12 Year Old Boy with fake gun dies after shot by Ohio officer

[BigGameDamian]

http://news.yahoo.com/boy-fake-gun-dies-shot-ohio-officer-170034176.html

A 12-year-old boy brandishing what turned out to be a replica gun died Sunday after he was shot by a Cleveland police officer responding to a 911 call about a person waving a gun in a park.

Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said the officer fired twice after the boy pulled the fake weapon — which was lacking the orange safety indicator usually on the muzzle — from his waistband.

The boy did not make any verbal threats toward the officer or point the gun, but reached into his waistband and grabbed it after being told to raise his hands, Tomba said.

"That's when the officer fired," he said.

Police said the weapon was an "airsoft" type replica gun that resembled a semi-automatic pistol. The orange safety indicator had been removed, police said.

A man who called 911 told dispatchers before police arrived that the boy was on a swing set and pointing a pistol that was "probably fake" and scaring everyone.

The caller said the boy was pulling the gun in and out of his pants. "I don't know if it's real or not," the caller said.

Jeff Follmer, president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association, said the officers were not told the caller thought the gun might be fake.

The officer called to the park saw the pistol sitting on a table, and watched the boy grab it and put it in his waistband, Follmer said.

The hospital where the boy died and an attorney for his family would not release his name on Sunday.

Attorney Timothy Kucharski said the boy went to the park with friends Saturday afternoon, but he did not know the details of what led to the shooting. "I don't want to make a rush to judgment," he said.

He said he wants to talk to witnesses and get more facts. "We're ultimately going to find out what happened," Kucharski said.

 

[BigGameDamian]

Hate to bring this up but the cop was white and the boy that was shot is black.

 

[speeds]

Reginald VelJohnson's character in Die Hard made a similar mistake. The gun looked real. It haunted him. He eventually redeemed himself by shooting Sasha Godunov.

 

[julius]

Reginald VelJohnson's character in Die Hard made a similar mistake. The gun looked real. It haunted him. He eventually redeemed himself by shooting Sasha Godunov.

So what we need to do for this cop is have some German terrorists...

On a serious note, it's sad that this kid was shot and died. I can't imagine what that does to someones mental makeup, especially to someone so young.

 

[blue32]

First, I can understand why they didn't get the 'fake' report in the call. It probably went out of dispatch as a suspect in park w/gun (description of suspect) and that's about it.
Second, if indeed the kid pulled the gun out while the cop asked for his hands to be in the air, then I can understand why he shot.

It's a tough situation to be in, because if he hadn't shot and say the gun was real and the kid took it out in a split second the kid could have fired towards the officers or anyone else in the park. Now lets say that some cop then got hit, or an innocent bystander got shot, then whose fault is it for not shooting the kid?

The police officer was fucked either way in this situation.

And honestly the real criminal here is the kids parent(s). Airsoft gun w/no orange marker is fine, if you're in the privacy of your own home, but allowing them to take that shit to a park? Idiot.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Scared cop = dead child.

What the hell is wrong with the way they train law-enforcement? This kind of thing never used to happen.

 

[MARIS61]

Kid made no threatening move according to the report. Just had a toy gun as is his right. Age isn't the issue here. Neither is race. Neither is the fact it's a toy. There was no reported reason to shoot anyone.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

The gun likely was this, but the Orange part that alerts officers that it's a fake gun was removed.

It's basic fucking knowledge you don't remove that shit and wave it out in public. Has been since I was a kid.

 

[MARIS61]

The gun likely was this, but the Orange part that alerts officers that it's a fake gun was removed.

It's basic fucking knowledge you don't remove that shit and wave it out in public. Has been since I was a kid.

By what authority?

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

By what authority?

Common sense and making sure you don't get shot.

 

[blue32]

I'm curious, is carrying a toy gun to the park illegal now?

Why are you curious about that? That's pretty fucking straight forward. The answer is "no".

The question you should be curious about is this:

What does a police officer do when there is a person that is told to hold up their arms and freeze, but instead reaches into their waistband and grabs the gun.

