1. Duncan 2. McHale 3,4,5 (three way tie) -Malone -Barkley -KG* *first title solidified him as a top 5. One more will put him at #3
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ Jun 18 2008, 11:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>[quote name='Run BJM' post='1630767' And I completely disagree with people who are still criticizing Garnett. Most of you probably just watched the Finals because in the previous rounds he was being aggressive and attacking the rim. I dunno what you were watching.</div> Thrilla (IIRC), and other Celtic fans have said he is a high-post player in general.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ Jun 18 2008, 11:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>But that's what separates Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan and Shaquille O'neal..really all-time greats and probably top 10 players to ever play the game from Kevin Garnett or David Robinson, great all-around players but not going to take over the game for you offensively or carry a championship team on his shoulders. People need to realize that those three players I just mentioned (Duncan, O'Neal and Olajuwon) are honestly the only big men/7 footers that have been able to at the snap of the fingers dominate a game and takeover at a championship level in the way that a wing player does in the last 20 years or so. Kevin Garnett never was, never will be this kind of player. But was Charles Barkley? Or Kevin McHale? Those two were two of the best post players to play but they were nowhere near the all-around force that Garnett is. His defense sets him apart. His defense was great throughout the playoffs and that STILL goes unnoticed. And I completely disagree with people who are still criticizing Garnett. Most of you probably just watched the Finals because in the previous rounds he was being aggressive and attacking the rim. I dunno what you were watching.</div> I mostly agree with what you're saying. IMO though Duncan has the talent to be a Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq type of presence but he just doesn't impose his will. Its disappointing to see. You're right though, thats not his game and it never will be, a lot of people are just coming to this realization but its driven me nuts for the last decade how people have the balls to compare KG to Duncan. No doubt KGs a great defender and rebounder but the truly great ones do that, plus dominate offensively. IMO KG could be a dominant offensive player but instead he goes for the fadeaway jumpshots, 18 foot jumpshots, etc. My point is that KG won a championship but it doesn't really mean that much to me because he wasn't the guy. Pierce was the one who was unstoppable scoring, playing great defense on Kobe, raising his game to new levels, and dominating the playoffs. Yeah, he won a championship but he wasn't the focal point of the team. Barkley, Malone, etc. probably could have done that if they played on a stacked team where they were the 2nd option like the Celtics are with KG.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jun 18 2008, 11:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ Jun 18 2008, 11:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>[quote name='Run BJM' post='1630767' And I completely disagree with people who are still criticizing Garnett. Most of you probably just watched the Finals because in the previous rounds he was being aggressive and attacking the rim. I dunno what you were watching.</div> Thrilla (IIRC), and other Celtic fans have said he is a high-post player in general. </div> Yes..he is. Most of his shots are J's from about 18 feet out. But he still attacked the basket in previous series much more than he did in the Finals, MUCH MORE against Detroit especially. I think he really wanted to in Game 5 and I think somebody got in his ear telling him he needs to attack but he couldn't because of foul trouble. It is what it is, he's not going to change. The problem is he shoots away from the basket when he does get to the low post but they go in a lot of the time. He does it and shows signs but he's never gonna do it consistently.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Run BJM @ Jun 18 2008, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Pierce was the one who was unstoppable scoring, playing great defense on Kobe, raising his game to new levels, and dominating the playoffs. Yeah, he won a championship but he wasn't the focal point of the team. Barkley, Malone, etc. probably could have done that if they played on a stacked team where they were the 2nd option like the Celtics are with KG.</div> Unstoppable doesn't seem like the correct word, he had his struggles on offense but he had an overall nice game. Pierce didn't "dominate" the entire playoffs Run. It was a team effort, and great defense from KG, etc., that got this title in Boston.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ Jun 18 2008, 11:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jun 18 2008, 11:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ Jun 18 2008, 11:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>[quote name='Run BJM' post='1630767' And I completely disagree with people who are still criticizing Garnett. Most of you probably just watched the Finals because in the previous rounds he was being aggressive and attacking the rim. I dunno what you were watching.</div> Thrilla (IIRC), and other Celtic fans have said he is a high-post player in general. </div> Yes..he is. Most of his shots are J's from about 18 feet out. But he still attacked the basket in previous series much more than he did in the Finals, MUCH MORE against Detroit especially. I think he really wanted to in Game 5 and I think somebody got in his ear telling him he needs to attack but he couldn't because of foul trouble. It is what it is, he's not going to change. The problem is he shoots away from the basket when he does get to the low post but they go in a lot of the time. He does it and shows signs but he's never gonna do it consistently. </div> Well Kobe played better than anyone else in the first three rounds, but people will trash him for the Finals. I don't think people care as much about his earlier work.