17 Years Ago Today

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This a very good discussion, I hope you don't mind my two cents.

Its nice that both of you can point to one side of the pond or the other, and show influence of this band or that. The best thing about Nirvana was that they were almost a saving grace for old rock and rollers like myself. There were more informed guys at the time, younger than I more attuned to the current scene, but for the main stream to embrace a style familiar to guys my age and drag us back to the fold, well priceless.

I was to turned off by what was going on before these guys, i flat out would ignore top 40/pop rock...detested rap etc an tended to listen to "my stuff" or nothing. Now I can say that I have continued to keep up with music to this day and find something I enjoy, because of this.
 
I love discussing music, especially when it's not a "That band sucks, the band(s) I like are much better" type of discussion.

On a side note, it's funny that this thread is about music, because when I first saw the title, I began hearing "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" in my head. Not the correct number of years to match the lyric, but it still reminded me.
 
This a very good discussion, I hope you don't mind my two cents.

Its nice that both of you can point to one side of the pond or the other, and show influence of this band or that. The best thing about Nirvana was that they were almost a saving grace for old rock and rollers like myself. There were more informed guys at the time, younger than I more attuned to the current scene, but for the main stream to embrace a style familiar to guys my age and drag us back to the fold, well priceless.

I was to turned off by what was going on before these guys, i flat out would ignore top 40/pop rock...detested rap etc an tended to listen to "my stuff" or nothing. Now I can say that I have continued to keep up with music to this day and find something I enjoy, because of this.

I am interested in your take on the hair bands of the 1980s that defined 'rock' music during that period. As a person in junior high, and later starting college during the Nirvana/AIC/Pearl Jam/etc. years, I loathed bands like Warrant, Winger, Poison, Mr. Big, and any other "butt rock" (as my friends and I called it) band. A few exceptions for me are Motley Crue and Ratt. I also credit Guns and Roses, Iron Maiden, and Metallica for keeping rock alive during that period, and I suppose Ozzy too, until he sold out with Lita Ford in a duet.

In other words, how did you make it through those days? I have a very diverse taste in music, and listen to music instead of watching TV, but by the time songs like "Wild Wild West" (the Escape Club version, not the Kool Moe Dee version) were considered rock, I had long checked out of that scene, and entered rap, along with old favorites like New Order and Depeche Mode (both back to the mid-80s for me). Then, while living in San Francisco for a bit during the mid-90s, I discovered dance-electronica music, and while I wasn't in the lifestyle for long (I had to work), I still listen to it while I'm working.

The only music I can't listen to is country, unless it's Willie Nelson, Hank Jr., or Waylon Jennings and similar older acts.
 
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I love discussing music, especially when it's not a "That band sucks, the band(s) I like are much better" type of discussion.

On a side note, it's funny that this thread is about music, because when I first saw the title, I began hearing "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" in my head. Not the correct number of years to match the lyric, but it still reminded me.

Imagine me having an Obama statement to the Ivory Coast in the original post in place of the Nirvana video. Very prog of me. :)
 
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Grunge, an insignificant blip on the radar of musical evolution, was "invented" by following these simple rules.

Use only 2 chords, the same 2 chords in every song, rather than risk creating something unique which may be too complex for fans.

Lyrics must be depressing, forlorn, or suicidal.

Attaining musical competence on an instrument must be avoided at all costs.

Sound man must be a friend, relative, or drug supplier of the band, preferably tone deaf.

As for the talented Kurt Cobain, nearly all heroin junkies kill themselves one way or another.
 
Interesting question. I was born in 60, my dad turned me on to music like Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, Fats Domino etc. I was influenced by an older cousin who was 6 years older than I and turned me on to first folk (Dylan) pop like Beatles and then the darker side like Rolling Stones, playing guitar and smoking things other than tobacco. ( all of these led to the attraction of the opposite sex)

By the 80s I was doing the bar scene pretty heavy and put up with the big hair bands, but found that my personal haven was to discover or in some ways to rediscover some of the older stuff I had missed the first time around and holding on to 70s bands, Lynard Skynard, Doors Frank Zappa and the Mothers, Jimi, Janet, Traffic, Little Feet etc.

For the most part the hair band stuff was what my younger brothers listened to and I shunned it out side of a bar. Late 80s rap almost killed me, hell even the stones were doing Miss You...Bowie was too cute..Phil Collins was selling out..very dark times. Oh, and yeah, lots of beer, Traveling Willberrys(?)sp and Hank JR did help.
 
