2 lesbians adopt a baby boy.....6 years later, he starts sex change therapy....

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NO< THEY MUST HAVE SECKS CHANGES!!!!! END OF STORY!!!! CRACKPOT PSYCHOLOGISTS SAY SO!

:MARIS61:
 
The Sebastian Express said:
Brian, as highly as you think of yourself, you don't get to tell people of any age how they identify.
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Of course not. The laws of our country dictate that an underage minor doesn't either, and that the child's parents don't until they are 16 and the parents can consent to the child's wishes.
You don't get to run other people's lives. You aren't God, you aren't an emperor or dictator, you aren't the moral compass to which we all so highly wish to place ourselves and measure. You are not the law, nor the final word.
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Not at all. The LAW is the law. I just point it out (and the inherent hypocracy) when others attempt to break it.
Infact, the only thing you are right now is disrespectful to trans people - people who are constantly thrown under the bus by both the heterosexual and homosexual community.
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That's such bullshit. "Trans" people are those who have made the legal decision to identify that way, and can legally do whatever the heck they want to. According to the law, a minor cannot do so. So I'll turn it around and say that you, TSE, are not God...you don't get to illegally impose any of your value systems on minors, and you don't get to condone others doing so, for whatever caring or loving reason. If you think that a minor should be able to postpone puberty until 16--attempt to get the law changed.

Stop being scared and learn the process. Don't just read it and quote it back, try to understand it.
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Why would I be scared of a British child? Or his lesbian parents? What "process" is there to circumnavigate the courts?

I'll ask this, then. If the boy wanted to "identify" as a girl by having sex with a man, is he allowed to at age 11?
 
ABM said:
Weren't they called tom-boys (or such) back in the day? Nothing wrong with that. Go with the flow.
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No. As I tried to explain after your flippant comment regarding the Jerry Spring show an the episode featuring "trans people who are now gay" and how they could have just saved two steps and not done anything, gender identity and sexual orientation are completely different things. Like wise just because someone is tomboyish does not mean they they are trapped in the wrong body. I was a tom boy, I never felt like I wasn't supposed to be a female though. I never felt trapped in my own body.

Maybe some of you like to make jokes because you're scared and don't want understand. Alright. But all you do is hurt trans people, and I hate to break it to you, but their process has nothing to do with you. It isn't about you. It is about them. Try to genuinely understand.
 
I know! Let's let progressive Fabian agenda blind us to the fact that there's a multitude of laws against this action, because it's not smoking or drinking or driving or voting...sexuality is involved!!
 
BrianFromWA said:
Of course not. The laws of our country dictate that an underage minor doesn't either, and that the child's parents don't until they are 16 and the parents can consent to the child's wishes.
Not at all. The LAW is the law. I just point it out (and the inherent hypocracy) when others attempt to break it.
That's such bullshit. "Trans" people are those who have made the legal decision to identify that way, and can legally do whatever the heck they want to. According to the law, a minor cannot do so. So I'll turn it around and say that you, TSE, are not God...you don't get to illegally impose any of your value systems on minors, and you don't get to condone others doing so, for whatever caring or loving reason. If you think that a minor should be able to postpone puberty until 16--attempt to get the law changed.


Why would I be scared of a British child? Or his lesbian parents? What "process" is there to circumnavigate the courts?

I'll ask this, then. If the boy wanted to "identify" as a girl by having sex with a man, is he allowed to at age 11?
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Ah, flippant comment trying to subtly connect homosexuality and trans people to pedophilia and pedophiles. Insulting to so many people of so many identities.

We're done here, darling, I still wonder how you remain a mod.
 
The Sebastian Express said:
Maybe some of you like to make jokes because you're scared and don't want understand. Alright. But all you do is hurt trans people, and I hate to break it to you, but their process has nothing to do with you. It isn't about you. It is about them. Try to genuinely understand.
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I stayed at The Surftides a couple of Saturdays ago. There was some type of (GLBT?) general event going on in Lincoln City and a number of trans were holding what appeared to be a mini-event at the hotel. I'm here to tell ya, they sure didn't appear as if they felt misunderstood. It was quite entertaining, actually. :)
 
Why is it flippant? I'm genuinely trying to understand what the heck you're thinking. And I wouldn't have expected the "you're right, so I'll insult and leave" retreat from you.
 
