Politics 2020 Debate part 2

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barfo said:
Heh. Me too.

My big problem with this is that poor people get fucked, because it causes their expenses go up, but they don't get the $1000.
Fix that and I might support it.

barfo
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Is it even possible to levy a new tax without the cost of it trickling down to the poor?
 
SlyPokerCat said:
What about felons who can't find work when they get out of prison? You don't think $1,000 month would help them?

My first house was right next to section 8 housing units. I used to hear people living in those homes talking about how they were just going to rob someone because nobody would hire them and they had no other choice.
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There are people it would help, for sure. I'll bet lots of people on assistance would be helped by $1000, but for some reason they are excluded.

I just don't see any reason why I am more deserving of $1000 than somebody who is currently on assistance. Especially considering that I can afford to pay the extra tax that funds the $1000 handouts, and they can't.

barfo
 
PtldPlatypus said:
Is it even possible to levy a new tax without the cost of it trickling down to the poor?
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Maybe we should just tax them directly and cut out the middle (class) man, then?

barfo
 
barfo said:
There are people it would help, for sure. I'll bet lots of people on assistance would be helped by $1000, but for some reason they are excluded.

I just don't see any reason why I am more deserving of $1000 than somebody who is currently on assistance. Especially considering that I can afford to pay the extra tax that funds the $1000 handouts, and they can't.

barfo
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Something new on Yang's website I hadn't seen. Must have provided more clarification.

Those who served our country and are facing a disability because of it will continue to receive their benefits on top of the Freedom Dividend.

Social Security retirement benefits stack with the Freedom Dividend. Since it is a benefit that people pay into throughout their lives, that money is properly viewed as belonging to them, and they shouldn’t need to choose.

SSDI is based on earned work credits. SSI is a means-tested program. You can collect both SSDI and the Freedom Dividend. Most people who are legally disabled receive both SSDI and SSI. Under the Freedom Dividend, those who are legally disabled would have a choice between collecting SSDI and the Freedom Dividend, or collecting SSDI and SSI, whichever is more generous.

Even some people who receive more than $1,000 a month in SSI would choose to take the Freedom Dividend because it has no preconditions. The Freedom Dividend removes these requirements and guarantees an income, regardless of other factors.
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https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-freedom-dividend-faq/
 
SlyPokerCat said:
Something new on Yang's website I hadn't seen. Must have provided more clarification.
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Agree that's clarification, but doesn't change the picture.

barfo
 
Mediocre Man said:
The biggest problem with the 2 parties today is that no moderate has a chance to represent the party. The people on the left and right are so determined to get their way they want extreme.

COMPROMISE has completely been thrown to the side.
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It's called getting nominated by your base. Then you have to defend those positions in the General Election and that's where it gets complicated.
 
dviss1 said:
You're so wrong on this.

My ex wife's life saving drug Syprine costs over $2000 a month.
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The average monthly price for insulin is $450/month and you know that half the diabetics are paying more. Then there's all the medicines that go along with that.
Hepavitis C treatment is about $84,000 for a three month treatment.
I have to take several injections of Lovenox before each operation. The cost is $268 per shot.
There are lots and lots of medications that can run up the cost.
 
ABM said:
The Donald would be might jealous...

maxresdefault.jpg
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The secret must be his cologne and real teeth.
 
barfo said:
Maybe we should just tax them directly and cut out the middle (class) man, then?

barfo
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It was an honest question.

I've been thinking a lot about UBI lately, and I'm intrigued by the concept. But every time I consider the concept of a VAT to pay for it, my thoughts always go back to the idea that it's just going to get passed down to those whom the UBI is most intended to help. But percentage-wise, how much impact would it have? Would a 10% VAT cause a 10% increase in basic expenses, or would it multiply as levels of transactions are stacked on top of one another? Or would that be lessened by excluding food/necessity purchases from taxation? I don't know. Yang says he's done the math; I certainly haven't yet.

I also wonder if $1000/month is enough to make a real impact. Or if we have enough low-income housing available for the hordes of currently homeless who would endeavor to translate their UBI into roofs over their heads. Or (as you indicated) if it would be severely limited in its effectiveness by being reduced by the amount of benefits already received by those in need. I wonder if it would be possible to implement on a statewide scale (separate from Alaska which is unique with its oil money), as an experiment of sorts.
 
barfo said:
That, to me, makes it a LOT less appealing.

So poor people don't get extra cash, but me and Jeff Bezos get $1000? Neither of us needs $1000, the disabled single person with 3 kids does.

barfo
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Stop means testing. It's smarmy.

SlyPokerCat said:
What about felons who can't find work when they get out of prison? You don't think $1,000 month would help them?

My first house was right next to section 8 housing units. I used to hear people living in those homes talking about how they were just going to rob someone because nobody would hire them and they had no other choice.
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$1000 a month PREVENTS people from becoming felons in the first place.
 
Lanny said:
The average monthly price for insulin is $450/month and you know that half the diabetics are paying more. Then there's all the medicines that go along with that.
Hepavitis C treatment is about $84,000 for a three month treatment.
I have to take several injections of Lovenox before each operation. The cost is $268 per shot.
There are lots and lots of medications that can run up the cost.
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Exactly Lanny! And at present there is no cap.

