2 lesbians adopt a baby boy.....6 years later, he starts sex change therapy....

[Denny Crane]

I've never understand why people bring up the fact that someone is a mod in a debate like this. Mods are not without opinion or belief (Denny Crane should be proof of that). The only behavior that I would think warrants questioning of someone's ability to mod would be personally attacking other posters or abusing the power that goes with the position. I think Brian is well within his rights to post his opinions on this topic, and just because you disagree with him doesn't make him wrong or you right.

Brian is questioning the legality of this story. I don't blame him for that. I too am wondering if it is legal for a child of that age to have major life-changing procedures that are not required for their health (IE keep them from dying). Similarly I would be against a child having cosmetic surgery at that age, whether it's a nose job, boob job, etc. Kids that age are far too young to make major decisions of that magnitude.

Life sucks, we all go through pain and question who we are and what we are doing here. That's not reserved for gay children. I understand that it is hard for kids that are gay because they don't feel like they are accepted or that they belong, but that too is not reserved entirely for gay kids. I've seen straight kids take unbelievable amounts of physical and verbal abuse for simply being different. I've seen kids tormented relentlessly because the other children got enjoyment out of it. We must all find strength, even at that age, to make it through those tough times and grow stronger from it. It's what makes us who we are when we get older.

I do have an opinion.

I don't see this as a life threatening situation. I don't see where you or I or most anyone else should have a say in this. If the kid is unhappy with his (or her) gender, why should someone not close to the situation have a say, and that say make this child's life miserable.

This is clearly a decision that should be made between the parents (no matter if they're gay or not), the child, and the doctors.

 

[Denny Crane]

The child identifies as a girl, and wishes to be called a girl. The child has gone through years of therapy and again, identifies, as a girl. She goes to school as a girl. She dresses as a girl. She is referred to as a girl.

Brian, as highly as you think of yourself, you don't get to tell people of any age how they identify. You don't get to run other people's lives. You aren't God, you aren't an emperor or dictator, you aren't the moral compass to which we all so highly wish to place ourselves and measure. You are not the law, nor the final word. Infact, the only thing you are right now is disrespectful to trans people - people who are constantly thrown under the bus by both the heterosexual and homosexual community.

Stop being scared and learn the process. Don't just read it and quote it back, try to understand it.

This.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Denny,

Agree that the sexuality of the parents has no relevance in this case.

But how can you say that

This is clearly a decision that should be made between the parents, the child, and the doctors.

when the parents and child and doctors do not have the legal right to decide that he/she's ready to make a decision to work outside the home, drive a car, get married, have consensual sex with whomever he/she wants, smoke a cigarette, etc.?

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Ridiculous. Those parents should be sent to jail.

Agreed. Through their depravity they have ruined the life of a child. It's one of the saddest things I have ever heard of. To be a child and have your life permanently destroyed like this.

 

[Bob Dobalina]

Read the story, watched the video. Did I understand correctly that these people believe gender is a choice?

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Never forget that all 23 of us know where you live.

Muhahahahahahahahaha!

OK, now I have to show my hypocritical side. Send over a few good looking lezbies and we'll have a reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal fine time. The other 19 or so of you can go jump in a lake.

 

[Denny Crane]

Denny,

Agree that the sexuality of the parents has no relevance in this case.

But how can you say that when the parents and child and doctors do not have the legal right to decide that he/she's ready to make a decision to work outside the home, drive a car, get married, have consensual sex with whomever he/she wants, smoke a cigarette, etc.?

Sorry Brian, but I think you're making a huge stretch here, linking decisions that rightfully belong to parent and the child and their doctors to unrelated laws.

Family law allows the parents to make health care decisions for the child. The exception is when that choice threatens the child's life. Not the case here.

Sebastian Express is 100% right on this one. This is not some simple thing without proper oversight and consultation. For an adult, the process takes years of counseling before the doctors are satisfied to do the procedure. Same for this child.

