A Dominant low post player

[Dan Marang]

Plumlee and Davis have done a more than acceptable job for just about every game except that one.... I struggle to see how that one example is an indication of season failure in the front court. Sure, we shouldnt have lost to them and it sucks, but they do amazingly enough have the very early stages of a decent team there, and apparently, sometimes they click - just happened to be vs. us :/

If you're talking about post defense- I could go off and list a dozen games this season where Plumlee has been absolutely destroyed by his competition. Plumlee is not starting center- and asking him to play on starting centers on a nightly basis will end up with him being put in the basket numerous times.

Ed Davis isn't a bad post/interior defender, but he's not called on to do it very often either. He's a decent weak side shot blocker- other than Aminu, probably the best on the roster right now.

If you're saying that those 2 combine for satisfactory interior defense on a nightly you're setting the bar really low.

 

[BlayZa]

If you're talking about post defense- I could go off and list a dozen games this season where Plumlee has been absolutely destroyed by his competition. Plumlee is not starting center- and asking him to play on starting centers on a nightly basis will end up with him being put in the basket numerous times.

Ed Davis isn't a bad post/interior defender, but he's not called on to do it very often either. He's a decent weak side shot blocker- other than Aminu, probably the best on the roster right now.

If you're saying that those 2 combine for satisfactory interior defense on a nightly you're setting the bar really low.

Vonleh isn't a starting PF either, but we keep on persisting.

I'd love to have a top 5 post player here, but unfortunately our last one left and the queue to replace him (and recruit others over the years) has been rather thin. Of course it could be better, but what exactly are our other options here?

All things considered it's ok and the best of what we have. I mean we could be starting Meyers & Vonleh right?

 

[Dan Marang]

Vonleh isn't a starting PF either, but we keep on persisting.

I'd love to have a top 5 post player here, but unfortunately our last one left and the queue to replace him (and recruit others over the years) has been rather thin. Of course it could be better, but what exactly are our other options here?

All things considered it's ok and the best of what we have. I mean we could be starting Meyers & Vonleh right?

If we're talking post defense and rim protection- the best combination on the floor involves Davis/Leonard. Personally I'd be totally fine swapping the 2 and having Meyers come out first only to have him come back 1st with the 2nd unit early on.

I'm not saying that we need that ability right now- that's ridiculous. But asking Plumlee to do something he has consistently shown he can't do is almost the definition of insanity. I get the whole learning process, but to me- there's more value in having Meyers learn than having Mason learn. Who has a realistic possibility at growth? Who has the potential? Who has the size? It all points to Meyers- as do the numbers.

 

[BlayZa]

If we're talking post defense and rim protection- the best combination on the floor involves Davis/Leonard. Personally I'd be totally fine swapping the 2 and having Meyers come out first only to have him come back 1st with the 2nd unit early on.

I'm not saying that we need that ability right now- that's ridiculous. But asking Plumlee to do something he has consistently shown he can't do is almost the definition of insanity. I get the whole learning process, but to me- there's more value in having Meyers learn than having Mason learn. Who has a realistic possibility at growth? Who has the potential? Who has the size? It all points to Meyers- as do the numbers.

hold the fuckin phone

are you saying play Meyers more?

fuck. that.

 

[Dan Marang]

hold the fuckin phone

are you saying play Meyers more?

fuck. that.

You haven't been reading my posts lately have you? lol

Might want to dig into the numbers a bit more before you hop on the Plumlee train.

 

[BlayZa]

I'm mildly on the Plum train, heavily on the Davis train and nowhere near the cluster-fuck of the Meyers train.

stats be damned if they point to Meyers being better, dude is a fuckin mess.

how are you looking at meyers stats that make him look so amazing?

looking at hollinger's numbers
davis @ 9, plum @ 17 in WC C's http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c/league/west
vonleh @ 29 meyers @ 25 in WC PF's http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pf/league/west

i think you've stated you're self -confessed meyers fan right? possibly ur using cluelessness % on Defence and ability to miss rebounds as a driving factor in the appraisal? i can see him streaking ahead if thats the case

why vonleh starts and davis doesnt, ill never know

 

[riverman]

You haven't been reading my posts lately have you? lol

Might want to dig into the numbers a bit more before you hop on the Plumlee train.

