Notice A good info read for Climate change enthusiast.

[MarAzul]

Current flow through the Bering Strait brings Warm Pacific water to the cold Arctic Ocean. But this is only true
part of the time over, say 40,000 years. The current now is mostly North thru this Strait, as the shot of Diomede would indicate with Ice stacking up on the South side of Diomede Is. This makes it a very odd place, most straits in the world, the current changes direction with the Tides.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=17&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiBqZOz8bDhAhVBiqwKHRmXAAw4ChAWMAZ6BAgEEAE&url=http://kawerak.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/OC-report-for-web.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3M-LI8aNQIkEehMOT_uI5V

https://frontierscientists.com/2015/06/discerning-ocean-currents-current/
Back when the indigenous people came to American, the Strait was land and Tiaga forest was all Glacier.
No warm Pacific waters could get to the Arctic ocean. Thinking of this makes one wonder what happens when the currents of Sea do not flow. They only flow to maintain equal level relative to the center of gravity of the earth. It sure will get cold where those current now bring warmth from the tropics.

 

[MarAzul]

There was about the volume of five Mississippi Rivers running through the Bering Strait. It is probably time to remeasure this as the rate of rise of the seas appears to be diminishing. If the currents are diminishing, this would be the place to detect it. Rising less should result in less flow volume and NASA does show reduced increase.

 

[dviss1]

Really quickly, what's Climate Change "enthusiast"?

 

[MarAzul]

Really quickly, what's Climate Change "enthusiast"?

This is pretty enthusiastic! No?

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-e...world-will-end-in-12-years-if-we-dont-address

 

[MarAzul]

Another good read. I don't necessarily agree with the conclusions, except in the short term. The results will indeed be difficult to deal with, including food shortages, depending on how long we are in this phase.
In the longer view. I am pretty sure the Bering Strait is a toggle point. When the current become slow enough, that it fails to bring sufficient warmth from the tropics to
the Northern latitudes, it gets cold enough to freeze an block the remaining flow from the Pacific to the Arctic, we have a toggle. Very fast reversal in Climate change.
The ice in the North will build very fast, we enter a new Ice age.
How long will that take?

Can Science predict the time? I wish I could find someone working the toward an answer.

The earths History already uncovered through Science shows that it does toggle, but we don't firmly know why or what the timing is. I just look for a possible toggle point.
The Bering Strait is the only thing that seems plausible.

https://news.globallandscapesforum.org/27742/ocean-currents-are-slowing-down-and-thats-bad-news/

 

[dviss1]

This is pretty enthusiastic! No?

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-e...world-will-end-in-12-years-if-we-dont-address

 

[MarAzul]

You maybe excused if you are not keen for the read. @dviss1

 

[MarAzul]

Hey! The Atlantic Ocean currents are slowing too! Wow!
https://www.npr.org/2018/04/13/6022...ent-slows-down-to-1-000-year-low-studies-show
https://www.npr.org/2018/04/13/6022...ent-slows-down-to-1-000-year-low-studies-show
And what's this? scientists disagree??
"While scientists disagree about what's behind the sluggish ocean current, the shift could mean bad news for the climate."
I though I heard, way too often, that scientist were in total agreement!!! Perhaps not, hey!

I guess it has been maybe 12 years ago now when I attended a presentation on the state of the Earth Glaciers. The Phd holding the seminar was from Noaa maybe,
I can't remember but anyway he was charged with monitoring them for ..... His projection was that all the Glaciers on Earth between latitudes 30N and 30S, would be gone with in 20 to 30 years.
I think he was most likely correct, so why are the scientist in disagreement about the cause? Oh! It sure appears that guy giving the presentation on Glacier was spot on.

If the Glaciers no longer feed the rivers with melt water that has been stored ashore for thousands of year, why wouldn't the ocean currents slow down? Ocean Currents are but the means of the oceans to maintain equilibrium with gravity world wide. Less water in, less adjustment needed. The engineering is sound.

 

[MarAzul]

Another interesting article.
It really shows the lack of consensuses about where we are going or how.

