way things played out? Definitely. But there’s no shame in losing to a team like the Spurs who have had so much success. To me the main factor that tipped this series was that no one on the Suns could even come close to guarding Duncan in the post. He shot an extremely high percentage all series and even when he wasn’t scoring he was blocking shots, forcing a double team, and doing other stuff that just made the Suns scramble like crazy. If you want to come up with some story how Steve Nash “choked” while averaging around 20 ppg and 12 apg for the series your entitled to your opinion but I don’t see much of a case for that.
<div class="quote_poster">TopLake Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">How did he not choke? He got 3 Allstars in his team. Marion, Amare and himself. A NBA sixth man Barbosa, a MIP Diaw, an All NBA defensive team flopper Raja bell. Don't forget Nash and Amare are also in the first NBA team. They are together for 3 years and they are still at "ground zero" lol. Nash can't even lead his team to the finals with all that talent.You will say it is Nash who make his teammates better so they can get all those award. Please do not discredit all their effort. Amare was rising star before Nash came, Marion was already a 20/10 player, Kurt Thomas is capable of giving you 10/10 every game. I can say it is SUns players who make Nash better on stats. Nash is supposed to be the best NBA players now who almost got his 3rd striaght MVP, who got 3 points in the first 3 quarters in game 6 and started scoring when the game was already over, who blow a 20 pts lead in game 5. How did he not choke? face it or continue your blind support.</div> I don't understand where you got this impression that Nash doesn't get criticized. He recieves his fair share of criticism and I would argue that winning 2 MVP's that weren't unanimously agreed upon has left him prone to more criticism than usual. He gets a lot of negative attention about his defense and, despite the fact that he's taken steps to improve it, people describe it in an exaggerated way at times. He gets criticism for his turnovers. And people pick up on stretches where he doesn't shoot the ball well (like the end of Game 5). As for this idea that he's completely at fault for the Suns inability to win a championship, I don't see much merit to it for a few reasons. First of all, you have to pick what a side: either Nash deserves most of the credit for the Suns success or he deserves to share it with the rest of his talented teammates. Too often, I see people criticize Nash's MVP awards, because of his supporting cast, but then they turn around and blame him for their lack of a title (you just did that in this paragraph). That's a contradiction. If he doesn't deserve all the credit, then he doesn't deserve all of the blame. You can't have it both ways. Secondly, Nash doesn't have the same role as other players who get criticized for their team's playoff losses. He's the team's primary distributor and his main job is to put his teammates in positions to score. Part of the reason he's such a good PG is because of his scoring ability, but that's really a way to complement his passing. The other players you mentioned (Kobe, Dirk, McGrady, etc.) are their teams' primary scorers, so if a game comes down to a few possessions and they end up losing, they usually had a much bigger role in that loss. Nash can set his teammates up, but he can't make them produce. That's on their shoulders. The same thing applies for other franchise point guards (I'm thinking of Jason Kidd here). Kidd can have an outstanding statline and facillitate the offense, but he can't do much else if VC or RJ go through terrible shooting nights (which is what happened in the Cleveland series). And finally, you're not taking into account how strong the West is at the top. As a13x already mentioned, the fact that he's played so many playoff games without a championship also means that he's had to win a lot of playoff games. There's a difference between losing in the first round and losing in the 2nd and 3rd round, when you're facing the Spurs or Mavericks (not this year's). Those 3 teams are all very evenly matched and their series' come down to the wire. When you think about it, this is really the first year that the Suns were included among those 2, as a legit championship contender, yet Nash has had them in the later rounds for quite some time now.
<div class="quote_poster">Mamba Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Chutney, I didn't post that Toplake, did.</div> lol, my mistake. Its that damn avatar that gets me mixed up.
Nah, I know fans will always criticize including Nash. But i just think that media always has too much love on Nash. If he is that good, how could he fail to lead his team to the finals in 3 straight years with that kind of talent? Why is Tim Duncan never received that much compliment and not be a MVP candidate? People also fail to realize that other Suns players are also playing great throughout the year. I hate hearing all the success are because of Nash whenever i am watching the Suns game lol
<div class="quote_poster">TopLake Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Nah, I know fans will always criticize including Nash. But i just think that media always has too much love on Nash. If he is that good, how could he fail to lead his team to the finals in 3 straight years with that kind of talent? Why is Tim Duncan never received that much compliment and not be a MVP candidate? People also fail to realize that other Suns players are also playing great throughout the year. I hate hearing all the success are because of Nash whenever i am watching the Suns game lol</div> I can understand that frustration, but we all know what the media is like. We could sit here and list out the problems and contradiction with the sports media, but it'd be a waste of time. The problem I have with this idea that Nash deserves the majority of the blame for Phoenix' inability to get to the finals, is that its short-sighted and really doesn't take into account all the factors. As a Lakers fan, I'm sure you'd be frustrated with people who place all the blame on Kobe Bryant for LA's first round exits. Its just unfair to solely target him when his teammates are so crappy. I look at this situation in a similar way. Obviously its not exactly the same, because Nash's teammates are very good, but both criticisms conveniently ignore the truth. In retrospect, its easy to say that Nash has wasted 3 years trying to make the finals with such an amazing supporting cast. But this is really the first year that they were considered championship contenders. Their first season with Nash was a surprise and no one expected them to be that good, yet they still managed to make some noise in the playoffs. They didn't have Amare in their second season and were basically playing Golden State style basketball with more talent, and they managed to make it to the Conference Finals. And now, in the first year where people thought they had a good chance to go all the way, they lost to the Spurs in what should have been a Conference Finals matchup (because of the League's refusal to re-seed after each round). But, some untimely suspensions hurt them badly and, really, how much can you fault the Suns for losing to the Spurs? When it comes to those 3 top teams, its really a crapshoot. Nobody said the Spurs choked when they lost to Dallas last year, because it was just one excellent team beating another excellent team in a very close series. And the same applies to this year's Suns, IMO.