Grunge, an insignificant blip on the radar of musical evolution, was "invented" by following these simple rules.

Use only 2 chords, the same 2 chords in every song, rather than risk creating something unique which may be too complex for fans.

Lyrics must be depressing, forlorn, or suicidal.

Attaining musical competence on an instrument must be avoided at all costs.

Sound man must be a friend, relative, or drug supplier of the band, preferably tone deaf.

If web forums existed in the 1970s, this would have pretty much mirrored complaints about punk rock.

Coincidentally or not, I consider Nirvana the best punk band of the 1990s. Certainly they were part of the grunge movement, but I don't think that disqualifies them from being punk also. Genres overlap plenty.
 
The only music I can't listen to is country, unless it's Willie Nelson, Hank Jr., or Waylon Jennings and similar older acts.

That's how I feel, too. I don't consider what is labeled "country" today to really be country in any meaningful way. It's twang-pop rather than the form of folk music that it was, IMO, when Cash or Nelson did it. Today, the only real difference I can discern between country and mainstream pop-rock is a Southern accent and occasionally the subject matter.
 
That's how I feel, too. I don't consider what is labeled "country" today to really be country in any meaningful way. It's twang-pop rather than the form of folk music that it was, IMO, when Cash or Nelson did it. Today, the only real difference I can discern between country and mainstream pop-rock is a Southern accent and occasionally the subject matter.

I can't believe that I forgot to include Johnny Cash. What an oversight. Hell, we even listened to Cash extensively during the "grunge" days. I have to include the Eagles and the Doors as bands that I "discovered" in college.
 
Yeah, you might want to read the entire thread. We're already on influences.

I'll add my belief that Butch Vig took a band with two great musicians (Grohl and Cobain) and made them the biggest band in the world for a short time because of his production. Without Vig, Nirvana would be just another Pixies rip-off, and as someone who owns the entire Nirvana collection, including bootlegs and demos, it's not easy for me to say this. I enjoy the garage days of Nirvana, but after getting together with Vig, Grohl and Cobain reached heights they couldn't have before. Unlike his work with Smashing Pumpkins, where he took an average band with a decent songwriter and made them stars, Vig and Nirvana did change music on a larger scale.

Of course, I'm also a big Linkin Park fan, and think that they took what Nirvana was doing and made it different, but not necessarily better, so my judgement may called into question. :)

This a very good discussion, I hope you don't mind my two cents.

Its nice that both of you can point to one side of the pond or the other, and show influence of this band or that. The best thing about Nirvana was that they were almost a saving grace for old rock and rollers like myself. There were more informed guys at the time, younger than I more attuned to the current scene, but for the main stream to embrace a style familiar to guys my age and drag us back to the fold, well priceless.

I was to turned off by what was going on before these guys, i flat out would ignore top 40/pop rock...detested rap etc an tended to listen to "my stuff" or nothing. Now I can say that I have continued to keep up with music to this day and find something I enjoy, because of this.

I am interested in your take on the hair bands of the 1980s that defined 'rock' music during that period. As a person in junior high, and later starting college during the Nirvana/AIC/Pearl Jam/etc. years, I loathed bands like Warrant, Winger, Poison, Mr. Big, and any other "butt rock" (as my friends and I called it) band. A few exceptions for me are Motley Crue and Ratt. I also credit Guns and Roses, Iron Maiden, and Metallica for keeping rock alive during that period, and I suppose Ozzy too, until he sold out with Lita Ford in a duet.

In other words, how did you make it through those days? I have a very diverse taste in music, and listen to music instead of watching TV, but by the time songs like "Wild Wild West" (the Escape Club version, not the Kool Moe Dee version) were considered rock, I had long checked out of that scene, and entered rap, along with old favorites like New Order and Depeche Mode (both back to the mid-80s for me). Then, while living in San Francisco for a bit during the mid-90s, I discovered dance-electronica music, and while I wasn't in the lifestyle for long (I had to work), I still listen to it while I'm working.

The only music I can't listen to is country, unless it's Willie Nelson, Hank Jr., or Waylon Jennings and similar older acts.