I'm satisfied to let the parents be parents, the doctors do their jobs, and the child have the ultimate say (since it's not a life saving operation).

A more interesting case would be if one of the parents did not want to allow the procedure. I think that parent would lose in court, but you never know.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Family law allows the parents to make health care decisions for the child. The exception is when that choice threatens the child's life.

What is the illness or injury that the child has that requires medical care here? If you say that "Gender Identity Disorder" is a mental illness (it IS in ICD-10 CM), then how can you state that the child is legally capable to make life-altering decisions (medical or otherwise), since the child is not free from mental illness?

And you're satisfied to "let the child have the ultimate say" in a life-altering hormone therapy (note: I'm not talking about what the child can legally do at age 16 or 18) when the child can't even legally say that the child wants to drink wine at dinner or have sex with his boy/girlfriend?

I admit ignorance of family medical law. So your response brings multiple questions to mind. If the child wanted breast augmentation, and the parents were on board, it can't happen until 18, correct? If the child and parents and doctors wanted LASIK surgery before 18, it is still illegal. Even organ donation (which would save someone else's life!) is strictly regulated to children who can give "informed assent" to parental permission and are deemed by advocates as free from parental pressure.

If Denny, TSE, all the others who think I'm a dick think that a 10 y/o can give informed assent to medically postponing puberty until 16 and then having a sex-change procedure, yet not be legally able to get a breast enhancement or LASIK ...then we'll just agree to disagree.

 

[Denny Crane]

Like I wrote, it's a decision between the child, parents, and the doctors.

The child doesn't have some debilitating mental disorder that would make its judgment questionable. Even so, he or she is undergoing a pretty intense therapy with psychiatrists over a long time, to assure it's not some kind of whim.

I'm satisfied that the child is terribly unhappy in her situation. Why deny her the happiness she deserves and wants? It's not your (or my) responsibility so maybe we should butt out...

 

[MARIS61]

The problem I'd have with it is, how many decisions did you make when you were 8 that, looking back now, were thoughtful, well-considered decisions?

barfo

All of them.

 

[Denny Crane]

Also, LASIK is not approved for minors vs being illegal. They don't have enough data to know if it's safe.

As to other cosmetic surgery, that again would be between the doctors, parents, and patient. Every situation is different. Cosmetic surgery is done all the time, even on infants and newborns.

 

[BrianFromWA]

And like I wrote, why can this child's deserving happiness be met through puberty-delaying hormone therapy, but not the happiness of a child who wants LASIK surgery, or a child who wants breast enlargement?

All of the non-answers point to a hypocracy based upon this being an "alternative lifestyle." You don't seem to care about denying a child's happiness when it's a 15y/o having consensual sex with a teacher/pastor/boy scout leader, or a 16 y/o marrying his first cousin, but when it's got the tagwords of GLBT/Lesbian/outrage then it's just a matter of a child's happiness.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Family law allows the parents to make health care decisions for the child. The exception is when that choice threatens the child's life. Not the case here.

I'll disagree. Forcing a child to further mental cruelties beyond measure- and probably for the rest of his life. As a result of what they are doing to him, I'd not be surprised if he ends up committing suicide. And for what? The unfathomable depravity of two homosexuals. I think a good argument can be made it threatens his life.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Also, LASIK is not approved for minors vs being illegal. They don't have enough data to know if it's safe.

Yet there's enough data to state that an 8 year-old's gender identity disorder is best/most safely addressed through pre-pubescent hormone therapy?

As to other cosmetic surgery, that again would be between the doctors, parents, and patient.

Not true. A 16 year old girl cannot get breast enhancement, no matter how happy she thinks it will make her. Tommy/Tammy cannot get breast enhancement until then, with parental consent. Even in cases of breast reduction, where there's a medical issue involved in addition to any perceived or real social stigma, it can't be done until 16. Yet you want me to believe that an 11 y/o (8 when the therapy started!) can give informed consent to postpone puberty through hormone therapy and that the laws of our land state as much. I don't buy it.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Look, I wish the best for the child and his/her future life. If at 16 he wants to get a sex change (with parental permission), that's within the laws of our country. If he wants to dress up as a girl for the next 7 years and then decide not to go through with it, that's his choice. Right now, though (and including at age 8), it's not the child's choice--and our government says it's not.