The Sebastian Express said:
Ah, flippant comment trying to subtly connect homosexuality and trans people to pedophilia and pedophiles. Insulting to so many people of so many identities.

We're done here, darling, I still wonder how you remain a mod.
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You have consistently ignored this, so I don't even know why I bother, but I guess I'm stubborn sometimes.
Why won't you answer the questions? If a child wants to do something like vote, have consensual sex, smoke, watch pornography or join the military, the state says that they do not have the capacity to make that choice. But YOU are saying that when it comes to delaying puberty and changing gender--then they have the capacity? So what's the difference between consensual sex and changing gender to better identify? Why do you call "consensual sex with a minor" pedophilia and consider it an insult? My guess is because there's a long precedent of it being illegal. Whereas hormone therapy on a child whom the state deems not to have the capacity to make decisions for himself somehow meets with your approval. Why?

Once again, I seem one of the few people who care about protecting children from exploitation. No one is telling him that he can't dress up as a girl or ask people to call him Tammy (though without a legal name change, that's tougher). What is wrong and illegal here is a child under the age of consent able to make decisions that the state says cannot be made due to a lack of capacity, and parents that are allowing drugs to be taken to further the decision.

I have no idea how I remain a mod. My guess is because I apply logic, don't insult, and attempt to state my views clearly when I disagree with others.
 
julius said:
btw, why are you bringing up UK rules (below)? It's not a UK issue.

Also, I was driving at 16.
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I somehow missed that this was in Berkeley at first, but saw that it was from dailymail.uk. I was trying to compare apples to apples. But if it's the US, then yes, it's 16 to drive. The others, on quick perusal, are exactly the same in the US except for porn at 17.[/quote]
 
ABM said:
OK, guess I was wrong.

It was this:

http://www.surftideslincolncity.com/iris-gay-pride-festivale.html
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Curse you reply to thread red button that I keep hitting on accident.

I'm sure you understand one weekend and one group amongst other GLBT does not mean they do not experience harassment and misunderstanding in general and daily life (from both heterosexuals and other members of the queer community). I could attend a GLBT event and be happy (I mean, -I- wouldn't because I hate gatherings, but we'll suspend reality for a moment), but it doesn't mean I still wont hear over a hundred gay slurs a day just casually tossed about; that certainly gets me down from time to time.

Harassment and misunderstanding of Trans people is very much a real thing - subtle or overt or general throwing under the bus - by people of all groups.
 
And anyone who harasses a transgender person should be prosecuted to the extent of the law.

The "misunderstanding" part is harder to get around, when you're advocating that I should try to "understand" illegal activities.
 
The Sebastian Express said:
Harassment and misunderstanding of Trans people is very much a real thing - subtle or overt or general throwing under the bus - by people of all groups.
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Meanness is a terrible thing. See: Race; Disabilities; Intelligence; Attractiveness; Weight; Sexual Orientation; Rednecks (OK, I can see that ;) ); Lack Of Wealth; Political Persuasion; Religion;......the list goes on an on............

There are a lot of angry people out there. It sucks.
 
:sigh:

If you'd like to answer the question, go ahead.

EDIT: As an aside, I'm saddened that for all of the exhortations for people to "understand," that no one's taking the time to answer the questions. Is it because you don't have answers, that you don't care to enlighten a neanderthal dick like me, or that you want to keep up what you think is righteous indignation and name-calling?
 
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The Sebastian Express said:
Ah, flippant comment trying to subtly connect homosexuality and trans people to pedophilia and pedophiles. Insulting to so many people of so many identities.

We're done here, darling, I still wonder how you remain a mod.
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I've never understand why people bring up the fact that someone is a mod in a debate like this. Mods are not without opinion or belief (Denny Crane should be proof of that). The only behavior that I would think warrants questioning of someone's ability to mod would be personally attacking other posters or abusing the power that goes with the position. I think Brian is well within his rights to post his opinions on this topic, and just because you disagree with him doesn't make him wrong or you right.

Brian is questioning the legality of this story. I don't blame him for that. I too am wondering if it is legal for a child of that age to have major life-changing procedures that are not required for their health (IE keep them from dying). Similarly I would be against a child having cosmetic surgery at that age, whether it's a nose job, boob job, etc. Kids that age are far too young to make major decisions of that magnitude.

