A topic worthy of a debate.......

[Rick2583]

Okay I think its pretty much a given that the following hitters will make the HOF, Griffey, Thome, Frank Thomas & Chipper Jones. But what about other players that hit over 400 HRs & had pretty good careers? Guys like.......

1) Fred McGriff = 493 / 1,550 / 284 with 2,490 hits
2) Carlos Delgado = 473 / 1,512 / 280 with 2,038 hits
3) Jeff Bagwell = 449 / 1,529 / 297 with 2,314 hits plus an MVP & ROY
4) Vlad Guerrero = 449 / 1,496 / 318 with 2,590 hits plus an MVP
5) Mike Piazza = 427 / 1,335 / 308 with 2,127 hits plus 12 ASGs & ROY

Now before answering keep in mind that the following 2 players with over 400 HRs are currently IN the HOF.....

1) Willie Stargell = 475 / 1,540 / 282 with 2,232 hits plus an MVP
2) Andre Dawson = 438 / 1,591 / 279 with 2,774 hits plus an MVP & ROY
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Okay lets step down a few pegs, how about players that had pretty good careers while hitting over 375 HRs? guys like.............

1) Dwight Evans = 385 / 1,384 / 272 with 2,446 hits & 8 GGs
2) Harold Baines = 384 / 1,628 / 289 with 2,866 hits
3) Jeff Kent = 377 / 1,518 / 290 with 2,461 hits and an MVP

Now again before answering keep in mind that the following players are currently IN the HOF.......

1) Jim Rice = 382 / 1,451 / 298 with 2,452 hits and an MVP
2) Orlando Cepeda = 379 / 1,365 / 297 with 2,351 hits and an MVP & ROY
3) Tony Perez = 379 / 1,652 / 279 with 2,732 hits
4) Carlton Fisk = 376 / 1,330 / 269 with 2,356 hits and was ROY
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Now of course I have my opinions which I'll share as we go on. Right now I'll be interested to see what you guys think, LET THE DEBATING BEGIN.......

 

[Majorball]

Good post Rick.

1) Fred McGriff = 493 / 1,550 / 284 with 2,490 hits
I feel the Crime Dog gets in. Not only for his offense but he was more than adequate at 1B.

2) Carlos Delgado = 473 / 1,512 / 280 with 2,038 hits
I remember a Spring Training game his rookie year in Dunedin and he drove a ball into the wind that cleared the fences and into the park behind the spring training facility. The ball just jumped off his bat. The HR total surprised me when I saw the post. I feel he is going to wait if ever to get in. Maybe 2 one dimensional.

3) Jeff Bagwell = 449 / 1,529 / 297 with 2,314 hits plus an MVP & ROY
He is close, and I say he ultimately gets in. Good both ways, hitting and in the field

4) Vlad Guerrero = 449 / 1,496 / 318 with 2,590 hits plus an MVP
I too feel he will ultimately get in, same as Bagwell good both ways for much of his career.

5) Mike Piazza = 427 / 1,335 / 308 with 2,127 hits plus 12 ASGs & ROY
Ultimately yes, a very dynamic hitter at a difficult position.

Now for the next level.

1) Dwight Evans = 385 / 1,384 / 272 with 2,446 hits & 8 GGs
I say no, I liked him as a player and truly had a gun for an arm

2) Harold Baines = 384 / 1,628 / 289 with 2,866 hits
I say yes to Harold, maybe because he was well liked to back the stats.

3) Jeff Kent = 377 / 1,518 / 290 with 2,461 hits and an MVP
I don't think so, just a gut feeling,

So there you have it, I also feel that some of these guys mentioned above may benefit over time because of the PED era and the lack of consideration those guys may get for enhancements may allow the groups mentioned above to get in.

 

[Rick2583]

Good response Frank but you failed to explain why no on Kent even though he had similar #s to both Rice & Cepeda who are both in the hall. Also I'm guessing that Fisk got in more for the position he played because his #s are inferior to Evans.

It is a very interesting debate as there are many players that are in that I don't think should be in. Its just hard to say that if you hit 290 with 400 HRs & 1500 RBI & get into the hall why I CAN'T get in by hitting 288 with 396 HRs & 1510 RBI. Which is pretty much where my comparisons in this thread go.

 

[Majorball]

I personally never liked Jeff Kemp as a person and the only time I rooted for him was in the dugout with Bonds. He did not appear to be a good team player.

