8579.9

[PapaG]

-678.91 today

 

[The_Lillard_King]

GM Shares Fall to Lowest Level Since 1950.

http://finance.yahoo.com/




It is almost surreal

 

[PapaG]

GM Shares Fall to Lowest Level Since 1950.

http://finance.yahoo.com/




It is almost surreal

We are so screwed, and nobody seems to care. I see 10% unemployment by the end of the year, and I'm guessing I'll be one of the unemployed.

 

[PapaG]

There is no other way to spin it. We are seeing our markets collapse, and there doesn't seem to be an end in sight. As for a recovery...I can't even fathom that at this point. There is going to be literally a next to nil amount of capital to back future loans, and I just hope that the millions who are already on a mortgage won't see their respective banks collapse.

15 months ago, the Dow jumped over 14,000. After tomorrow, it may well be near half of that.

My theory has always been, that if we are to dream, the flatteries of hope are as cheap, and pleasanter, than the gloom of despair.

Thomas Jefferson

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

There is no other way to spin it. We are seeing our markets collapse, and there doesn't seem to be an end in sight. As for a recovery...I can't even fathom that at this point. There is going to be literally a next to nil amount of capital to back future loans, and I just hope that the millions who are already on a mortgage won't see their respective banks collapse.

15 months ago, the Dow jumped over 14,000. After tomorrow, it may well be near half of that.

Coming soon: The Central Bank!

 

[PapaG]

Coming soon: The Central Bank!

ACORN is flooding our electoral system with fraudulent ballots - in an obvious fashion - to destroy the upcoming election through confusion.

They did the same thing with the housing market. They flooded the system with fraudulent loans, and caused the same type of confusion.

In order to create a new society, you must destroy the current society first. Then the people will cry out for a savior. Be that savior God or the devil, they will accept him.(Note how the left tried to portray Obama as a savior or messiah).

 

[The_Lillard_King]

There is no other way to spin it. We are seeing our markets collapse, and there doesn't seem to be an end in sight. As for a recovery...I can't even fathom that at this point. There is going to be literally a next to nil amount of capital to back future loans, and I just hope that the millions who are already on a mortgage won't see their respective banks collapse.

15 months ago, the Dow jumped over 14,000. After tomorrow, it may well be near half of that.

I had lunch with a CPA who has been doing it for 25 years. He is convinced that we are heading to a depression and no one is grasping the idea. he was pushing to be as thrifty as possible and talking about how gov't will be way under funded and to expect things like libraries closing, police forces being gutted social services completely drying up.

He painted a very bleak picture of the upcoming 5-10 years. Of course he is a CPA (no offense to CPAs as I said that tongue in cheek)

 

[PapaG]

I had lunch with a CPA who has been doing it for 25 years. He is convinced that we are heading to a depression and no one is grasping the idea. he was pushing to be as thrifty as possible and talking about how gov't will be way under funded and to expect things like libraries closing, police forces being gutted social services completely drying up.

He painted a very bleak picture of the upcoming 5-10 years. Of course he is a CPA (no offense to CPAs as I said that tongue in cheek)

Bush called the leaders of Congress into a closed door and classified meeting a few weeks prior to the "bailout" panic. Our economy is largely based on credit, with the mortgage being almost an afterthought, and on top of that people live far above their means due to credit cards.

Your friend probably isn't that far off-base with his predictions. I have had conversations today with business associates that have disturbed me to the point I have to vent on this board. WE are the government, and if WE can't afford for ourselves, how will we afford for our governmental services?

 

[SodaPopinski]

Most of what I've been reading and hearing from the "financial experts" is they expect the Dow to bottom out around 8000.

But who knows. Consumer and investor confidence is so low right now I could see the bottom dropping further than that.

Just a perfect storm of low consumer/investor confidence, rising cost of living, a mucked up credit flow, and a reluctance of the public to save and invest when they can barely afford to pay for the basics.

Not to mention we have a lame-duck, do-nothing president and members of Congress who are so petrified to do anything bold for fear they'd alienate their constituents in an election year.

I'm sincerely hoping that things will start moving in the right direction after the election, since you'll likely have a more motivated legislature and less nervous public with the hope of a new direction with new leadership.

-Pop

 

[mook]

Hey, it's always darkest before the dawn. (Or before it's pitch black.)

Anyway, call me naive but I just can't imagine the world is going to fall apart. It's just in too many peoples' interests for it to do that. We'll see a massive amount of government spending around the world that will keep us from sinking into depression. We're in for a recession, most likely a bad one, but it won't be forever.

I think we're having a protracted version of Black Monday back in 1987.

 

[PapaG]

Hey, it's always darkest before the dawn. (Or before it's pitch black.)