I think given the new roster, system and young season for this group some patience is required, off season, look at the stats...for now it's almost an extended training camp year without expectations so expecting Plumlee's stats to be consistent seems premature. Yeah, he's not going to beat dominant centers night in and night out but paired with a Meyers Leonard, they could develop the missing rim protection and help defense. I'm all for getting an upgrade for Meyers but Plumlee seems like a good rotation player

 

[riverman]

You haven't been reading my posts lately have you? lol

Might want to dig into the numbers a bit more before you hop on the Plumlee train.

I don't think we've seen nearly enough to have a Plumlee train yet

 

[Blazinaway]

I think we could possibly get Greg Monroe pretty cheap - the key is do we want him? He left Detroit and they got better, he came to the Bucks ad they got worse - is it bad fits or is his play detrimental to a team's success?

 

[oldfisherman]

I think we could possibly get Greg Monroe pretty cheap - the key is do we want him? He left Detroit and they got better, he came to the Bucks ad they got worse - is it bad fits or is his play detrimental to a team's success?

Monroe is playing well; he is averaging almost a double double with a PER of 22.56. It appears he is not a good fit with the Bucks.

According to Bucks fans, they would let Monroe go cheap. One Bucks fan said he would trade Monroe for Meyers straight up.

Didn’t Paul Allen, Olshey and Stotts meet with Monroe in Washington DC last summer trying to get him to sign with the Blazers?

 

[riverman]

Monroe is playing well; he is averaging almost a double double with a PER of 22.56. It appears he is not a good fit with the Bucks.

According to Bucks fans, they would let Monroe go cheap. One Bucks fan said he would trade Monroe for Meyers straight up.

Didn’t Paul Allen, Olshey and Stotts meet with Monroe in Washington DC last summer trying to get him to sign with the Blazers?

In a heartbeat!

 

[ripcityboy]

Wow. Monroe already souring in Milwaukee? That was quick!

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

 

[KeepOnRollin]

Wow. Monroe already souring in Milwaukee? That was quick!

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

That might say everything we need to know about Monroe though. Granted both DET and MIL aren't great destinations but to turn his back this early.....

 

[Dan Marang]

I'm mildly on the Plum train, heavily on the Davis train and nowhere near the cluster-fuck of the Meyers train.

stats be damned if they point to Meyers being better, dude is a fuckin mess.

how are you looking at meyers stats that make him look so amazing?

looking at hollinger's numbers
davis @ 9, plum @ 17 in WC C's http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c/league/west
vonleh @ 29 meyers @ 25 in WC PF's http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pf/league/west

i think you've stated you're self -confessed meyers fan right? possibly ur using cluelessness % on Defence and ability to miss rebounds as a driving factor in the appraisal? i can see him streaking ahead if thats the case

why vonleh starts and davis doesnt, ill never know

You've kind of made my point for me. Take a look at the link in my signature. Meyers isn't a PF and Plumlee isn't a C. It's really that simple.

 

[BonesJones]

I'm mildly on the Plum train, heavily on the Davis train and nowhere near the cluster-fuck of the Meyers train.

stats be damned if they point to Meyers being better, dude is a fuckin mess.

how are you looking at meyers stats that make him look so amazing?

looking at hollinger's numbers
davis @ 9, plum @ 17 in WC C's http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c/league/west
vonleh @ 29 meyers @ 25 in WC PF's http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pf/league/west

i think you've stated you're self -confessed meyers fan right? possibly ur using cluelessness % on Defence and ability to miss rebounds as a driving factor in the appraisal? i can see him streaking ahead if thats the case

why vonleh starts and davis doesnt, ill never know

PER is the most overused/overrated stat ever made

 

[BlayZa]

PER is the most overused/overrated stat ever made

even outside of PER he's eating ass at everything else as well.

 

[kjironman1]

Did not really know how Monroe was doing? To tell you the truth i kind of forgot about him.

 

[BonesJones]

even outside of PER he's eating ass at everything else as well.