 

[blue32]

Scared cop is what I'm thinking as well. All these cops who were so scared for their lives they had to shoot and killed grandmas slapping at them, kids with toy guns who weren't even threatening, people wielding knives standing 30 feet away, and shooting at dogs that barked menacingly, perhaps you shouldn't be wearing a badge if you're so chicken shit that your first response to every minor threat is to kill people.

Minor threat? Scared Cop?

Dude come on. The orange tip was removed, the person was 12 years old and we don't know how large the person was. Maybe the person was as big as the officer, who knows, kids grow fast now-a-days. The report was he was waving around a gun at a park (not a minor threat).

Scared or not, the dude reached for the gun when they were told to put up their hands. The failure here is on the parents and kid, not the police.

Had that person reached for their gun, fired off a shot and it hit a bystander, you'd be singing a different tune.

Edit: Funny how people in other places say they should have tried to tase the suspect. Ya right, LOL. Those things have such a spread at range there is no way you're making good contact. Aside from the fact that police are always trained to use one level of force higher than the suspect. So a taser was out of the question.

 

[MARIS61]

Common sense and making sure you don't get shot.

I open carry a real gun (with no orange plug), and achieve the same result.

Dozens of LEO's have seen me shopping at BiMart or checking out audio books at the library, with a pistol on my belt, and never felt the need to even comment on it let alone shoot me. BECAUSE THEY SUPPORT THE SECOND AMENDMENT AND EVERYONE'S RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS.

 

[MARIS61]

Why are you curious about that? That's pretty fucking straight forward. The answer is "no".

The question you should be curious about is this:

What does a police officer do when there is a person that is told to hold up their arms and freeze, but instead reaches into their waistband and grabs the gun.

Apologize for unnecessarily frightening them?

 

[MARIS61]

Minor threat? Scared Cop?

Dude come on. The orange tip was removed, the person was 12 years old and we don't know how large the person was. Maybe the person was as big as the officer, who knows, kids grow fast now-a-days. The report was he was waving around a gun at a park (not a minor threat).

Right about that. Not a minor threat, NO THREAT AT ALL. Look the word up.

Scared or not, the dude reached for the gun when they were told to put up their hands. The failure here is on the parents and kid, not the police.

The police have no right to give orders to law abiding citizens, regardless of their age. Law abiding citizens have no duty to obey arbitrary orders from policemen.

Had that person reached for their gun, fired off a shot and it hit a bystander, you'd be singing a different tune.

Uh, what part of "air-soft" don't you understand?

I'd be singing a different tune if he dialed his cell phone setting off explosives and blowing up the Statue of Liberty.

But he didn't.

Edit: Funny how people in other places say they should have tried to tase the suspect. Ya right, LOL. Those things have such a spread at range there is no way you're making good contact. Aside from the fact that police are always trained to use one level of force higher than the suspect. So a taser was out of the question.

A taser is quite a few levels of force higher than an air-soft toy gun.

 

[blue32]

Right about that. Not a minor threat, NO THREAT AT ALL. Look the word up.




The police have no right to give orders to law abiding citizens, regardless of their age. Law abiding citizens have no duty to obey arbitrary orders from policemen.



Uh, what part of "air-soft" don't you understand?

I'd be singing a different tune if he dialed his cell phone setting off explosives and blowing up the Statue of Liberty.

But he didn't.



A taser is quite a few levels of force higher than an air-soft toy gun.

This is real funny actually because lets go ahead and put your kids (if you have/had any) in a situation where someone of unknown age to you (or the police) is waving around an airsoft gun that are meant to look like EXACT replicas of real guns, and pointing it at persons.

Now you go ahead and tell me that this suspect is not a threat. You're full of shit. The person was pointing it at people! Hell, what is the difference between doing it at a park and at a mall? He'd probably have gotten killed by a CHL member in the mall though! And you'd probably praise that!

Anyway, Air-Soft or not, the gun had its ORANGE marker removed. The thing looks exactly like a real gun, have you not seen one before? I have.

Look up levels of force and police procedure, and also look up how effective a taser is at range. Then you also tell me if you're going to bring a taser to a possible gun fight. Again you'd be full of shit.

