A civil discourse on the 2nd amendment

[barfo]

What do you know? Risk of dying by gunshot in the USA down 50%, too. Without banning guns.

What about dying by gunshot that isn't homicide?

barfo

 

[Rastapopoulos]

It's always been pretty obvious to me that the intention of the second amendment was to keep the populace armed in case the government ever got to big for its britches.

I admire your faith in your hermeneutic skills, if not your spelling of "too". However, here's an alternative theory:

The real reason the Second Amendment was ratified, and why it says "State" instead of "Country" (the Framers knew the difference - see the 10th Amendment), was to preserve the slave patrol militias in the southern states, which was necessary to get Virginia's vote. Founders Patrick Henry, George Mason, and James Madison were totally clear on that . . . and we all should be too. In the beginning, there were the militias. In the South, they were also called the "slave patrols," and they were regulated by the states.

 

[barfo]

Gun deaths which attract smaller headlines are 80 times more common, yet the national rate of gun homicide remains 30 times lower than that of the United States."

I can't figure out what the first half of that sentence is saying. Is it that Aussies kill themselves with guns at 80 times the rate of Americans, or at 80x the rate they used to before the gun ban, or something else?

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

You act like it is some sort of law of physics that the reelection rate is 80%.
Don't you think it might be that most congresspeople don't piss off their constituents enough to get voted out?



My congresswoman is a freshman in the minority. I think it's safe to say she hasn't done much.



Suppose a congressperson proposes and succeeds in locating a new nuclear waste dump in the largest city in his/her district. What do you think the likelihood of being reelected is? 80%?

barfo

Since 1964, the reelection rate is 80%. Call it a law of physics if you like. I call it prearranged.

 

[Denny Crane]

What about dying by gunshot that isn't homicide?

barfo

What about it?

 

[Denny Crane]

I can't figure out what the first half of that sentence is saying. Is it that Aussies kill themselves with guns at 80 times the rate of Americans, or at 80x the rate they used to before the gun ban, or something else?

barfo

Australians shoot each other one at a time.

 

[barfo]

What about it?

You said:

Risk of dying by gunshot in the USA down 50%, too.

And then you only presented data on homicide deaths by gunshot.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

You said:


And then you only presented data on homicide deaths by gunshot.

barfo

USA .2 accidental gunshot deaths per 100,000 people. A few hundred per year.

So... what about it?

 

[barfo]

USA .2 accidental gunshot deaths per 100,000 people. A few hundred per year.

So... what about it?

What about it is your data didn't show what you claimed it did.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

What about it is your data didn't show what you claimed it did.

barfo

It shows exactly what I claimed it does.

Of course, in any country, your chance of getting shot is 100% if you point a gun to your head and pull the trigger.

 

[barfo]

It shows exactly what I claimed it does.

No, it does not, and you know it. If the accidental/suicide death toll from guns goes up by the same amount the homicide death toll declines, there has not been a decrease in gun deaths.

Of course, in any country, your chance of getting shot is 100% if you point a gun to your head and pull the trigger.

Wrong again. Some people survive a gunshot to the head, self-inflicted or otherwise.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

No, it does not, and you know it. If the accidental/suicide death toll from guns goes up by the same amount the homicide death toll declines, there has not been a decrease in gun deaths.



Wrong again. Some people survive a gunshot to the head, self-inflicted or otherwise.

barfo

If suicide by gun goes down, but they resort to poison instead, what difference does it make?

I stand by my correct presentation of the data. Your chances of dying by gunshot went down by half. Unless I was standing next to you when the bullet you fired passed through your empty head and hit me.

.2 per 100,000 population. Not much of a chance in the first place.

 

[MARIS61]

If the accidental/suicide death toll from guns goes up by the same amount the homicide death toll declines, there has not been a decrease in gun deaths.
barfo

No data exists to suggest clumsy/depressed people would die at a different rate if guns were banned. I have and still do know both suicidal people and clumsy people, and like you or I they will do what they are going to do.