Life sucks, we all go through pain and question who we are and what we are doing here. That's not reserved for gay children. I understand that it is hard for kids that are gay because they don't feel like they are accepted or that they belong, but that too is not reserved entirely for gay kids. I've seen straight kids take unbelievable amounts of physical and verbal abuse for simply being different. I've seen kids tormented relentlessly because the other children got enjoyment out of it. We must all find strength, even at that age, to make it through those tough times and grow stronger from it. It's what makes us who we are when we get older.
 
Natebishop3 said:
...Life sucks, we all go through pain and question who we are and what we are doing here. That's not reserved for gay children. I understand that it is hard for kids that are gay because they don't feel like they are accepted or that they belong, but that too is not reserved entirely for gay kids. I've seen straight kids take unbelievable amounts of physical and verbal abuse for simply being different. I've seen kids tormented relentlessly because the other children got enjoyment out of it. We must all find strength, even at that age, to make it through those tough times and grow stronger from it. It's what makes us who we are when we get older.
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Amen. I mean, could you just imagine barfo as a child? :shh:
 
I question why he is a mod when this is not the first time he has tried to made subtle connections of homosexuality/queer people to pedophiles/pedophilia, in addition to some other unrelated incidents. I have no problem admitting that makes me very angry.

I do not mind disagreements. I do not mind him questioning the legality of the treatment. (You will see my main problem with his original post was his comments calling the child a boy and asking why other people would ever refer to the child as a girl).

I don't have a problem with hormone blockers to stall puberty. I, personally, do not think hormone treatment (different than blocking) should begin until at the very earliest of 16. I do not think gender reassignment surgery should happen until 18. The only points I was making earlier was this is not just some random and rapid decision making - people who undergo this treatment and process have years, near a decade if not more, in therapy consulting with a number of professionals in multiple medical fields. This isn't an eight (eleven) year old getting his (her) penis amputated (as was suggested) because he (she) decided "eh, feel like a girl, don't want the dangly bits anymore, where the scissors at" and parents and professionals going "eh, better give him (her) a sterilized set of scissors".

I too am against children having cosmetic surgery unless absolutely necessary (septum problems, obviously anything under traumatic accidents which cause physical dis-figuration or severe burns).

I have never said people/children do not get bullied on a while. However minorities of any category are a very easy target for bullying so the person being the bully can 'try to fit in' and prove how normal they are, and how different their victim is. Also, it is far more than needing to find strength to make it through tough times. We as adults now and those who are older than us must teach children/people that this is unacceptable. It very much affects a person's quality of life and it is harrowing and a great loss when a person commits suicide because people around them bully and harass them in an attempt to make themselves feel better.

It wears a person down who has to hear slurs hundreds of times a day (and I assure you this does happen, because they are so casually thrown about). The mind is a funny thing how it can turn against you when you hear so many other people say something negative about an aspect of you (gay, person of color, etc).
 
The Sebastian Express said:
I question why he is a mod when this is not the first time he has tried to made subtle connections of homosexuality/queer people to pedophiles/pedophilia, in addition to some other unrelated incidents.
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Brian and I were both elected to be mods by the members of this forum.
 
The Sebastian Express said:
I question why he is a mod when this is not the first time he has tried to made subtle connections of homosexuality/queer people to pedophiles/pedophilia, in addition to some other unrelated incidents. I have no problem admitting that makes me very angry.
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It is not, and never has been, my intention to make anyone angry, especially in hot-button topics like religion and sexuality. I believe you are attributing the thoughts of others to me, and I ask that you revisit the question from the earlier post, think about it for a second, and then educate me on why an 11 year old cannot have consensual sex without you blasting someone for bringing up pedophilia, yet the same premise of law is used by our goverment to dictate that children cannot choose medical treatment for non-medical issues (such as nose jobs or breast enhancement), among other "trivial" things like voting, working, smoking, etc.

I do not mind disagreements. I do not mind him questioning the legality of the treatment. (You will see my main problem with his original post was his comments calling the child a boy and asking why other people would ever refer to the child as a girl).
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I have no problem with any of this, and my question was answered by you. Biologically, the child is a boy, right? Your answer/opinion was that he dresses like a girl and wants to be called Tammy, so he/she should be. Fair enough.