It's like people just wanna take swipes at Elizabeth Warren.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
It was an honest question.

I've been thinking a lot about UBI lately, and I'm intrigued by the concept. But every time I consider the concept of a VAT to pay for it, my thoughts always go back to the idea that it's just going to get passed down to those whom the UBI is most intended to help. But percentage-wise, how much impact would it have? Would a 10% VAT cause a 10% increase in basic expenses, or would it multiply as levels of transactions are stacked on top of one another? Or would that be lessened by excluding food/necessity purchases from taxation? I don't know. Yang says he's done the math; I certainly haven't yet.

I also wonder if $1000/month is enough to make a real impact. Or if we have enough low-income housing available for the hordes of currently homeless who would endeavor to translate their UBI into roofs over their heads. Or (as you indicated) if it would be severely limited in its effectiveness by being reduced by the amount of benefits already received by those in need. I wonder if it would be possible to implement on a statewide scale (separate from Alaska which is unique with its oil money), as an experiment of sorts.
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A Value Added Tax, VAT, is regressive. Any sales tax is regressive.
 
Lanny said:
Nope, it's a flat tax on items. Therefor, everyone pays the same tax for the same items or services.
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It could be that. Or it could be done differently. Perhaps certain necessities could be excluded. Food. Clothing. Rent. Home utilities. It is possible for a sales tax, or even a VAT, to not be regressive.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
It could be that. Or it could be done differently. Perhaps certain necessities could be excluded. Food. Clothing. Rent. Home utilities. It is possible for a sales tax, or even a VAT, to not be regressive.
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Yes, if it only applied to yachts and yacht parts, for instance.

But, I haven't seen where Yang has proposed any exclusions/limitations.

barfo
 
barfo said:
Yes, if it only applied to yachts and yacht parts, for instance.

But, I haven't seen where Yang has proposed any exclusions/limitations.

barfo
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Hopefully his platform isn't set in stone. I'm more thinking about this at a theoretical level rather than about Yang's proposal specifically.

Maybe I should just create a completely separate UBI thread rather than talking about it here.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
It could be that. Or it could be done differently. Perhaps certain necessities could be excluded. Food. Clothing. Rent. Home utilities. It is possible for a sales tax, or even a VAT, to not be regressive.
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It is by definition regressive. That's what a sales tax is. Unless, you want to check someone's income tax file and only charge them the VAT if they earned over a high threshold.
 
I don't understand why people got their underwear in a bunch just because candidates attacked Obama.
Obama was a far better president than Trump is currently. But he certainly wasn't perfect and made his fair share of mistakes.
Pretending like he was would lead to the same mistakes being made in the 2020 election as Democrats made in the 2016.
 
H.C. said:
I don't understand why people got their underwear in a bunch just because candidates attacked Obama.
Obama was a far better president than Trump is currently. But he certainly wasn't perfect and made his fair share of mistakes.
Pretending like he was would lead to the same mistakes being made in the 2020 election as Democrats made in the 2016.
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Because right now he's the most popular man in the country. It doesn't make sense to go on the attack against the most popular man in the country.
Then there's the issue of what Trump is. He's the least popular President ever and is the nemesis of the Democrats. Seems like he should be the guy they focus on.
 
H.C. said:
I don't understand why people got their underwear in a bunch just because candidates attacked Obama.
Obama was a far better president than Trump is currently. But he certainly wasn't perfect and made his fair share of mistakes.
Pretending like he was would lead to the same mistakes being made in the 2020 election as Democrats made in the 2016.
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Agreed.

As long as Biden holds Obama up as a shield, other candidates will have to punch through that shield in order to make Biden bleed.
There is a right way and a wrong way to do that (from the party point of view) though.
The right way is 'It is no longer 2008, we need to look to the future and learn from the past'.
The wrong way is 'Obama sucked'.

barfo
 
So Morning Consult poll (first one I've seen post-debate) has Warren up 2 and Harris down 3, compared to a week ago, with everyone else unchanged.

barfo
 
barfo said:
So Morning Consult poll (first one I've seen post-debate) has Warren up 2 and Harris down 3, compared to a week ago, with everyone else unchanged.

barfo
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Biden is up one point which means he wasn't hurt in the debate.
 
Lanny said:
Biden is up one point which means he wasn't hurt in the debate.
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True. I ignored him because he has so many points that losing or gaining one doesn't matter too much. Clearly still way out in the lead, I am beginning to wonder if there is anything that will dislodge him. A few months ago I assumed he was a temporary front-runner; seems I was very wrong.

barfo
 
barfo said:
True. I ignored him because he has so many points that losing or gaining one doesn't matter too much. Clearly still way out in the lead, I am beginning to wonder if there is anything that will dislodge him......
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Shoot, maybe Michelle Obama.
 
What do people who like Biden actually like about him? Also, who are they? I haven't talked to a single person who supports him. Granted it's not the biggest sample size but still.
 
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