 

[Majorball]

For what it's worth, here is an article on the subject from the ESPN New York's Matthews who I don't usually agree with but do this time.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/yankees/post/_/id/68165/my-hall-ballot-moose-yes-morris-no

 

[Rick2583]

For what it's worth, here is an article on the subject from the ESPN New York's Matthews who I don't usually agree with but do this time.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/yankees/post/_/id/68165/my-hall-ballot-moose-yes-morris-no

Good article but I don't agree on Schilling. His #s just don't warrant consideration IMO. And Walker yes a great hitter & 3 time batting champ & one of only a few players to have 3 straight 360+ seasons BUT....he had a low hit count (2,160) & had the benefit of hitting at Coors field.

 

[BigDaddyAl1973]

Hard to compare stats of the late 80's and 90's to those of the 70's as pitching was watered down and parks got smaller.

Sent from my Venue 8 3830 using Tapatalk

 

[Hammerojustice]

Okay I think its pretty much a given that the following hitters will make the HOF, Griffey, Thome, Frank Thomas & Chipper Jones. But what about other players that hit over 400 HRs & had pretty good careers? Guys like.......

1) Fred McGriff = 493 / 1,550 / 284 with 2,490 hits
2) Carlos Delgado = 473 / 1,512 / 280 with 2,038 hits
3) Jeff Bagwell = 449 / 1,529 / 297 with 2,314 hits plus an MVP & ROY
4) Vlad Guerrero = 449 / 1,496 / 318 with 2,590 hits plus an MVP
5) Mike Piazza = 427 / 1,335 / 308 with 2,127 hits plus 12 ASGs & ROY

Now before answering keep in mind that the following 2 players with over 400 HRs are currently IN the HOF.....

1) Willie Stargell = 475 / 1,540 / 282 with 2,232 hits plus an MVP
2) Andre Dawson = 438 / 1,591 / 279 with 2,774 hits plus an MVP & ROY
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay lets step down a few pegs, how about players that had pretty good careers while hitting over 375 HRs? guys like.............

1) Dwight Evans = 385 / 1,384 / 272 with 2,446 hits & 8 GGs
2) Harold Baines = 384 / 1,628 / 289 with 2,866 hits
3) Jeff Kent = 377 / 1,518 / 290 with 2,461 hits and an MVP

Now again before answering keep in mind that the following players are currently IN the HOF.......

1) Jim Rice = 382 / 1,451 / 298 with 2,452 hits and an MVP
2) Orlando Cepeda = 379 / 1,365 / 297 with 2,351 hits and an MVP & ROY
3) Tony Perez = 379 / 1,652 / 279 with 2,732 hits
4) Carlton Fisk = 376 / 1,330 / 269 with 2,356 hits and was ROY
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Now of course I have my opinions which I'll share as we go on. Right now I'll be interested to see what you guys think, LET THE DEBATING BEGIN.......

OK, my 2 cents... the players position has a lot to do with it IMO...

Fred McGriff = 493 / 1,550 / 284 with 2,490 hits, (19 yrs experience), yes... 10 years with 30 or more HRs, only 8 years with 100+ RBI, and averaged almost 300 TB/year... Less than 14 games/error in the field... May take a year or two, but he'll get in...
Carlos Delgado = 473 / 1,512 / 280 with 2,038 hits, (17 yrs experience), Not sure... 11 years with 30 or more HRs, only 9 years with 100+ RBI (1 with 99), and averaged over 315 TB/year... also less than 14 games/error in the field... may take him a tad longer than McGriff due to two fewer years in the bigs...
Jeff Bagwell = 449 / 1,529 / 297 with 2,314 hits plus an MVP & ROY, (15 yrs experience), Tough call... 9 years with 30 or more HRs (including 3 with 40 or more), 8 years with 100+ RBI (1 with 98 and 1 with 96), and averaged over 315 TB/year... more than 16 games/error, so was better defensively than previous two plus had the MVP, ROY, and GG. I give him an edge over Delgado for sure... but McGriff is still ahead of Bagwell in my eyes.
Vlad Guerrero = 449 / 1,496 / 318 with 2,590 hits plus an MVP, (16 yrs experience),... 8 years with 30 or more HRs, 10 years with 100+ RBI, averaged 340 TB/year, less than 13 games/error, but had a cannon for an arm... I don't think he gets in... too many other strong OF out there..
Mike Piazza = 427 / 1,335 / 308 with 2,127 hits plus 12 ASGs & ROY, (16 yrs experience), NO BRAINER IMO due to his position... 10 Silver Sluggers, 9 seasons with 30+ HRs, only 6 years with 100+ RBI (but 4 seasons with 92, 93, 94, & 98 respectively), averaged just under 320 TB/year, just over 13 games/error, but an incredible bat for a catcher.... Some of the catchers in the HOF include Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra, Roger Bresnahan, Roy Campanella, Gary Carter, Mickey Cochrane, Bill Dickey, Buck Ewing, Rick Ferrell, Carlton Fisk, Gabby Hartnett, Ernie Lombardi, & Ray Schalk... and with a .308 BA, he isn't top, but definitely in the upper half...also in the upper half for OBP, but with a .545 SLG, he is by far better than the next best (.500), only 2 have more total hits, Johnny Bench is the closest to Piazzas HR total of 427 with 389, only 2 have more RBI, about middle of the pack for R, SB, not that good as only 1 had less...