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Run BJM @ Jun 18 2008, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ Jun 18 2008, 11:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>But that's what separates Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan and Shaquille O'neal..really all-time greats and probably top 10 players to ever play the game from Kevin Garnett or David Robinson, great all-around players but not going to take over the game for you offensively or carry a championship team on his shoulders. People need to realize that those three players I just mentioned (Duncan, O'Neal and Olajuwon) are honestly the only big men/7 footers that have been able to at the snap of the fingers dominate a game and takeover at a championship level in the way that a wing player does in the last 20 years or so. Kevin Garnett never was, never will be this kind of player. But was Charles Barkley? Or Kevin McHale? Those two were two of the best post players to play but they were nowhere near the all-around force that Garnett is. His defense sets him apart. His defense was great throughout the playoffs and that STILL goes unnoticed. And I completely disagree with people who are still criticizing Garnett. Most of you probably just watched the Finals because in the previous rounds he was being aggressive and attacking the rim. I dunno what you were watching.</div> I mostly agree with what you're saying. IMO though Duncan has the talent to be a Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq type of presence but he just doesn't impose his will. Its disappointing to see. You're right though, thats not his game and it never will be, a lot of people are just coming to this realization but its driven me nuts for the last decade how people have the balls to compare KG to Duncan. No doubt KGs a great defender and rebounder but the truly great ones do that, plus dominate offensively. IMO KG could be a dominant offensive player but instead he goes for the fadeaway jumpshots, 18 foot jumpshots, etc. My point is that KG won a championship but it doesn't really mean that much to me because he wasn't the guy. Pierce was the one who was unstoppable scoring, playing great defense on Kobe, raising his game to new levels, and dominating the playoffs. Yeah, he won a championship but he wasn't the focal point of the team. Barkley, Malone, etc. probably could have done that if they played on a stacked team where they were the 2nd option like the Celtics are with KG. </div> I see what you're saying, no doubt. I have the same concerns about Garnett that everyone of his critics has. I just don't say "Garnot" because when you say stuff like that you completely ignore his intensity, drive to win, his defensive DOMINANCE and his aggressiveness on the boards. He does so many other things well and most big men throughout the history have always deferred to wing players and shooters, except for the few I mentioned Duncan, Shaq, Olajuwon..plus Kareem, Wilt etc that I can pretty much guarantee nobody here extensively watched. But I mean you rank McHale over Garnett but Garnett was a much better overall player than McHale. McHale was one of the greatest if not the greatest low-post player of all-time..but was he a better player overall than Garnett. Bird was always the man with Boston, it was never ever McHale. Does McHale get slack just because he won three rings? I mean I ranked him above Garnett but I would take KG to build a team around over McHale and Barkley any day.
Pierce was phenomenal in clinching games though. And remember that he had to guard (at times) Joe Johnson, LeBron James, Tayshaun Prince, and finally Kobe. And he outplayed them in those clinching games. Thats counts as something doesn't it?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticKing @ Jun 18 2008, 11:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Pierce was phenomenal in clinching games though. And remember that he had to guard (at times) Joe Johnson, LeBron James, Tayshaun Prince, and finally Kobe. And he outplayed them in those clinching games. Thats counts as something doesn't it?</div> Sure it does, I simply didn't agree with some semantics. Run is usually pretty right about almost anything.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ Jun 18 2008, 11:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>But that's what separates Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan and Shaquille O'neal..really all-time greats and probably top 10 players to ever play the game from Kevin Garnett or David Robinson, great all-around players but not going to take over the game for you offensively or carry a championship team on his shoulders. People need to realize that those three players I just mentioned (Duncan, O'Neal and Olajuwon) are honestly the only big men/7 footers that have been able to at the snap of the fingers dominate a game and takeover at a championship level in the way that a wing player does in the last 20 years or so. Kevin Garnett never was, never will be this kind of player. But was Charles Barkley? Or Kevin McHale? Those two were two of the best post players to play but they were nowhere near the all-around force that Garnett is. His defense sets him apart. His defense was great throughout the playoffs and that STILL goes unnoticed. And I completely disagree with people who are still criticizing Garnett. Most of you probably just watched the Finals because in the previous rounds he was being aggressive and attacking the rim. I dunno what you were watching.</div> McHale was a defensive force in the Post. He was a 3 time 1st team all defensive team and 2 time 2nd team. He was one of the best defenders at PF ever. His post game is equal to Hakeem and Tim Duncan's as best post game ever. His number are lower only because of the talent on the Celtics up front with Bird and Parish. I still consider McHale better than Garnett because he could get you a good shot or a trip to the FT line from the post in crunch time. KG is more than likely to pass it up or settle for a bad jumper too often. KG is more versatile because today's game emphasizes that. I just disagree that doing more thing well is ALWAYS better than doing a few things great. Flipping KG and McHale between #4 and #5 on an all time PF list is acceptable IMO. Putting either ahead of barkley, malone or Duncan is silly.