""Many have focused on the fact that it's declining very rapidly, and that if the trend continues it will go past a tipping point, bringing a catastrophe such as an ice age. It turns out that none of that is going to happen in the near future. The fast response may instead be part of a natural cycle and there are signs that the decline is already ending."

Weird how the author goes from the focus many, to a blunt statement the none of that is going to happen in the near future??
I sure as hell don't know this.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/07/180718131128.htm

 

[MarAzul]

Now this article is difficult to get grip on. Not only does it illustrate the science of Climate Change is far from being Settled Science, sometimes it doesn't even make sense.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/climate-change-might-not-slow-ocean-circulation-much-thought

"Researchers had thought the strength of that circulation, known by the acronym AMOC, was largely influenced by the sinking of cold freshwater in the Labrador Sea, between Greenland and Canada."

I can't imaging how you can get freshwater (62lbs/cf) to sink in salt water (64 lbs/cf) regardless of temperature Even glacier water, cold as hell is above freezing due to the mere fact that it is water and it flowed into the Sea.

The densest waters are the saline water remaining after Ice is created from Salt water. Some of the salt is left behind as the Ice turns solid rising from the water, leaving very salty water behind. That will sure as hell sink and run to the deepest place in the ocean where there is a path to do so. This water is sometimes as cold as 29deg Fahrenheit. Very cold, salty, and thereby dens and heavy.

All of this water seeks the deep as gravity commands. The entire Arctic ocean and the North Atlantic is drained of the coldest water heading South down the Deep trench



None of the Cold waters of the Arctic run down into the Pacific, because the depth of the water in the Bering Strait is very Shallow. As you might guess, it won't run up hill.
All cold water that do make it into the Pacific from Seas south of the Bering Strait, flow down the trench west of the Aleutian Is chain off the Kamchatka coast



Nearly all of the water required to keep the depth of the Arctic Ocean at Sea level after its cold water run off losses to the North Atlantic, flows through the Bering Strait from the Pacific.

 

[MarAzul]

At this point, you probably noticed, the discussions revolve around things like rising Seas, and the affects on ocean currents, which intern transfer heat from the Tropics to the higher latitudes. This then affects the weather. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say, generates the weather.

But What is a rising Sea? Indeed, what is Sea level? When I wrote in a prior post of the ocean currents being the mean of the oceans to reach equilibrium with gravity across the surface of the earth, I cheated. Sea level is not level at all, and the subject is quite complicated, perhaps beyond my pea brain. But I will give it a go after I return
from the VA. Dang! another trip to the clinic.

Sea Level?

 

[dviss1]

Stop tagging me and figure out why you're the only one in this thread.

 

[MarAzul]

Stop tagging me and figure out why you're the only one in this thread.

Make it so.

 

[MarAzul]

Sea Level. An odd thing this measurement. We measure the heights of Mountain relative to sea level, but this is not a fixed level world wide at any given time. It is no where near the radius of the earth to the surface of the sea. The difference of the radius arm varies by a difference of about 21 kilometer between the equator and the North Pole.
While water being a liquid would flow with the force of gravity to be equal in radius arm length though out the planet if gravity were the loan force at play. But it is not, as you know, we live on a spinning planet, turning the whole planet to face the sun daily. Thank you lord, else we would fry. But this also gives us centrifugal force to contend with, not so much that we humans are stressed by it, or even notice it. But it does affect the Sea level, and that is huge amount. Thus the difference of 21 kilometers. In between, I think it varies by a factor of the Cos of the Latitude and therefor, Latitude 60 perhaps ought to be the average Sea Level measurement, but that would depend on the varying volumes of the entire ocean basin. So I do not know how to pinpoint the latitude except by massive computations.

So what I question is, what the hell are they measuring when they measure the level of the sea changing at any given Island in the sea? The level at any given latitude is the level where forces of gravity and centrifugal force reach equilibrium on the sea at that latitude. A change in the volume of water is not going to be reflected in Sea level except for at the Average level point or less in Latitude.

By the way, the highest Mountain measured in Radius arm length is in Ecuador, not Nepal. The 21 kilometer change in sea level cheats the rightful owner of the record.