 

[barfo]

If suicide by gun goes down, but they resort to poison instead, what difference does it make?

None to me. But since you brought it up, do you have any evidence that people who commit suicide with a gun would succeed at another method if a gun had not been available?

I stand by my correct presentation of the data.

Stand by it then. It wasn't correct, and you know it, but you go ahead and pretend like you don't know the difference between deaths by gun and homicides by gun. That'll be very convincing.

Your chances of dying by gunshot went down by half. Unless I was standing next to you when the bullet you fired passed through your empty head and hit me.

That line doesn't actually make sense. My chances of dying went down by half unless I accidentally shoot you?

barfo

 

[Masbee]

Has anyone ever heard of Australia's relatively recent ban on many guns after a mass shooting? It's an amazing story, and proof that having 300 million guns out there can still be handled with the right regulation and laws.

This is from CNN.com:

"In a popular tourist spot at Port Arthur, Tasmania, in April 1996, a lone gunman killed 20 innocents with his first 29 bullets, all in the space of 90 seconds.

"New legislation agreed to by all states and territories specifically addressed mass shootings: Rapid-fire rifles and shotguns were banned, gun owner licensing was tightened and remaining firearms were registered to uniform national standards. In two nationwide, federally funded gun buybacks, plus large-scale voluntary surrenders and state gun amnesties both before and after Port Arthur, Australia collected and destroyed more than a million firearms, perhaps one-third of the national stock.

"No other nation had attempted anything on this scale.

"In the years after the Port Arthur massacre, the risk of dying by gunshot in Australia fell by more than 50% -- and stayed there. In the 16 years since the announcement of legislation specifically designed to reduce gun massacres, Australia has seen no mass shootings. Gun deaths which attract smaller headlines are 80 times more common, yet the national rate of gun homicide remains 30 times lower than that of the United States."

LINK.

What happened to the rates of rape and assault in Australia?

 

[Denny Crane]

None to me. But since you brought it up, do you have any evidence that people who commit suicide with a gun would succeed at another method if a gun had not been available?



Stand by it then. It wasn't correct, and you know it, but you go ahead and pretend like you don't know the difference between deaths by gun and homicides by gun. That'll be very convincing.



That line doesn't actually make sense. My chances of dying went down by half unless I accidentally shoot you?

barfo

It was correct then and still is now.

Your chance of dying from gunshot is 1/2 just as the chart shows.

The odds would double if gunshots killed two people at once. Duh.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/australia

Suicides any method, Australia, 1996 - 2,393, 2010 - 2,418.

 

[barfo]

It was correct then and still is now.

Your chance of dying from gunshot is 1/2 just as the chart shows.

Sorry, that's completely wrong (especially as written: my chances are much smaller than 1 in 2).

In actual fact, whites, if they die of gunshot wounds, it's likely because they pulled the trigger themselves. For example in Oregon in some recent year, there were 96 suicides by gun and 11 homicides. Cut the gun homicide rate by half, and my whiteboy statistical chances of dying by gunshot are reduced by about 6%, not 50% as you claim.

barfo

 

[MARIS61]

Being ignored are the many legally justified gun deaths which are part of the total number. In 2010 there were 13 self defense gun deaths in Oregon which no doubt LIMITED the perps from causing more gun deaths.

 

[MARIS61]

Sorry, that's completely wrong (especially as written: my chances are much smaller than 1 in 2).

In actual fact, whites, if they die of gunshot wounds, it's likely because they pulled the trigger themselves. For example in Oregon in some recent year, there were 96 suicides by gun and 11 homicides. Cut the gun homicide rate by half, and my whiteboy statistical chances of dying by gunshot are reduced by about 6%, not 50% as you claim.

barfo

Racist.

 

[Denny Crane]

Sorry, that's completely wrong (especially as written: my chances are much smaller than 1 in 2).