 

[MARIS61]

I think the issue lies more in this child's upbringing than anything else.

Had he been adopted by a heterosexual couple we'd have no thread here.

The odds are astronomical that it's simply a coincidence that a boy adopted by a lesbian couple decides he was accidentally born male.

As with many adoptive parents, the overwhelming urge to "create" the child in their image must be acknowledged and taken into consideration. It seems odd to me that 2 lesbians would choose a boy for adoption in the first place, and it's clear they have raised him as a girl since adoption.

 

[Denny Crane]

And like I wrote, why can this child's deserving happiness be met through puberty-delaying hormone therapy, but not the happiness of a child who wants LASIK surgery, or a child who wants breast enlargement?

All of the non-answers point to a hypocracy based upon this being an "alternative lifestyle." You don't seem to care about denying a child's happiness when it's a 15y/o having consensual sex with a teacher/pastor/boy scout leader, or a 16 y/o marrying his first cousin, but when it's got the tagwords of GLBT/Lesbian/outrage then it's just a matter of a child's happiness.

LASIK isnt performed on minors because the doctors won't do it. They don't have the proper studies done to show it's a safe procedure.

Breast implants aren't done on minors because doctors won't perform them, generally. But there have been hundreds or thousands done. Like I wrote, every situation is different. In the case of breast cancer or severe burns, for example, a doctor might do it. For good reason. They won't generally do them because they want the girl to finish puberty first.

The rest of your post isn't relevant. Sex with a minor is illegal and a crime. There are lots of stories about public school and religious school teachers, of both sexes, getting busted for it.

 

[Denny Crane]

I think the issue lies more in this child's upbringing than anything else.

Had he been adopted by a heterosexual couple we'd have no thread here.

The odds are astronomical that it's simply a coincidence that a boy adopted by a lesbian couple decides he was accidentally born male.

As with many adoptive parents, the overwhelming urge to "create" the child in their image must be acknowledged and taken into consideration. It seems odd to me that 2 lesbians would choose a boy for adoption in the first place, and it's clear they have raised him as a girl since adoption.

This is the silliest post I've seen since barfo's last post.

 

[MARIS61]

This is the silliest post I've seen since barfo's last post.

Maybe it's not complicated or mysterious enough.

I say that because you apparently have no credible rebuttal to offer.

 

[MARIS61]

In the case of breast cancer or severe burns, for example, a doctor might do it.

To correct disfigurement.

Not to create disfigurement as this case is doing.

 

[BrianFromWA]

The rest of your post isn't relevant. Sex with a minor is illegal and a crime. There are lots of stories about public school and religious school teachers, of both sexes, getting busted for it.

Of course it's relevant. It's the crux of the argument here. Sex with a minor is illegal and a crime because the child is legislated by our country to be not of the age or mental capacity to consent legally to that decision. Yet you're attempting to make the case that in this scenario, the child is capable of making this informed assent to a procedure that is not medically required. My contention is that the child is not capable of informed consent, and that the laws are being broken in giving the child hormone therapy he/she desires to make the child happy.

You can't have it both ways, and the dichotomy/hypocracy of that is what I keep asking about.

As for the LASIK and breast enhancement, doctors won't do them presumably because it's regulated against by (in various forms) the federal government. I don't know for a fact that it's regulated against only because "proper studies haven't been done," but I'll buy off on that presumption. Yet if two parents gave their permission for their daughter to get the breast enhancement that would really make her happy, and her therapist was on board and they found a doctor to do the procedure, it would still be against federal regulations until she is 18 (or 22 if she wanted silicone).