Then again, what are they measuring at the Islands around the world. Perhaps the Earth wobble about it's axis?

https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2805/scientists-id-three-causes-of-earths-spin-axis-drift/

Oh BTW
I expect we should thank God for making the Centrifugal force on the Sea just enough to match the diminishing force of gravity as elevation increases or Radius arm lengthens. Otherwise we might lose our Oceans.

 

[dviss1]

Make it so.

Don't ever use lines of the most progressive ship captain of all time.

But your conservative tongue!

 

[barfo]

Butt your conservative tongue!

Fixed the typo.

barfo

 

[MarAzul]

 

[MarAzul]

Don't ever use lines of the most progressive ship captain of all time.

But your conservative tongue!

I fits well. For a long time now.

 

[MarAzul]

The way it looks to me, is the actually volume of the water in the Sea could vary widely and the Sea level at the Equator and much of the surface would remain the same. Since the rotation of earth has remains the same. The gravity has remained the same, so the water will bulge to the same height under the control of equal forces as long as there is enough water to do it.
Shouldn't the sea level be measured up in the Beaufort Sea or the Greenland Sea? Perhaps a station at the top of Greenland where there is no interfering forces from the earths Rotation. Any where in that area would be withing an inch of equal to gravity Sea Level. Any rise will be because of more water that could hardly come from anything but Melt water.
A reduction in the level? Well now that would mean we better start hustling. The Tiaga is going to be put to new use.

Of course other factors affect the apparent level of the sea a great deal in some place like the Pacific. Geological Plate movement, Thermal expansion, Wind and changing current flows. Perhaps causing a change in the volume of the basin. A 1000 mile up lifting of the ocean floor due to a plate shift sure can do it. The Gulf of Alaska lost 40 feet of depth over a great area, in 1964.

Satellite measurement is much better than than local ground station measurement that are simply relative to a non stable point is rather useless. But why measure even with a satellite where other forces can and do effect the measurement. I doubt Thermal expansion will make the density of sea water change enough to vary the height of the centrifugal forced sea level at the equator, but if it does by and inch for a period, what exactly have you measured and it means what?

What is the reference heights they use, where and when? We know from several sciences, that men traveled over land where the Bering strait is now, some 10 to 12 thousand years ago. I am looking at a Navigation chart of that Strait and it show 26 fathoms of water at the deepest point, or 156 feet of water. So we know that the sea at this latitude has risen that much or more in the thousand of years since then. But this point on the earth is above latitude 65, way away from the equator and the maximum centrifugal force. So much less rise from that force. But I don't think we can say the sea rose 156 feet world wide in that same time. I question if it rose at all at the equator? I can not tell from any charts I can find. It seems they totally ignore the huge effect latitude has on sea level. It would not change with time.

Some discussion here on the subject.
https://ocean.si.edu/through-time/ancient-seas/sea-level-rise
Including this gem;
"Scientists agree that the changes in climate that we are seeing today are largely caused by human activity, and it's climate change that drives sea level rise. Sea level started rising in the late 1800s, soon after we started burning coal, gas and other fossil fuels for energy. When burned, these high-energy fuel sources send carbon dioxide up into the atmosphere. Carbon dioxide absorbs heat from the sun and traps it, warming the atmosphere and the planet."

I have no idea why they would print this statement; "Sea level started rising in the late 1800s" Pure nonsense!

 

[MarAzul]

I doubt Thermal expansion will make the density of sea water change enough to vary the height of the centrifugal forced sea level at the equator, but if it does by and inch for a period

This statement I posted above yesterday, is nonsense. The centrifugal force of the earths rotation would not send thermally expanded water higher. The centrifuge effect would cause the more dense water to reach the perimeter boundary, just as the skim milk does in a cream separator, or U235 when looking for bomb making material.

It does seem to be a mixing machine for the oceans waters, dense water being spun to the top for warming, displacing the already warmed water to the sides, feeding the Ekman spiral currents that parallel the Intertropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ)_ and the Equator. Both currents, Southern counterclockwize and Northern clockwize run East to West at this latitude, to begin the gyre in these oceans.

Would it be a shortage of Dense water that might slow this pumping action? Glacier melt isn't really dense. I think the residual water from making ICE from seawater is the dense stuff. If Ice making slows, does the pump water also slow? Perhaps it is the combination of both, less Ice making and less Glacier melt. After all the Glacier melt is a hell of a lot colder an denser than tropical sea water.