I don't have a problem with hormone blockers to stall puberty.
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I still don't understand why, but we don't have to get bogged down here.
I, personally, do not think hormone treatment (different than blocking) should begin until at the very earliest of 16. I do not think gender reassignment surgery should happen until 18. The only points I was making earlier was this is not just some random and rapid decision making - people who undergo this treatment and process have years, near a decade if not more, in therapy consulting with a number of professionals in multiple medical fields. This isn't an eight (eleven) year old getting his (her) penis amputated (as was suggested) because he (she) decided "eh, feel like a girl, don't want the dangly bits anymore, where the scissors at" and parents and professionals going "eh, better give him (her) a sterilized set of scissors".
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Transferrence...I never said that it was. I don't even dispute that adults who undertake this process have had ample counseling and completely understand their decision. But those adults (unless I'm mistaken, which is quite possible) have been above the age of minority, or been 16 with parental consent. Even in your answer, you state that you disagree with starting hormone therapy, but you would postpone puberty. I have the hardest time understanding this. You speak (rightly) of concerns of bullying and troubles trying to fit in, but you're advocating that a child go most of the way through high school without reaching puberty?
 
Ridiculous. Those parents should be sent to jail.
 
Now that children have the legal right to change gender, do they and adults have the legal right to have sex together? Children are now adults, right? If mere children are granted the Solomonic power to change gender, why should any lesser decision be legally denied them (e.g. drinking, sex, smoking, drugs, kicking the teacher in the shin)? What if an 8 or 11 year old wants to take hormones to stay 3 feet tall all his life, because his favorite character is Mickey Mouse? Should he have the legal right to start the hormones?

I'll ask the same in the converse. What rights do children not have, if they already have the legal right to make the biggest decision in their lives (which would intimidate anyone at any age)? Can you list the rights children do not have?

If children acquire this right, it will contradict all existing limitations upon their legal powers. Legislators will have to revisit legal distinctions between adult and child in every law.
 
The Sebastian Express said:
I question why he is a mod when this is not the first time he has tried to made subtle connections of homosexuality/queer people to pedophiles/pedophilia, in addition to some other unrelated incidents. I have no problem admitting that makes me very angry.

I do not mind disagreements. I do not mind him questioning the legality of the treatment. (You will see my main problem with his original post was his comments calling the child a boy and asking why other people would ever refer to the child as a girl).

I don't have a problem with hormone blockers to stall puberty. I, personally, do not think hormone treatment (different than blocking) should begin until at the very earliest of 16. I do not think gender reassignment surgery should happen until 18. The only points I was making earlier was this is not just some random and rapid decision making - people who undergo this treatment and process have years, near a decade if not more, in therapy consulting with a number of professionals in multiple medical fields. This isn't an eight (eleven) year old getting his (her) penis amputated (as was suggested) because he (she) decided "eh, feel like a girl, don't want the dangly bits anymore, where the scissors at" and parents and professionals going "eh, better give him (her) a sterilized set of scissors".

I too am against children having cosmetic surgery unless absolutely necessary (septum problems, obviously anything under traumatic accidents which cause physical dis-figuration or severe burns).

I have never said people/children do not get bullied on a while. However minorities of any category are a very easy target for bullying so the person being the bully can 'try to fit in' and prove how normal they are, and how different their victim is. Also, it is far more than needing to find strength to make it through tough times. We as adults now and those who are older than us must teach children/people that this is unacceptable. It very much affects a person's quality of life and it is harrowing and a great loss when a person commits suicide because people around them bully and harass them in an attempt to make themselves feel better.

It wears a person down who has to hear slurs hundreds of times a day (and I assure you this does happen, because they are so casually thrown about). The mind is a funny thing how it can turn against you when you hear so many other people say something negative about an aspect of you (gay, person of color, etc).
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Sorry the part about the abuse wasn't aimed at you. Just thinking out loud.

I understand what you're saying, but I still think that Brian is entitled to his opinion and unless he is personally attacking you or abusing his power, the guy is a very good mod. I can understand being frustrated though. There's plenty of posters that annoy me too :grin:
 
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