You guys are terrible. Shawn Kemp is clearly #1. Terrible list. Anyways, I don't like ranking PFs, because I easily get PFs and Cs confused. Such as Timmy D, I wanna call him a C. Why not just rank big men? Or am I just too dumb for this thread?
Garnett has always been the type of person you'd love to have in your organization but you can't start an organization with him. As dozens of others have said, Garnett is the ultimate Robin. He pumps up his teammates, he shows intensity and leaves his emotions on the court - all of these characteristics make him the best teammate you can ever wish for. The problem is that all the players mentioned were (or are) THE guys on their team. They are what the team lives and dies by. Garnett has never been that type of player. He is a lot like McHale, a secondary superstar. Not a star, a SUPERSTAR -- but still a secondary one. Garnett's game is too flawed for him to be a true superstar and #1 option on offense. He shoots way too many jumpers of all sorts. This season, 72% of his shots were jumpers. That is inexcusable for a big man who is mentioned as one of the greatest to ever play the game. And it's not an effect of him just getting older. Even during 2002-2003 campaign, when he was 27 years old, Garnett shot 81% jumpers. Compare it to Duncan, who shot 54% J's and 42% close shots. Basically, when it comes to team basketball concepts, offensively and defensively, Garnett would rightfully be ranked in the top echelon of Power Forwards to ever play the game. But when it comes to judge Garnett the player, individually, in my eyes Garnett will never approach Duncan, Barkley, Malone and company. Combining these ratings, Garnett will always hover around that 5th spot in my eyes. It would take Bill Russell like history of accomplishment for him to move up. Russell was the same kind of player, but the man was an ultimate winner no matter what happened to his team. Injuries, off court issues, problems, virtually everything happened to Russell's teams. Russell was the only player from those Boston teams to have played on the first and last championship teams. Unfortunately for Garnett, he doesn't have that record of accomplishment. And while the Minny GM should take a portion of the blame for it, the bottom line is that he didn't deliver until he got 2 other absolute SUPERSTARS on his team.
my list 1. Tim Duncan 2. Karl Malone 3. Charles Barkley 4. Kevin Mchale 5. Kevin Garnett still behind i believe, and the fact that he really didnt lead them to the ring didnt help, just my opinion...and I can't believe some of you guys put Duncan 5th on the top 5 all time lol, that's crazy
The championship doesn't change my opinion of him at all. In fact, it solidifies it. On a championship team, he is a 2nd banana. You can't find any reasonable way to justify putting him in the same class as Tim Duncan.
Now where does he rank all time? Is he one of the top 25 players of all time? well it comes down to what he does in Boston. Being with an expansion team that couldn't acquire the proper players to help him out will lessen his accomplishments, just as it has for other great players who never played on a winner. If he can make or win a finals with the Celtics, his legacy changes a great deal IMO. I think we have to list who would be in a top 25-30 players to see how close he is or isn't. in some sembelance of order, but not killing myself to get it nailed down. 1. Wilt 2. Jordan 3. Russell 4. Kareem 5. Larry 5. Magic (i'll always call this a tie) 7. Hakeem 8. Oscar 9. Moses Malone 10 Karl Malone 11 Tim Duncan 12 Jerry West 13 John Stockton 14 Isiah Thomas 15 Dr. J 16 Bob Cousy 17 Bob Petit 18 Elgin Baylor 19 John Havlicek 20 Elvin Hayes 21 Kobe Bryant 22 Allen Iverson 23 Shaq (should be higher, slipped my mind) 24 Pippen 25 KG, Kidd, David Robinson or Clyde Drexler IMO soo KG would most likely be top 30 of all time. depending on how you see it. who's in your top 25?
There are too damn many players to come up with a list like that. It's very difficult to exclude people like George Mikan, Pete Maravich and Charles Barkley from a top 20 list. Allen Iverson should have no business being around Top 40.
27.7 ppg, 6.3 apg, 2.3 spg, 3.8 rpg, Finals apperance, MVP seem like great numbers to me. toss in 29.7 ppg and 6.0 apg in 71 playoff games to boot. his FG% is poor though. maravich and Mikan are top 50 IMO, barkley.. I'd agree he should be top 30ish.. I plumb forgot to put him in there.