1942 current map used by US Submarine. Made into navigational chart by MarAzul.

 

[MarAzul]

Oh Crap!
This article directly contradicts what I projected earlier in a post. I assumed that ocean level at the equator had already reached the point being in equilibrium with the rotational force and the force of gravity. If this is not true then it can and will go higher.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scie...ill-spike-sea-levels-at-the-equator-24739579/
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scie...ill-spike-sea-levels-at-the-equator-24739579/
Perhaps there is not enough water in the basin to reach that point yet. Oh well, one should not build below the high water mark. Corrections needed.

 

[MarAzul]

When I first read about the ocean levels being high at the equator, the article was not so accurate. The 21 KM difference in the equator vs the Poles is not just ocean,
it is the whole damn planet. Heck, 21 km is more than the deepest part of the ocean. Probably my own fault as I was seeking info on the Rotational affect on the Ocean, but got the effect on the Planet.



This image shows the earth and the resulting shape from the centrifugal force of rotation as constrained by gravity. Since all the crust of the earth, is floating on a sea of molten magma, it no doubt has reach it maximum bulge at the equator. It does appear to bulge and diminish like a COS curve between latitude 0 and 90.

Now the info I wanted but can not find is the shape the Ocean as it is affected on the surface of our planet by the centrifugally force. It seems to me that the bulge will not increase more after it reaches the maximum diameter at the equator once the centrifugal force is equal to the gravity at the surface, If the full Cos shape has been formed.
Too little water and the maximum can't be reached, too much and it drawn to the greater gravity at less elevation.

In the past 19000 years, they say the Sea level has risen about 130 meters. I don't know if that is world wide or just where they took measurements. You can't tell from these as near as I can deduce.

Two places tell part of the story, the Bering Strait and the Sunda Shelf and specifically the Straits of Malacca, right on the equator.
These straits were flooded in the last 10 thousand years, so it seem the forces of gravity and rotation were not yet equal at the equator thus the covering of Malacca.
But it is only 24 meter deep at Singapore, Is this the top? has the full Cos shape of the earth's Sea level been filed?

Heck, I don't know, can't find a thing here, just the prediction above, about places on the equator or near that will flood.

It seems to me that the rotating earth working daily on it's seas, looks like a broken centrifugal pump. Part of the housing is missing,
and it doesn't pump with much of a head, but it does move water. Actually perhaps it is two pumps, one centrifugal, and a thermal pump working as a team.

Just a hint from this article.
"Upwelling also takes place along the Equator. Winds blow the surface water north and south. This leaves a void that deep water can upwell into. The nutrients rise to the surface and support a great deal of life in the equatorial oceans." See the Current flow chart.
https://www.ck12.org/earth-science/deep-currents/lesson/Deep-Ocean-Currents-MS-ES/

The waters over the Bering Strait are much deeper than over the Strait of Malacca but why isn't it deeper at Malacca unless the centrifugal force has met it's match and can go no higher? Like the centrifugal pump that has intake water but can pump the head no higher. If it could pump higher and the intake were available, then it would indeed rise. Where is the intake? The Bering strait, just like a the centrifugal pump, the intake is at the axis of rotation (close). But the waters of this Strait run the wrong way, they seek the low point drawn by gravity.

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-Earth-bulge-around-the-equator

 

[MarAzul]

Well, the Sun still heats the tropical seas, the earth still rotates, but the pump is losing efficiency. See the Scientist seek the reason(s). Check out AMOC, Atlantic meridional overturning circulation.

The flow in all thermal expansion systems slow when the water heats up. As long as there is cool water in, then you can get hot water out, the less difference the slower it becomes.

Ha! Is there anyone here that has built a fire in the kitchen range to heat hot water via the heating coils in the range, so you could take a bath?. You can tell with a bare hand, how far down the tank the hot water has accumulated, so you know when your good to go.

Northern Ice 20,000 years ago. Sea level was 130 meters less





19000 years ago the big melt was on

8000 - 9000 years ago the Bering and Malacca Strait where beginning to be cover by the Seas. Sea level had to rise 83 meter to begin conversion of the Bering Strait, and 106 meter at Malacca.