As well as leading the team in plus minus.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

 

[BlayZa]

As well as leading the team in plus minus.

and you say PER is a over-rated? +/- is heavily influenced by EVERYONE on the court at the same time he is, nothing even close to an individuals statistic and if you've cringed as much as most people do when he's on the court, i think we can attribute a lot of that extrapolation to the others on the court at the same time - crabbe - davis - harky - whoever.

cliff beats him out at PF on real plus minus @ espn interestingly enough , ed davis on the other hand is 16 for C's.

top 12 +/- in the league has 4x GS and 4x OKC players - it benefits great 'teams'.

 

[mook]

I'm mildly on the Plum train, heavily on the Davis train and nowhere near the cluster-fuck of the Meyers train.

stats be damned if they point to Meyers being better, dude is a fuckin mess.

how are you looking at meyers stats that make him look so amazing?

In January over 9 games he's shooting .455 from three, .533 fg%. He's not amazing, and he's still only putting up 9pts/5rebs, but if you combine last season and this one, the first 28 games of this season where he shot like crap seem like more of the aberration.

Hopefully he can build on recent success. At the rate he's going he'll be back in the starting lineup fairly soon.

 

[Dan Marang]

and you say PER is a over-rated? +/- is heavily influenced by EVERYONE on the court at the same time he is, nothing even close to an individuals statistic and if you've cringed as much as most people do when he's on the court, i think we can attribute a lot of that extrapolation to the others on the court at the same time - crabbe - davis - harky - whoever.

cliff beats him out at PF on real plus minus @ espn interestingly enough , ed davis on the other hand is 16 for C's.

top 12 +/- in the league has 4x GS and 4x OKC players - it benefits great 'teams'.

Do a quick google search on RPM- it's a junk stat that ESPN holds as proprietary b/c they know if they put out the methodology it would either A: blow up in their face b/c they copied and tweaked a measurable or two and rebranded it or B: people look at the work down and peer review it and call it the useless stat that it is. If you go through every post criticizing it, nearly everyone in analytics laughs at it. You can't use a proprietary formula and then claim it the end all be all, ya know because, reasons. It's the same thing with their QBR non-sense. They package up and market these great new stats that everyone is supposed to just accept without any reasoning or objective criticism. If Cliff Alexander in 20 minutes of play time is qualifying and beating someone in a statistic- that should tell you instantly it's a junk stat.

As far as +/- , I'm not a huge fan of it b/c you can't parse out the individual aspects- however it's a nice cursory tool when looking at multiple lineups. If someone has a higher +/- and that carries over across a variety of lineups it's usually a good indicator that positive things are happening with that player on the floor. Not a guarantee, but a possibility, and that's how I use it. It's informative but not necessarily indicative of anything.

Then there's PER- color me suspicious of any metric that pens Mason Plumlee as a +3 expected wins added- more than Duncan, Gobert, Bogut, and Adams. I mean... by that metric Jokic is better than all of those players?! That's when you just have to stop. Step away from the keyboard, and burn that thing to the ground.

 

[riverman]

The most important stat in basketball is not the individual stat in my view, it's the team stat...all you need to know is the percentage in the win/loss column. I think far too often we tend to isolate individual stats and not look at the system as a collective. When asked about Golden States success..Dame said their defense is a cohesive string that clicks...this is the area we need to improve...the team's ability to defend and score as a team. 2 seasons ago we were the best defensively with Joel Freeland in the game and not because of his individual stats, it was how he anchored the defense

 

[oldfisherman]

I believe free throw % is probably the only pure stat for comparing a player’s individual skill level to other players, and is important.

The assist to turn over ratio may not be a 100% pure individual stat, but a good indicator of how well a player takes care of the ball, as well as a possible indicator of BBIQ.

After that, the individual ratings turn into voodoo theories based on faulty models.

When analyzing players, computer models are not anywhere near as accurate as the old eye test and sometimes the gut test.

 

[kjironman1]

I agree very tough to come up with a pure stat. Better looks generated by better screens more assists produced by better looks created by better screens and so on. There is something to be said for rebounding though. Hard work does get more rebounds and yes free throws do single themselves out.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Mozgov??????