Anyway, call me naive but I just can't imagine the world is going to fall apart. It's just in too many peoples' interests for it to do that. We'll see a massive amount of government spending around the world that will keep us from sinking into depression. We're in for a recession, most likely a bad one, but it won't be forever.

I think we're having a protracted version of Black Monday back in 1987.

A fine line on keeping government spending at a level where we don't see worldwide inflation. Also, the difference between Black Monday and today is that today, the collapse of lenders led directly to the collapse of the markets.

Scary times...

 

[CelticKing]

Obama will solve the problems. (or the Democrats would like you to think so)

 

[e_blazer]

The great thing about me being self-employed is that I don't have to worry about being laid off.

The bad thing about being self-employed is that I suddenly seem to have very few clients.

Recession sucks.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

I do both. I have a day job and I also keep myself busy with consulting projects. I'm pretty safe for the time being, I have enough connections that I am easily hirable if need be. But its always good just to have some backup/sidebiz going.

 

[SodaPopinski]

Obama will solve the problems. (or the Democrats would like you to think so)

Ummm ... no. This is not a simple issue that one person can solve.

Do I think Obama will do a better job of implementing programs aimed at improving our economy than John McCain will? Yes.

But I'm smart enough to realize we are in an absolute shit-storm right now that this is going to take a while to dig out of.

And I'm guessing your smart enough to realize that the Republicans have controlled the White House for the last 8 years and Congress for 10 of the last 12 years while we were getting into this mess.

-Pop

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

Well, at least Gub'ment will take care of us and control every aspect of our lives! Redistribution of wealth bitches!

 

[e_blazer]

And I'm guessing your smart enough to realize that the Republicans have controlled the White House for the last 8 years and Congress for 10 of the last 12 years while we were getting into this mess.

-Pop

And I'm guessing you're smart enough to realize that there's blame enough to go around for both parties. While it makes great political theater to point fingers at "the other guys", the fact is that economies do go through cycles, and that yoyos of all political flavors make stupid decisions to benefit their constituencies and keep themselves in office.

Five minutes of listening to Barney Frank makes me long to have Barney Fife or Barney Rubble in control of his committee.

 

[BlazerWookee]

Medium-sized and small retailers seem pretty confident, at least a good percentage of the ones my distributors and I deal with. I sell retail display fixtures, and we can't build them fast enough. We're working overtime straight through the middle of November, and if we get the job I quoted today, that'll probably last into December. I'm not saying that things aren't bad, I'm just saying that many retailers think things won't be all bad, and they are buying lots of fixtures to display products they believe will sell well enough during the holiday season to justify the expense.

 

[BlazerWookee]

And I just thought of something, maybe it was a good thing that I had to live on my 401k in the post 9-11 downturn. I'd be REALLY stressed right now if I owned stock.

 

[CelticKing]

Ummm ... no. This is not a simple issue that one person can solve.

Do I think Obama will do a better job of implementing programs aimed at improving our economy than John McCain will? Yes.

But I'm smart enough to realize we are in an absolute shit-storm right now that this is going to take a while to dig out of.

And I'm guessing your smart enough to realize that the Republicans have controlled the White House for the last 8 years and Congress for 10 of the last 12 years while we were getting into this mess.

-Pop

Yeah of course, he'll bring socialism, and socialist programs, which will solve everything.

Dream on America!!!

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Most of what I've been reading and hearing from the "financial experts" is they expect the Dow to bottom out around 8000.

But who knows. Consumer and investor confidence is so low right now I could see the bottom dropping further than that.

Just a perfect storm of low consumer/investor confidence, rising cost of living, a mucked up credit flow, and a reluctance of the public to save and invest when they can barely afford to pay for the basics.

Not to mention we have a lame-duck, do-nothing president and members of Congress who are so petrified to do anything bold for fear they'd alienate their constituents in an election year.

I'm sincerely hoping that things will start moving in the right direction after the election, since you'll likely have a more motivated legislature and less nervous public with the hope of a new direction with new leadership.

-Pop

If we slip into a depression and people are really scratching to get by, how does Obama justify raising taxes on the low & middle class like he promises?

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

lowering taxes on low and middle class families won't do shit because they contribute almost nothing.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

lowering taxes on low and middle class families won't do shit because they contribute almost nothing.

Are you sure? My wife has a business, makes about $15,000 per year and pays 40%. I make about $60,000 and pay nearly 30%. That's low? That's insignificant?

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

Are you sure? My wife has a business, makes about $15,000 per year and pays 40%. I make about $60,000 and pay nearly 30%. That's low? That's insignificant?

In the grand scheme of the economy, the rich pay a disproportionate amount of the taxes in this country.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2007/10/top-1-pay-more-.html

The new data shows that the top-earning 25% of taxpayers (AGI over $62,068) earned 67.5% of the nation's income, but they paid more than four out of every five dollars collected by the federal income tax (86%). The top 1% of taxpayers (AGI over $364,657) earned approximately 21.2% of the nation's income (as defined by AGI), yet paid 39.4% of all federal income taxes. That means the top 1% of tax returns paid about the same amount of federal individual income taxes as the bottom 95% of tax returns.