In actual fact, whites, if they die of gunshot wounds, it's likely because they pulled the trigger themselves. For example in Oregon in some recent year, there were 96 suicides by gun and 11 homicides. Cut the gun homicide rate by half, and my whiteboy statistical chances of dying by gunshot are reduced by about 6%, not 50% as you claim.

barfo

ONE HALF, not one in two.

As long as you stay in some recent year in Oregon, you may be right.

Nationally, not right at all.

 

[MARIS61]

ONE HALF, not one in two.

"If you've got 50%, you've got about half."
Howard Roberts

 

[barfo]

ONE HALF, not one in two.

As long as you stay in some recent year in Oregon, you may be right.

Nationally, not right at all.

Wrong again, Denny.

Here's a linky for ye.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Wrong again, Denny.

Here's a linky for ye.

barfo

Until you put a gun to your head, the chances of you dying that way is zero.

Linky stinky.

 

[barfo]

Until you put a gun to your head, the chances of you dying that way is zero.

So what? Until someone murders you with a gun, the chances of you dying that way is zero. Shit, until anything happens the chances of it happening are zero, if you want to play that way.

Wouldn't it be simpler to just say 'oh, I meant homicides when I said 'gun deaths''?

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

So what? Until someone murders you with a gun, the chances of you dying that way is zero. Shit, until anything happens the chances of it happening are zero, if you want to play that way.

Wouldn't it be simpler to just say 'oh, I meant homicides when I said 'gun deaths''?

barfo

No. Suicide isn't chance. Getting hit by a stray bullet during a drive by shooting is chance.

Wouldn't it be easier for you to admit people who want to die will find a way with or without guns.

Your chances of dying from a gunshot went down by half, without banning guns. Fact.

 

[barfo]

No. Suicide isn't chance. Getting hit by a stray bullet during a drive by shooting is chance.

Just keep flailing away then. Homicide (which is what you quoted statistics for) is no more random than suicide.

Wouldn't it be easier for you to admit people who want to die will find a way with or without guns.

If presented with some evidence for that, I'd admit it. You've given none. I'm inclined to believe that since suicide is often an impulsive decision, it's likely that guns make it easier to carry out before the impulse passes.

Your chances of dying from a gunshot went down by half, without banning guns. Fact.

As long as the only type of gunshot we consider is someone else intentionally shooting me, yes. Fact, yet a fact insistently misrepresented by you.

And, of course, that's due to a drop in violent crime of all types, and it doesn't mean that the rate will keep dropping or even stay the same. Or that the current rate is acceptable.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Suicides of all kinds in Australia numbered ~2000 in 1996, the year they enacted their ban, and remained at ~2,000 since.

You can go back and look at a not stinky linky I posted for your benefit.

Your chance of being shot went down by one half, without a gun ban. Fact.

There's no evidence Australia's going to have no crime or its crime rate will continue dropping or even stay the same.

 

[barfo]

Suicides of all kinds in Australia numbered ~2000 in 1996, the year they enacted their ban, and remained at ~2,000 since.

You can go back and look at a not stinky linky I posted for your benefit.

Your chance of being shot went down by one half, without a gun ban. Fact.

There's no evidence Australia's going to have no crime or its crime rate will continue dropping or even stay the same.

Good to see you finally admitted defeat.

barfo

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Suicides of all kinds in Australia numbered ~2000 in 1996, the year they enacted their ban, and remained at ~2,000 since.

You can go back and look at a not stinky linky I posted for your benefit.

Your chance of being shot went down by one half, without a gun ban. Fact.

There's no evidence Australia's going to have no crime or its crime rate will continue dropping or even stay the same.

Good to see you finally admitted defeat.

barfo

I think you two should be this forum's first same sex marriage.

Not saying either of you are gay, just that you argue like an old married couple.

 

[barfo]

I think you two should be this forum's first same sex marriage.

Only if we can get Shooter to officiate.

barfo