 

[MARIS61]

I see little difference here between this child and preteens engulfed in the child beauty pageant circuit.

Little more than helpless toys for their parent's manipulation. It's all a form of pedophillia IMO.

 

[Denny Crane]

Maybe it's not complicated or mysterious enough.

I say that because you apparently have no credible rebuttal to offer.

What's to rebut? It's insane that anyone can be led to believe they're gay or wrong gender by upbringing.

 

[Denny Crane]

Of course it's relevant. It's the crux of the argument here. Sex with a minor is illegal and a crime because the child is legislated by our country to be not of the age or mental capacity to consent legally to that decision. Yet you're attempting to make the case that in this scenario, the child is capable of making this informed assent to a procedure that is not medically required. My contention is that the child is not capable of informed consent, and that the laws are being broken in giving the child hormone therapy he/she desires to make the child happy.

You can't have it both ways, and the dichotomy/hypocracy of that is what I keep asking about.

As for the LASIK and breast enhancement, doctors won't do them presumably because it's regulated against by (in various forms) the federal government. I don't know for a fact that it's regulated against only because "proper studies haven't been done," but I'll buy off on that presumption. Yet if two parents gave their permission for their daughter to get the breast enhancement that would really make her happy, and her therapist was on board and they found a doctor to do the procedure, it would still be against federal regulations until she is 18 (or 22 if she wanted silicone).

There's no law against LASIK, breast enhancement/reduction, or this pre-gender change therapy. None.

Not for minors or anyone.

Any dichotomy is you making it out like there's a crime or some other bad activity going on.

You can't read the child's mind. The shrinks are spending years if therapy with her to validate that she is what she says. Trust the experts - govt. is not involved.

 

[Natebishop3]

This is clearly a decision that should be made between the parents (no matter if they're gay or not), the child, and the doctors.

But they aren't the parents. They are the adopted parents. If the birth parents came forward and expressed that they thought this was wrong and attempted to stop the procedure, would you have different feelings? This is a case of two people with no blood relation raising a child who now wants to have a significant life changing procedure done to their body.

I am not against gay couples adopting children. I think the foster care system is already fucked up and if two people will give a child a loving home, that's great. Better than the alternative, but it seems to me that these women are making a severe lapse in judgement. Parents are chosen on their ability to provide a good home and make good decisions in the absence of the birth parents. This is not a good decision.

I just feel that this sends the message that being gay is a curable disease. If you are a homosexual, we can give you some hormones and make a few snips and you're no longer a woman in a mans body. Now you're just a woman. I think they're ignoring the real problem, which is the psychological baggage that seems to go with being "gender confused". You were born the way you are because that's what makes you unique and beautiful. It's why I'm against virtually all cosmetic surgery and why I don't like breast implants, nose jobs, etc. If this boy is confused about who he is, maybe they should be trying to address his confusion so that he can accept that he's gay and move on in life. It's easy to say, "we will give you this procedure and everything will be fine" but it will not be fine. He will still have all the emotional baggage but he will no longer have a penis. I have known many gay men who are happy with life because they are comfortable with who they are.

If I would have been presented with an option at that age that would have made my life all better and taken away all my pain, I probably would have done it too. Unfortunately there is only one procedure that can take your pain away and make it all better.... euthanasia.

 

[Denny Crane]

But they aren't the parents. They are the adopted parents. If the birth parents came forward and expressed that they thought this was wrong and attempted to stop the procedure, would you have different feelings? This is a case of two people with no blood relation raising a child who now wants to have a significant life changing procedure done to their body.

I am not against gay couples adopting children. I think the foster care system is already fucked up and if two people will give a child a loving home, that's great. Better than the alternative, but it seems to me that these women are making a severe lapse in judgement. Parents are chosen on their ability to provide a good home and make good decisions in the absence of the birth parents. This is not a good decision.