Interesting question. I was born in 60, my dad turned me on to music like Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, Fats Domino etc. I was influenced by an older cousin who was 6 years older than I and turned me on to first folk (Dylan) pop like Beatles and then the darker side like Rolling Stones, playing guitar and smoking things other than tobacco. ( all of these led to the attraction of the opposite sex)

By the 80s I was doing the bar scene pretty heavy and put up with the big hair bands, but found that my personal haven was to discover or in some ways to rediscover some of the older stuff I had missed the first time around and holding on to 70s bands, Lynard Skynard, Doors Frank Zappa and the Mothers, Jimi, Janet, Traffic, Little Feet etc.

For the most part the hair band stuff was what my younger brothers listened to and I shunned it out side of a bar. Late 80s rap almost killed me, hell even the stones were doing Miss You...Bowie was too cute..Phil Collins was selling out..very dark times. Oh, and yeah, lots of beer, Traveling Willberrys(?)sp and Hank JR did help.

Interesting conversation guys,

what about Jane's Addiction? I saw them in concert twice. Early Red Hot Chili Peppers?

Also Papa G what did you think of Public Enemy? I remember the first time I heard Fear of a Black Planet. It was mind blowing.
 
Blind Melon was the 'ish. Shannon Hoon died way too young, he was a prodigy.

Candlebox was another good Seattle grungish band.

[video=youtube;jnKjYGzhmp4]
 
Interesting conversation guys,

what about Jane's Addiction? I saw them in concert twice. Early Red Hot Chili Peppers?

Also Papa G what did you think of Public Enemy? I remember the first time I heard Fear of a Black Planet. It was mind blowing.

On another board, I called Public Enemy the most "intelligent" band I have ever witnessed, regardless of genre. Since the discussion was "rock" music, I had to settle on a tie between Radiohead, Talking Heads, and Tool. There are others in that conversation, but in terms of blowing my mind and tackling social issues at the ripe time for it, PE takes the cake in the overall scheme of things, IMO.

Chuck D was the most socially relevant artist in the past 30 years, I believe. Society wasn't ready for that message, but in my own mind, PE helped lay the groundwork for getting a black man elected President of the USA. My personal opinion of Obama's presidency aside, in the PE days, black candidates like Jesse Jackson were basically a novelty act.
 
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On another board, I called Public Enemy the most "intelligent" band I have ever witnessed, regardless of genre. Since the discussion was "rock" music, I had to settle on a tie between Radiohead, Talking Heads, and Tool. There are others in that conversation, but in terms of blowing my mind and tackling social issues at the ripe time for it, PE takes the cake in the overall scheme of things, IMO.

Chuck D was the most socially relevant artist in the past 30 years, I believe. Society wasn't ready for that message, but in my own mind, PE helped lay the groundwork for getting a black man elected President of the USA. My personal opinion of Obama's presidency aside, in the PE days, black candidates like Jesse Jackson were basically a novelty act.

[video=youtube;gq0_Kj6iWcQ]
 
Candlebox was not "another good seattle band" they were discovered by madonna for christs sake. they had a few good songs but were mediocre at best imo.
 
Candlebox was not "another good seattle band" they were discovered by madonna for christs sake. they had a few good songs but were mediocre at best imo.

Nice to see you join us with your opinion Zeus.
 
So who ever saw Courtney Love when she would play at the Satyricon?

In it's day that club got some great acts. I even remember seeing Jerome Kersey and Cliff Robinson there.
 
Another grunge band that blew me away was Silverchair back in the day. They were Aussies, and they were ~17 when they wrote and performed this song, among other outstanding pieces. Heavily inspired by Nirvana, but different. If they were a UK or American band, they would have been huge, IMO.



[video=youtube;tUCrls6vc_U]
 
So who ever saw Courtney Love when she would play at the Satyricon?

In it's day that club got some great acts. I even remember seeing Jerome Kersey and Cliff Robinson there.

Before my day. Where was Satyricon?
 
yeah..i'm a "regular" i guess from oregonlive. rt81. sly told me that "grunge music" was being discussed..therefore i must contribute. thanks for welcoming me.
 
So who ever saw Courtney Love when she would play at the Satyricon?

In it's day that club got some great acts. I even remember seeing Jerome Kersey and Cliff Robinson there.

I didn't move back to the NW until the late-90s. It's really too bad Portland doesn't have a major university, although I perhaps never would have made it through school, and would have been a broke DJ begging for gigs at the Locust (er, Lotus), or a guitar player in some struggling band, instead of getting an education.
 
Before my day. Where was Satyricon?

The "Sat" just closed a few months back. Legendary Portland club.