Kids/people of all ages shoot other people. Hello school shootings. The cops in this situation were in the right.

 

[blue32]

Then why are the boy's parents the "real criminals"? As far as I know, buying a toy gun for your child is not a crime. Allowing him to go play with it is not a crime either. Yet you seem quick to denounce the parents as criminals. A little irresponsible? I don't think so, but maybe. Certainly no criminals.


The article states that the boy never pointed the gun at the officers nor was he threatening them (you do have the rights to run around with a toy gun like idiots without being harassed by the police). Seems to me they had better options (one of which might be to leave the boy the fuck alone if he isn't causing trouble) than to shoot the boy . They were there to de-escalate the situation (wasn't much to begin with), instead they caused the worst outcome possible.

Supposedly there is a video of the incident. We'll see what really happened.



Really? The parents' fault for buying their kid a toy gun (maybe the boy got it from a friend)? It's on the kid because he stupidly (kid and stupid, anything new?) removed the red tip and waving it around in public?

It's not on the police for not knowing that it was a kid (after being told by the caller that it was a juvenile)? It's not on the police for not knowing that the gun was probably a toy gun, as the caller told them it was?

Yes the boys parents are the real criminals due to lack of parenting and supervision. Buying and allowing your kid to play with an airsoft gun IS no crime, but not instilling the proper values/morales/judgement/respect for these 'toys' IS a crime. You're completely setting up your kid for failure when you allow them to view replica toy guns as real.

Toy or not, replica guns deserve the same respect as real guns, especially when they've had the orange tip removed. How does anyone tell a real gun from a replica airsoft gun w/no orange tip from distance? Until you actually hold it, you'd never know.


So your solution is to leave the kid alone, and continue to let the kid point and wave an unknown 'gun' around at people in the park? Ya perfect solution there bud! Now, lets say that gun was real and he accidentally fires it, and it hits someone? Now who are you going to bitch at? Oh, that's right you'll probably blame it on the cops for not handling the situation.

How you can think this is not "much of a situation" is beyond me. But please, don't stop living in candy land, you'll be the next victim most likely.

Juvenile or not does not give a free pass when there are unknown 'gun(s)' involved. The police didn't know if this person was unstable, if it was 100% a real gun or not, or how old the person was. The person also did not comply with commands from the officer.

Case fucking closed, or if you don't believe me try doing it yourself.

 

[jlprk]

If a civilian kills someone, the cowardly police excuse about "being in fear" counts for nothing. In a police state, police are above the very laws that they enforce upon us.

170 cities have demonstrated against the Ferguson ruling in the last couple of days. Who in the crappy legal system chooses the secret grand juries? The police?

It's like asking, who counts the votes after an election?

 

[blue32]

If a civilian kills someone, the cowardly police excuse about "being in fear" counts for nothing. In a police state, police are above the very laws that they enforce upon us.

I think people are discounting what the typical police officer faces on a day to day basis. I wonder if people understand how often they deal with mentally unstable people that carry weapons on them.

How is it above the law to use force, when a suspect breaking a law doesn't then follow a police officers instructions and reaches for an unknown weapon?

170 cities have demonstrated against the Ferguson ruling in the last couple of days. Who in the crappy legal system chooses the secret grand juries? The police?

And the majority of those people in the 170 cities probably have no idea about what evidence was displayed to the grand jury. Hell, quite a few of these 'protesters' just want to start shit and 'burn the mother fucker down'.

 

[oldmangrouch]

How is it above the law to use force, when a suspect breaking a law doesn't then follow a police officers instructions and reaches for an unknown weapon?
.

And here is where the entire argument collapses. A kid playing with a toy gun is not breaking any law! An armed person breaking the law and an unarmed person who is not breaking the law are not the same thing.

 

[Natebishop3]

Why are you curious about that? That's pretty fucking straight forward. The answer is "no".

The question you should be curious about is this:

What does a police officer do when there is a person that is told to hold up their arms and freeze, but instead reaches into their waistband and grabs the gun.

