538's General Election Projections Have Begun

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Minstrel

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I don't know statistical modeling like 538, but from anecdotal evidence I wouldn't be at all surprised to see AZ go Trump, and if that happens his chance of winning the presidency goes up to 45%

http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/arizona/

Too close for my liking.

It's late, so I might be misreading either your post or 538, but I don't see where getting AZ raises Trumps chance to 45%. AZ after all was a Romney state, Trump can win AZ and still lose in a landslide.

barfo
 
Yeah, I don't see anything that implies Arizona materially changes either candidate's odds of winning right now. As things stand, 538 projects Clinton to win ~352 electoral votes. Arizona has 11...even if Trump won those, Clinton would still have an electoral college landslide.

Right now, Arizona (and North Carolina) are "cherry on top" type states for Clinton...meaningless in terms of winning the election, but helpful for winning big enough to claim a "mandate," (as politicians love to do).

Of course, if Trump turns things around and starts to win in states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, then Clinton having a shot in Arizona and North Carolina could be a lot more important in terms of just winning the election.
 
538 isn't simply a poll aggregator like RCP or Huffington Post. They use a model, which adjusts based on factors that they've found to be predictive from past elections. Their methodology is laid out at the link I gave in my original post.
 
538 isn't simply a poll aggregator like RCP or Huffington Post. They use a model, which adjusts based on factors that they've found to be predictive from past elections. Their methodology is laid out at the link I gave in my original post.

2012 proves that Republicans and other conservatives don't believe in these liberally-slanted polls; their President, Mitt Romney, has been great for them since he won their polling in 2012.
 
538 isn't simply a poll aggregator like RCP or Huffington Post. They use a model, which adjusts based on factors that they've found to be predictive from past elections. Their methodology is laid out at the link I gave in my original post.

It sure looks like their polls are either out of date or they're ignoring the 5 most recent polls in PA.
 
It sure looks like their polls are either out of date or they're ignoring the 5 most recent polls in PA.

As I recall, they use the most recent poll from a given agency (but previous polls from the same agency matter for trend lines). Of the four most recent polls in Pennsylvania, they come from the same two agencies (Quinnipiac and PPP) and 538 has the most recent from each of those two polling agencies.
 
As I recall, they use the most recent poll from a given agency (but previous polls from the same agency matter for trend lines). Of the four most recent polls in Pennsylvania, they come from the same two agencies (Quinnipiac and PPP) and 538 has the most recent from each of those two polling agencies.

They put the most "weight" (1.75) on a really old poll that looks like a really big outlier.
 
They put the most "weight" (1.75) on a really old poll that looks like a really big outlier.

That poll also has by far the biggest sample size and it has the best pollster grade (compared to the more recent polls). I agree that it's strange that such an old poll has the highest weight, but recency isn't the only factor they use for weighting.

The real issue is that there still isn't a ton of polling in Pennsylvania. You're stuck with using smaller polls or an older poll.
 
That poll also has by far the biggest sample size and it has the best pollster grade (compared to the more recent polls). I agree that it's strange that such an old poll has the highest weight, but recency isn't the only factor they use for weighting.

The real issue is that there still isn't a ton of polling in Pennsylvania. You're stuck with using smaller polls or an older poll.

Why do you think sample size matters more than a) outlier, b) how old the poll is? At that point in time, Ted Cruz was still running and getting votes in the republican primaries, Sanders in the democratic ones (he's still running, apparently). :)
 
Why do you think sample size matters more than a) outlier, b) how old the poll is?

Larger sample size improves reliability a lot. I can poll myself, with a sample size of one, but the result will be highly volatile compared with another person's self-poll (sample size: 1). The fact that such a large poll showed Clinton that far ahead (and, yes, Cruz and Sanders were technically still in it, but in both parties voters were coalescing around Trump and Clinton) is significant. More significant than more recent, smaller polls? I have no idea, off the top of my head.
 
How many more attacks by the followers of Islam will it take to flush these polls down down the tube?
 
Larger sample size improves reliability a lot. I can poll myself, with a sample size of one, but the result will be highly volatile compared with another person's self-poll (sample size: 1). The fact that such a large poll showed Clinton that far ahead (and, yes, Cruz and Sanders were technically still in it, but in both parties voters were coalescing around Trump and Clinton) is significant. More significant than more recent, smaller polls? I have no idea, off the top of my head.