Chutney knows what he's talking about... very good points. I'd also like to point out Phoenix had injury problems in their first 2 runs to the WCF. This year the NBA front office screwed the Suns from having a fair shot. Unfortunately Nash isn't a doctor nor does he have any blackmail photos on David Stern, so he didn't have the ability to overcome those obstacles. Again why hate on Nash if your real problem is with the media's lack of criticism on him? He makes $10 million per year, about half of the $20 million Kobe, KG, McGrady and the rest that you mentioned make, plus he's been out of the first round lately. He isn't on every commercial, he doesn't have his own shoe, he doesn't have the ego that those guys do, he's a team player who stays out of trouble and doesn't make SportsCenter every time he opens his mouth, so I don't think he deserves to be criticised. Not to mention he's won 5 Playoff series in the last 3 years compared to NONE by these other guys combined! If you think Nash choked what do you say about Kobe who missed the Playoffs and has been bounced two years in a row in the FIRST ROUND? Or KG who hasn't made the Playoffs in 4 years! Or T-Mac who has NEVER won a first round series? What's worse than choke? Dead? Cause that's how you'd have to describe them if you claim Nash, whose made it to the WCF 2 years and may have made it again (if not further) had the NBA not ignored the 2 Spurs who also got off their bench, has choked.
Chutney, I have some serious issues with some of your points. <div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I can understand that frustration, but we all know what the media is like. We could sit here and list out the problems and contradiction with the sports media, but it'd be a waste of time. The problem I have with this idea that Nash deserves the majority of the blame for Phoenix' inability to get to the finals, is that its short-sighted and really doesn't take into account all the factors. As a Lakers fan, I'm sure you'd be frustrated with people who place all the blame on Kobe Bryant for LA's first round exits. Its just unfair to solely target him when his teammates are so crappy. I look at this situation in a similar way. Obviously its not exactly the same, because Nash's teammates are very good, but both criticisms conveniently ignore the truth. In retrospect, its easy to say that Nash has wasted 3 years trying to make the finals with such an amazing supporting cast. But this is really the first year that they were considered championship contenders. Their first season with Nash was a surprise and no one expected them to be that good, yet they still managed to make some noise in the playoffs. They didn't have Amare in their second season and were basically playing Golden State style basketball with more talent, and they managed to make it to the Conference Finals. And now, in the first year where people thought they had a good chance to go all the way, they lost to the Spurs in what should have been a Conference Finals matchup (because of the League's refusal to re-seed after each round). But, some untimely suspensions hurt them badly and, really, how much can you fault the Suns for losing to the Spurs? When it comes to those 3 top teams, its really a crapshoot. Nobody said the Spurs choked when they lost to Dallas last year, because it was just one excellent team beating another excellent team in a very close series. And the same applies to this year's Suns, IMO.</div> What do you mean the Suns made noise in the playoffs in Nash's first year there? They were the number one seed and were totally owned by the Spurs in five games. The Suns were terrible in that series in spite of their elite talent. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Secondly, Nash doesn't have the same role as other players who get criticized for their team's playoff losses. He's the team's primary distributor and his main job is to put his teammates in positions to score. Part of the reason he's such a good PG is because of his scoring ability, but that's really a way to complement his passing. The other players you mentioned (Kobe, Dirk, McGrady, etc.) are their teams' primary scorers, so if a game comes down to a few possessions and they end up losing, they usually had a much bigger role in that loss. Nash can set his teammates up, but he can't make them produce. That's on their shoulders. The same thing applies for other franchise point guards (I'm thinking of Jason Kidd here). Kidd can have an outstanding statline and facillitate the offense, but he can't do much else if VC or RJ go through terrible shooting nights (which is what happened in the Cleveland series).</div> He really doesn't sound like an MVP they way you worded this paragraph. Nash can choose to be a scorer or distributor anyway so I'm not really buying this. And yes it is obnoxious how people bother Kobe for not winning, but at the same time I'm not completely blaming Nash for the PHX losses these last three years. The real truth is that he just isn't a Tim Duncan caliber player that can dominate both sides of the ball (I don't need to bring up Kobe being a better player than Nash because he's a controversial figure, etc. and I'm sick of Bryant debates).