Actually it is illegal in some places. Beaverton has brandishing laws for Airsoft guns. They can arrest you for carrying an Airsoft gun openly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[blue32]

And here is where the entire argument collapses. A kid playing with a toy gun is not breaking any law! An armed person breaking the law and an unarmed person who is not breaking the law are not the same thing.

Brandishing a firearm, whether it's fake or not, towards people most likely is breaking this law:

Disorderly Conduct in the Second Degree
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/166.025

and since the officer did not know 100% the gun was fake.... possibly this,

Pointing Firearm at another:
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/166.190


I realize this is Oregon and not Ohio; so if you really care i'll find their law.

Edit: here's ohios

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2917.11

 

[blue32]

Actually it is illegal in some places. Beaverton has brandishing laws for Airsoft guns. They can arrest you for carrying an Airsoft gun openly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Boom!
http://www.beavertonoregon.gov/DocumentCenter/Home/View/983

 

[KeepOnRollin]

Cleveland police officer shot Tamir Rice immediately after leaving moving patrol car

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/cleveland_police_officer_shot_1.html

A Cleveland police officer fatally shot Tamir Rice immediately after leaving his moving patrol car while his partner stayed at the wheel, surveillance video shows.

The video showed Wednesday by police captures the Saturday afternoon shooting at a West Side recreation center in which 12-year-old Rice was shot.

The video contains no audio.

A rookie officer pulled the trigger, said Jeffrey Follmer, president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association.

Police were sent to the Cudell Recreation Center at Detroit Avenue and West Boulevard about 3:30 p.m. when someone called 9-1-1 to report a "guy with a gun pointing it at people."

The caller told dispatchers twice that the gun was "probably fake," but that detail was not relayed to the responding officers, Follmer said.

 

[blue32]

Cleveland police officer shot Tamir Rice immediately after leaving moving patrol car

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/cleveland_police_officer_shot_1.html

I see the kid put his hands into his waist band then gets shot. Too bad we don't have audio. This video sort of (need audio) invalidates the claim that there was a "raise hands" command from the officer since it happened so fast.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Cleveland police officer shot Tamir Rice immediately after leaving moving patrol car

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/cleveland_police_officer_shot_1.html

Don't let your kids growup to be thugs who think they can steal, assault & attack cops (and take the orange safety tip off a toy gun) as a way of life & badge of black (dis)honor.

- Ted Nugent

 

[GriLtCheeZ]

Scared cop is what I'm thinking as well. All these cops who were so scared for their lives they had to shoot and killed grandmas slapping at them, kids with toy guns who weren't even threatening, people wielding knives standing 30 feet away, and shooting at dogs that barked menacingly, perhaps you shouldn't be wearing a badge if you're so chicken shit that your first response to every minor threat is to kill people.

Cops aren't heroes.

 

[oldmangrouch]

As kids, we had cap gun/squirt gun fights all over the neighborhood. No one ever called the cops on us...and even if we had annoyed somebody, the cops would have yelled at us, not cut loose with live ammunition!

 

[MARIS61]

If anyone had showed me this video before I read this story, I would have thought that maybe it was a mob hit (provided a different car was used).

Exactly what I thought.

Basically snuck up on him and shot him before he even figured out what the hell was going on. They went in with the intention of shooting him.

Did not look like any police response I've ever seen, and I've seen quite a few.

 

[MARIS61]

Brandishing a firearm, whether it's fake or not, towards people most likely is breaking this law:

Disorderly Conduct in the Second Degree
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/166.025

and since the officer did not know 100% the gun was fake.... possibly this,

Pointing Firearm at another:
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/166.190


I realize this is Oregon and not Ohio; so if you really care i'll find their law.

Edit: here's ohios

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2917.11

The Oregon law does not apply, even if the gun is real, loaded, and the gun-pointer has a known motive to want to do the other person harm.

This according to a State cop when 2 poachers we reported (convicted the day before) pointed rifles at my wife while drinking beer in their van and laughing for 2 hours while I was out hunting. I was told unless they actually shot at her no crime had been committed.

This is why I will never call a cop when faced with violence.