 

[el_Diablo]

the top 1% of taxpayers (AGI over $364,657) earned approximately 21.2% of the nation's income

insane.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

In the grand scheme of the economy, the rich pay a disproportionate amount of the taxes in this country.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2007/10/top-1-pay-more-.html

The new data shows that the top-earning 25% of taxpayers (AGI over $62,068) earned 67.5% of the nation's income, but they paid more than four out of every five dollars collected by the federal income tax (86%). The top 1% of taxpayers (AGI over $364,657) earned approximately 21.2% of the nation's income (as defined by AGI), yet paid 39.4% of all federal income taxes. That means the top 1% of tax returns paid about the same amount of federal individual income taxes as the bottom 95% of tax returns.

This is a bad thing xericx?

This 1% of taxpayers I'm guessing are some pretty wealthy people with very good lifestyles. They made their fortunes and can live their lifestyle because of everything this country has given them (freedom, democratic society, capatalist market)

They should give back to the country that gave them the opportunity to make thier fortune. They should give back to the country that protects thier freedom and provides them a democratic society. They should give back to the country that allowed them to grow and become some of the most fortunate poeple in the world.

Giving money back to a country so that the country can continue to be the best country in the entire world to live in is not too much to ask from the top 1% of wealthy americans.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

This is a bad thing xericx?
This 1% of taxpayers I'm guessing are some pretty wealthy people with very good lifestyles. They made their fortunes and can live their lifestyle because of everything this country has given them (freedom, democratic society, capatalist market)

They should give back to the country that gave them the opportunity to make thier fortune. They should give back to the country that protects thier freedom and provides them a democratic society. They should give back to the country that allowed them to grow and become some of the most fortunate poeple in the world.

Giving money back to a country so that the country can continue to be the best country in the entire world to live in is not too much to ask from the top 1% of wealthy americans.

Its patriotic, isn't it?

By making more money, they ARE giving back more. Suppose the tax rate is 30%. Someone making 1 million a year is giving 300,000. Someone making 30,000 is giving 9,000.

You can say that the richer person has more money to give...yeah...well that's how life is. They make more and therefore have more room to spend for things.

...however.....

They are penalized for being more successful because they get not only taxed more, they are taxed at a higher percentage. To me, it doesn't seem fair. I'm ok with them paying more money if they make more, but to be taxed at a higher percentage than everyone else is stupid.

Why should they be forced to pay a higher percentage of their income than everyone else. I believe in fairness across the board.

 

[barfo]

Hey, it's always darkest before the dawn. (Or before it's pitch black.)

Anyway, call me naive but I just can't imagine the world is going to fall apart. It's just in too many peoples' interests for it to do that.

Is it different than 1929 in that respect? Did people back then just not care?

barfo

 

[barfo]

Why should they be forced to pay a higher percentage of their income than everyone else. I believe in fairness across the board.

Because it is better for everyone if they pay a higher percentage. Them paying a higher percentage lowers the percentage that middle class taxpayers pay. That increases disposable income for the middle class.

Why is that important? Because there are many more middle class taxpayers than rich people. If 100 million middle class people each have $1000, they can buy 100 million computers. If instead 100,000 rich people each have $1 million, they won't each buy 1000 computers. They might buy 10 computers apiece, but that reduces the demand for computers by a factor of 100, and now the computer manufacturer is out of business.

The economy is built on consumerism, and the middle-class are the consumers. Give them more disposable income (or more credit) and they'll buy more. Less money? Less purchasing, and the economy goes downhill (see, e.g., 2009).

barfo

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

Because it is better for everyone if they pay a higher percentage. Them paying a higher percentage lowers the percentage that middle class taxpayers pay. That increases disposable income for the middle class.

Why is that important? Because there are many more middle class taxpayers than rich people. If 100 million middle class people each have $1000, they can buy 100 million computers. If instead 100,000 rich people each have $1 million, they won't each buy 1000 computers. They might buy 10 computers apiece, but that reduces the demand for computers by a factor of 100, and now the computer manufacturer is out of business.

The economy is built on consumerism, and the middle-class are the consumers. Give them more disposable income (or more credit) and they'll buy more. Less money? Less purchasing, and the economy goes downhill (see, e.g., 2009).

barfo

That's a spurious justification for a cascading taxation system.

I could counter that by stating that rich people tend to hire more people, therfore providing more employment and jobs in this country. You can make up thousands of scenarios.

Face it, its an unfair system. A system of redistribution of wealth. Tax everyone at the same rate. Its the American way. Punishing one's success and upward mobility isn't.