Ask folks who frequented the Portland nightclub Satyricon during its glory days about the most memorable nights there. You'll get lots of different responses. The most mentioned probably would be the New Year's Eve show Nirvana played to close out 1990, not too many months before that band brought a scruffy underground aesthetic into the mainstream with the colossal (and unexpected) success of "Nevermind."

Pearl Jam played there shortly before the release of its debut album. The very first show by former Nirvana drummer Dave Grohl's band Foo Fighters was there, too.

But ask George Touhouliotis about memorable moments, and he starts with the start.

"I still think one of the greatest nights was the very first night."

In late 1983, Touhouliotis, then 35, took over what had been Marlena's Tavern, a dark, narrow barroom on a seedy stretch of Northwest Sixth Avenue in Old Town. A few months later, around January, as he recalls, some younger friends of his who'd organized a series of shows they called the Urban Music Exposition needed a place to do their thing.

"It was a Thursday, and there was no sign outside the club," Touhouliotis says. "They just said, 'Let's bring the bands down there.' It was, like, seven bands -- until a year or two ago I could remember them all -- the Jackals, the Boy Wonders, the Motives (who played first), Billy Kennedy. ..."

"It was an absolutely beautiful night. The place was packed and people were happy."

For a couple of decades, Satyricon often was like that.

"Then there was a night when that band the Mentors played," Touhouliotis says, "and three people broke their legs or ankles, it was such a wild, crazy mosh thing."

Satyricon could be like that, too.

The ratio of grievous bodily harm to righteous good times was pretty small, all told. As Satyricon winds down toward its final show later this month -- a Halloween-night bill headlined by Poison Idea -- its place in the collective memory of the Portland music scene is as lofty as the club itself was down to earth. To clubgoers of a certain age and aesthetic bent, the series of reunion shows throughout October are both a sustained rush of nostalgia and a very fond farewell.

It's an overdue farewell, too.

For the past few years, a club has been open in the same place at 125 N.W. Sixth Ave. and has called itself Satyricon. But it hasn't been Satyricon.

The original Satyricon -- oh, why pussyfoot: the real Satyricon -- closed in May 2003. But it happened fast -- George (everyone still just calls him George) said that a deal to sell the place fell through then was revived suddenly -- and no farewell show ever took place. Satyricon was just gone.

"By the end, I had gotten tired," George admits. "A place like that runs on creativity and energy; it's not automatic. And by the late '90s, the turn of the millennium, my energy wasn't there."

Ah, but there was a time when George and lots of other people had energy, and Satyricon was its hotbed.

Perhaps this is the skewed view of a partisan, but it strikes me as difficult to overestimate the importance of Satyricon -- to the local music scene, to the broader development of rock tastes and to the cultural evolution of Portland into a "young creatives" magnet.

It's been said that Satyricon was Portland's version of CBGB, the legendary New York club that served as the incubator of American punk and New Wave in the mid-1970s. But I tend to think of it as more akin to Great Britain in 1941 -- a solitary holdout against forbidding forces.

That's overly dramatic, I'll grant. But there were years when Satyricon was the only home in these parts for the adventurous aesthetic of the post-punk underground -- which, to its adherents, really was like a bulwark against a pre-Internet popular culture that was relentlessly top-down in its operation.

Satyricon had its predecessors (the groundbreaking Urban Noize, the Met) and periodic fellow travelers (13th Precinct, the Blue Gallery, etc.). But no place lasted as long, hosted as great or as varied a roster of musicians and other artists, or created such a distinct and powerful social gravity.

Music was the heart of the matter, and it wasn't just sludgy, punk-ish hard rock (call it "grunge" and you'd have outed yourself as either a tourist or a lazy rock critic). The sounds of the '80s rock underground (sometimes called "Amer-indie" -- short for American independent -- or "college rock") ranged widely, from the primitive to the arty. Satyricon was open to free jazz or funk, too. Even the bigwigs of the mainstream local scene of the time (the Crazy 8s, Nu Shooz, Cool'R ...) played there.

But there also were regular poetry readings, often curated by Walt Curtis, who was a sort of spiritual uncle to the place. And the place held visual arts exhibitions before First Thursday made them commonplace.

When it comes to cultural evolution, cause and effect are tough to pin down. But even if Satyricon isn't responsible for Portland's current status as a hotbed of hip creativity, it was the most fully realized expression of that ideal that we've had.