I just feel that this sends the message that being gay is a curable disease. If you are a homosexual, we can give you some hormones and make a few snips and you're no longer a woman in a mans body. Now you're just a woman. I think they're ignoring the real problem, which is the psychological baggage that seems to go with being "gender confused". You were born the way you are because that's what makes you unique and beautiful. It's why I'm against virtually all cosmetic surgery and why I don't like breast implants, nose jobs, etc. If this boy is confused about who he is, maybe they should be trying to address his confusion so that he can accept that he's gay and move on in life. It's easy to say, "we will give you this procedure and everything will be fine" but it will not be fine. He will still have all the emotional baggage but he will no longer have a penis. I have known many gay men who are happy with life because they are comfortable with who they are.

If I would have been presented with an option at that age that would have made my life all better and taken away all my pain, I probably would have done it too. Unfortunately there is only one procedure that can take your pain away and make it all better.... euthanasia.

First of all, I don't see why some parental rights apply to adoptive parents and some don't.

There's no emotional baggage like you claim. I know people who have had the operation and they are much happier than before.

I agree with you for the most part about cosmetic surgery, but that's our choice.

As far as how you're born, there are a lot of genetic mistakes made. Twins joined at the hip. A sheep in the news recently born with two heads, etc. This seems like something along those lines to me.

 

[MARIS61]

What's to rebut? It's insane that anyone can be led to believe they're gay or wrong gender by upbringing.

First of all this thread has nothing at all to do with whether this child is gay or hetero.

The child has never claimed to be gay nor is there any indication he is.

He has been raised to believe he's the victim of some boo-boo of nature and was given the wrong type of body.

This thread is about the minority assumption that nature doesn't know WTF it's doing when it creates life.

 

[MARIS61]

You can't read the child's mind. The shrinks are spending years if therapy with her to validate that she is what she says. Trust the experts - govt. is not involved.

Nor can "the shrinks" read his mind.

Having known a couple of child psychologists and seen the mess their own child was I'd never let a child of mine anywhere near them.

As with most professionals, their primary goal is to make $. To say their chosen field somehow makes them trustworthy is absurd.

 

[barfo]

I just feel that this sends the message that being gay is a curable disease. If you are a homosexual, we can give you some hormones and make a few snips and you're no longer a woman in a mans body. Now you're just a woman. I think they're ignoring the real problem, which is the psychological baggage that seems to go with being "gender confused". You were born the way you are because that's what makes you unique and beautiful. It's why I'm against virtually all cosmetic surgery and why I don't like breast implants, nose jobs, etc. If this boy is confused about who he is, maybe they should be trying to address his confusion so that he can accept that he's gay and move on in life. It's easy to say, "we will give you this procedure and everything will be fine" but it will not be fine. He will still have all the emotional baggage but he will no longer have a penis. I have known many gay men who are happy with life because they are comfortable with who they are.

I think you are confusing gender identity with sexual orientation? Presumably this 8 year old kid isn't sexually attracted to any gender as of yet.

I'm with you on the cosmetic surgery, though.

If I would have been presented with an option at that age that would have made my life all better and taken away all my pain, I probably would have done it too. Unfortunately there is only one procedure that can take your pain away and make it all better.... euthanasia.

I've been told you are going to burn in hell for eternity when you die.

Wait, maybe they meant me rather than you. Never mind.

barfo

 

[Natebishop3]

First of all, I don't see why some parental rights apply to adoptive parents and some don't.

Parental rights are different when you have a child placed in your care by the government. You are subject to the scrutiny of the government, probably more so than a natural parent.

There's no emotional baggage like you claim. I know people who have had the operation and they are much happier than before.

"At age seven, after threatening genital mutilation on himself, psychiatrists diagnosed Thomas with gender identity disorder."

That seems like baggage to me, but I've never threatened to mutilate myself.

As far as how you're born, there are a lot of genetic mistakes made. Twins joined at the hip. A sheep in the news recently born with two heads, etc. This seems like something along those lines to me.

So are you saying that being born gay is a "genetic mistake"?