Northern
What is left of the Ice sheets today. Still have sea Ice in varying amounts. I even can see it is building
via the Canadian Ice watch facilities.



Southern
Antarctica and the Great Southern Ocean.
I love this view of the Earth. Seeing the Great Southern Ocean makes the others seem as mere bays.

You all might want to weigh in now.
Do you see variance in views by Scientist?
Can you get a grasp of the architecture, if not the nitty gritty Science?

Then there is the big question, you all will need to answer up with, by your votes.
Can you change what began by giving up your heat, your ride, perhaps your job by not using fuel that you began using way way after the oceans began to rise?

It seems sayings like, The horses are already gone, or the Cats are out of the bag, are appropriate at this point.

Hadn't we better get on with beginning to deal with water shortages? After all the mountain Glaciers are gone too, or soon.

But Oh! Are we going to need fuel, when this engine recycles! I don't know when. Is anyone working on an answer? I can't find them.

 

[riverman]

Hadn't we better get on with beginning to deal with water shortages?

This is the most important issue of all in my view. China has rapidly turned into a desert and had to adapt on the fly. I have water..good water under my property..spring fed streams..it's my idea of true wealth

 

[riverman]

Interesting article Marz...enjoyed the read.

 

[Stevenson]

Well, the Sun still heats the tropical seas, the earth still rotates, but the pump is losing efficiency. See the Scientist seek the reason(s). Check out AMOC, Atlantic meridional overturning circulation.

The flow in all thermal expansion systems slow when the water heats up. As long as there is cool water in, then you can get hot water out, the less difference the slower it becomes.

Ha! Is there anyone here that has built a fire in the kitchen range to heat hot water via the heating coils in the range, so you could take a bath?. You can tell with a bare hand, how far down the tank the hot water has accumulated, so you know when your good to go.

Northern Ice 20,000 years ago. Sea level was 130 meters less


View attachment 25505


19000 years ago the big melt was on

8000 - 9000 years ago the Bering and Malacca Strait where beginning to be cover by the Seas. Sea level had to rise 83 meter to begin conversion of the Bering Strait, and 106 meter at Malacca.

Northern
What is left of the Ice sheets today. Still have sea Ice in varying amounts. I even can see it is building
via the Canadian Ice watch facilities.


View attachment 25506 View attachment 25507
Southern
Antarctica and the Great Southern Ocean.
I love this view of the Earth. Seeing the Great Southern Ocean makes the others seem as mere bays.

You all might want to weigh in now.
Do you see variance in views by Scientist?
Can you get a grasp of the architecture, if not the nitty gritty Science?

Then there is the big question, you all will need to answer up with, by your votes.
Can you change what began by giving up your heat, your ride, perhaps your job by not using fuel that you began using way way after the oceans began to rise?

It seems sayings like, The horses are already gone, or the Cats are out of the bag, are appropriate at this point.

Hadn't we better get on with beginning to deal with water shortages? After all the mountain Glaciers are gone too, or soon.

But Oh! Are we going to need fuel, when this engine recycles! I don't know when. Is anyone working on an answer? I can't find them.

You sure like science, at least when it's convenient.

 

[MarAzul]

I have water..good water under my property.

I have the best water here in Bandon that I have had anywhere. A 60 foot well drilled into a pea gravel seam over sold rock. It rises about 40 ' in the well, great drinking water. I go to the trouble of hauling it to the boat to fill my tanks.

Yep, I agree, China will be the first to experience big trouble or catastrophic trouble from water shortages. India next. I sort of think China knows this too.
They have now Dammed every river running through China, or soon will. But the trouble will hit hard when the Mountain Glaciers are no more.

We ought to expand the hell out of the Dams on the Missouri River System, and the Snake too. California should get at it also.

 

[MarAzul]

You sure like science, at least when it's convenient.

It's always convenient. It is always with me.

 

[MarAzul]

Just an observation. According to the read statistics for this thread, it has been read 68 times since I posted the last of the main parts of the subject.
Reading but not commenting. Is this not strange for S2?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Earth without water.