"It wasn't just a hardcore stinky bathrooms music club," George says, noting that the club's public reputation somehow became simplistic, about wildness instead of about art.

True, wildness seemed part of the Satyricon's DNA. The heroin scourge of the early '90s took more than its fair share of a toll on the club's habitués. And public perception wasn't helped by an infamous kerfuffle with police in 1990, euphemistically called "the Satyricon riot": An officer tried to arrest George for urinating in a vacant lot outside the club and a handful of employees and regulars resisted the heavy-handed treatment.

But especially in the early years, the place was a haven not just for disaffected young adults, but for intellectuals and artistic adventurers. As George puts it, "I wanted to have a place about freedom of expression for the artists."

You can find a lively dose of Satyricon nostalgia on Facebook, where a page called "I hung out at Satyricon back in the day" has about 2,000 fans. The page is a repository of reminiscences, personal anecdotes, photos and so on. There are threads of collective detective work concerning the current whereabouts of old friends, breathless conversations about bands burned into memory, rueful recollections about the infamous trough-style urinal in the men's room. A few days ago, someone even posted a link to a site that sells, of all things, a thong emblazoned with the face of Jackals guitarist Dave Corboy.

George says he's noticed the page, but he doesn't take part. He keeps himself busy these days helping his wife with her two restaurants, Eleni's Philoxenia in the Pearl District and Eleni's Estiatorio in Sellwood. A year or so ago, Dimitrious Touhouliotis, George's brother, sold the building that houses Satyricon, and neither brother has been involved in the feting of its demise.

Apart from a wall pushed back here or there, the club looks much as it always did -- a dark cave covered in graffiti and stickers, the kind of place that's so worn that you could scrub it for days and it'd still look dirty. For those who knew it when (George says -- and I agree -- its greatest period was its first four or five years, before Nirvana's commercial breakthrough so radically altered the landscape), it's like a treasure chest of great memories.

"I see people on the street and they talk to me about the old days, as they call them," George says. "And to my amazement, the place means a lot to them. It was a moment. Life goes on, and a lot of them now have bald heads and pot bellies and regular jobs.

"It was really their club more than mine. For me it was nice to be able to offer that place for them to perform and set the stage and realize their dreams."

http://www.oregonlive.com/music/index.ssf/2010/10/post_19.html
 
yeah..i'm a "regular" i guess from oregonlive. rt81. sly told me that "grunge music" was being discussed..therefore i must contribute. thanks for welcoming me.

Welcome, Zeus. Sly and I are usually a-holes, but then, you already knew that about him!

Welcome to S2. :)
 
yeah..i'm a "regular" i guess from oregonlive. rt81. sly told me that "grunge music" was being discussed..therefore i must contribute. thanks for welcoming me.

Hey RubberToe! It's about time you finally joined the rest of us over here.
 
silverchair? 14 year olds complaining about life...? daniel johns is talented.but his lyrics have generally been juvenile imo.
 
Hey Papa, you listen to any Talib Kweli? A lot of his lyrics reminds me of Chuck D.

Got searched on the plane, Arabic first name
Disturbed by the fame just like Kurt Cobain
Breath of life, kiss of death, my lips pursed the same
You flirt 'til she came
Nothin' hurt like the pain and torture
Daughters of the dust lookin' for a vein
Something to take in vain like the Lord's name
Put your hands together, got 'em all sayin'

[video=youtube;RUMvqAtAFL4]
 
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silverchair? 14 year olds complaining about life...? daniel johns is talented.but his lyrics have generally been juvenile imo.

Hey, I'm not saying they were great. Just very interesting, and it's too bad they didn't develop their depth as their lives aged.
 
Right. Swing, Jazz, Rock, Blues, Soul, etc. all started in London as well. It's interesting to see the perspective from an English person.

History didn't start with Led Zeppelin. LOL

As for glam rock, I don't really consider that ground-breaking; it was basically just an offshoot of an existing genre. I'd credit Portland's own The Kingsmen, for example, of being more influential to rock as a genre than David Bowie.

Most of the aforementioned Brit stars cite early American blues artists as their inspiration, and accomplished artists today seek out new rhythms and tonalities from foreign lands to inject life and freshness to their works. Music predates the written word, and is present in every known culture on Earth. All musicians are influenced by their predecessors, whether they realize it or not.

As for The Kingsmen and David Bowie, I've seen them both live and it's like comparing a Tonka Truck and a Mercedes 450SL. Both are quality examples of what they are.
 

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