I don't have a quibble with the sample size. It's how old the survey is and that it's way out of line with every other poll and that they chose to weight it 1.5x more than the polls less favorable to their preferred candidate.

Cruz didn't drop out until about a month later. The history is undeniable.

And as MarAzul points out, quite a few potentially opinion changing events have occurred since (not limited to the others dropping out of the race).
 
they chose to weight it 1.5x more than the polls less favorable to their preferred candidate.

They don't choose the weightings personally, the computer model does. You can continue believing, as you did in 2008 and 2012, that 538 biases their model to "make it favor their preferred candidate." Or intervenes when their robot buddy goes off message.

This cycle, unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be a good site for unskewed polls. You can try this Twitter feed, though.
 
They don't choose the weightings personally, the computer model does. You can continue believing, as you did in 2008 and 2012, that 538 biases their model to "make it favor their preferred candidate." Or intervenes when their robot buddy goes off message.

This cycle, unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be a good site for unskewed polls. You can try this Twitter feed, though.

Since you like 538.com so much:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-polls-were-skewed-toward-democrats/

And:

http://thewire.in/47165/renowned-po...hillary-clinton-in-us-presidential-elections/

However, despite Silver’s successes in the last two elections, many – such as New York Magazine‘s Ed Kilgore – are skeptical about his predictions. This is in large part because of a slew of huge misses in the last two years. Salon reportedsome “high-profile” upsets for Silver after the 2014 midterm elections, both in senate and gubernatorial results. He had abjectly failed to anticipate the decisive influx of Republicans, and his models consistently portrayed an uncertainty driven by an assumed close race. In response, Silver published a piece in his defence that detailed ways in which the polls on which he based his models were skewed towards Democrats.

Even more damningly, Silver severely underestimated the allure of Trump, and in August 2015 gave him a 2% chance to win the Republican nomination. It was only by mid-February that his FiveThirtyEight foretold a 45-50% likelihood of a Trump nomination. In a piece titled ‘How I Acted Like a Pundit and Screwed Up on Donald Trump‘, Silver attempts to explain the miss by citing a lack of statistical models to track Trump due to there being no precedent for his rise, and an over-reliance on gut feelings and pundit-esque “subjective odds”. “When Trump came around, I’d turn out to be the overconfident expert,” he said, “making pretty much exactly the mistakes I’d accused my critics of four years earlier”.

But this professed ‘unforeseeability’ of the Trump phenomenon doesn’t explain why, this primary season, he predicted a 99% chance of Clinton winning the North Carolina Democratic primary, which senator Bernie Sanders won by half a point, or a 90% chance of winning Indiana which, again, Sanders won. Clinton is the archetypal establishment candidate for the democratic party and there should have been no dearth of data to build an analysis model on.
 
Even more damningly, Silver severely underestimated the allure of Trump, and in August 2015 gave him a 2% chance to win the Republican nomination.

This is damning of Silver's personal ability to pick'em from his gut but says absolutely nothing about his forecast model. His "2%" prediction was just him eyeballing precedent and political science theory--it wasn't based on a statistical model. Once they began forecasting the primaries, using the poll numbers, the model had a strong success rate. The polls, in fact, didn't underestimate Trump--they generally got his results correct and occasionally overestimated his strength.

For me, the lesson of the primaries is that one needs to be more rigorous, not less so, when forecasting elections. That means building a model instead of winging it. In contrast to our early, back-of-the-envelope skepticism about Trump, FiveThirtyEight’s forecast models were largely accurate in the primaries, with our polls-only model calling 53 of 58 races correctly1 and our polls-plus model calling 52 of 58. The polls were a long way from being perfect, but they were wrong within normal parameters: Upsets happened about as often as they were supposed to happen, according to our models.

Nor did the polls underestimate Trump. National polls had him leading the field all along. State-by-state polls overestimated him slightly — Trump lost states where the polls had him favored, such as Iowa and Oklahoma — although not by enough to cost him the nomination.

Link

If your point is that his models sometimes get it wrong and aren't perfect, you've successfully defeated that strawman argument! Good work! Your earlier comment was that the statisticians at 538 are purposefully biased, adjusting things to force a result for "their preferred candidate." That's what you also said in 2008 and 2012. Reality proved to be a bit less easy to argue with, though.

Oh, and about your "evidence" that 538 is putting their thumb on the scale--a single Pennsylvania poll that isn't the most recent one yet has the highest weight:

WMxZxNs.png


538 officially cooking the books for Trump, their preferred candidate. Clinton needs to beat Trump and the 538 media machine.
 
National polls mean what, exactly?

The PA polls are relevant to the Electoral College, and 538 says Trump has like a 2.5% chance to win (ok, I exaggerate deliberately to mock Silver).
 
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/does-donald-trump-have-a-ceiling/

harry: I’m still selling this, but I’d have to be the dumbest or most stubborn person alive to think his chances haven’t risen SIGNIFICANTLY.

natesilver: I’m holding. Putting Trump’s chances at somewhere around 45 percent to 50 percent seems reasonable (ton win the nomination). There are reasons to be skeptical of how high Trump’s ceiling is. That’s been a big part of the reason for our skepticism about Trump from the beginning, really. But he’s ahead in basically every poll in basically every state. Ordinarily, you’d expect a candidate like that to be priced quite a bit higher than 45 percent to 50 percent, so there’s already a pretty steep discount built in.
 
The guy doesn't have access to his own models?
 
They seemed to mean a lot to you when you were updating them daily during the brief period that Trump was catching up. :dunno:

That's only popularity.

Constantly reporting the good polls for Hiliar and not reporting the good ones for Trump does what, exactly? It's not "nothing" - I'm sure you agree. It does influence voters (maybe Hiliar's won't bother to vote, she's got it in the bag, same for Trump - no point). The average voter may not make the distinction about the state polls/Electoral College and the popularity polls.
 
The guy doesn't have access to his own models?

He does. Until Trump blew away Cruz in New York and Republicans began to coalesce around him, it was far from certain Trump was going to win the nomination. In fact, after he lost Wisconsin decisively, it was probably below a 50% chance. He was always (after he won his initial primaries) likely to win a plurality, but not a majority--and without a majority, he was an underdog in a contested convention.
 
That's only popularity.

Constantly reporting the good polls for Hiliar and not reporting the good ones for Trump does what, exactly? It's not "nothing" - I'm sure you agree. It does influence voters (maybe Hiliar's won't bother to vote, she's got it in the bag, same for Trump - no point). The average voter may not make the distinction about the state polls/Electoral College and the popularity polls.

It's simply your bias that causes you to perceive that only pro-Clinton polls are reported. I've seen lots of "new poll finds Clinton and Trump tied" and "Trump up 2 in Ohio" articles.
 
He does. Until Trump blew away Cruz in New York and Republicans began to coalesce around him, it was far from certain Trump was going to win the nomination. In fact, after he lost Wisconsin decisively, it was probably below a 50% chance. He was always (after he won his initial primaries) likely to win a plurality, but not a majority--and without a majority, he was an underdog in a contested convention.

Below a 50% chance. Good indicator for how the current model predicts the November election.
 
It's simply your bias that causes you to perceive that only pro-Clinton polls are reported. I've seen lots of "new poll finds Clinton and Trump tied" and "Trump up 2 in Ohio" articles.

Not on the networks or CNN or MSNBC.
 
Seen a Rasmussen Reports poll in Silver's model?

WMxZxNs.png


Not there. ^^^

white_house_watch_06_30_16.jpg
 
Below a 50% chance. Good indicator for how the current model predicts the November election.

There's a pretty big difference--as I said, he was always very likely (based on the polls) to win a plurality. Guess what? In the general election, a plurality wins. There is no contested convention at the end where if you don't win on the first ballot, your electoral college delegates can defect.

If the nomination worked the same way, Trump would have been a crushing favorite pretty much the entire way. So yes, with Clinton in that spot now, it does make a good parallel. She is a crushing favorite right now, just as Trump would have been if the primary season worked like a general election.

Of course, something could always shake up the race. Reagan came from way behind, Bush the Elder came from way behind, etc. That's why Trump has a 20% chance. 20% chances sometimes come though...1 in 5 times. It's something to give you a glimmer of hope, at least.
 

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