Next tier
Dwight Evans = 385 / 1,384 / 272 with 2,446 hits & 8 GGs, (20 years experience), only 3 years with 30+ HRs, only 4 years with 100+ RBI, just over 260 TB/year, 2 SS, but over 36 games before committing an error when in the OF... OK numbers offensively, but great in the field... Jim Rice (19 years experience) who has fairly comparable numbers finished in the top 5 in MVP voting 6 times including that 1 win... Evans only 2 times and never won... I think his offensive numbers might hold him back...
Harold Baines = 384 / 1,628 / 289 with 2,866 hits (22 years experience), 0 years with 30+ HRs (only 3 years with 25+ HRs), only 3 years with 100+ RBI, just over 264 TB/year, only 1 SS, and over 22 games before committing an error... I don't think he's got enough to get in... defense is good, just not enough to get him by over the offensive numbers... Longevity will help, but not enough IMO
Jeff Kent = 377 / 1,518 / 290 with 2,461 hits and an MVP, (17 years experience), only 3 years with 30+ HRs (only 6 years with 25+ HRs), 8 years with 100+ RBI, just under 300 TB/year, 4 SS, Just over 10 games/error at 2B, just under 5 games/error at 3B, just under 17 games/error at 1B, and 3 games/error at SS (only 3 games though)... so defensively, he was not that great... offensively, ok... but with the vast majority of his career at 2B he had better numbers than most 2Bs (pre-Cano)... Rogers Hornsby had the most HRs of 2B in the HOF, so Kent blows him away who will likely be blown away by Cano... So his power numbers for a 2B will likely carry him in...

 

[blgridesagain]

Okay lets step down a few pegs, how about players that had pretty good careers while hitting over 375 HRs? guys like.............

1) Dwight Evans = 385 / 1,384 / 272 with 2,446 hits & 8 GGs
2) Harold Baines = 384 / 1,628 / 289 with 2,866 hits
3) Jeff Kent = 377 / 1,518 / 290 with 2,461 hits and an MVP

Now again before answering keep in mind that the following players are currently IN the HOF.......

1) Jim Rice = 382 / 1,451 / 298 with 2,452 hits and an MVP
2) Orlando Cepeda = 379 / 1,365 / 297 with 2,351 hits and an MVP & ROY
3) Tony Perez = 379 / 1,652 / 279 with 2,732 hits
4) Carlton Fisk = 376 / 1,330 / 269 with 2,356 hits and was ROY

_____________________________________________________________

Piazza (catcher) and Vlad - YES

I wouldn't have voted for Andre Dawson - very good all around player, good guy. Not a Hall of Famer
Willie Stargell was a major force as a power hitter in his day and a very good hitter.
I would certainly vote for Stargell.
He won the MVP in'79 but he had much better seasons '69 - mid70s when he finished 2nd,3rd and 2nd in the MVP voting and his .529 career SLG% speaks for itself.
(remember that stat? SLUGGING, not "OPS")
He also played for a period during the pitchers era when pitchers were throwing from the higher mound.

Evans, Baines - no,
Kent- fancy offensive career numbers from 2b,
..never thought of him as a "GOOD" defensive 2b.-- NO
Cepeda - yes
Rice - yes (but he should give his '78 MVP trophy to Ron Guidry, lol)
Perez ? I just don't think of Perez as a Hall of Famer, I guess his career totals say YES.
Fisk - amassed good career power numbers as a catcher- .269 BA,
Knocked in 100 runs twice in 24 seasons and over 80 two other times.
Because he was a catcher - I would begrudgingly vote for him.

 

[Rick2583]

Okay lets step down a few pegs, how about players that had pretty good careers while hitting over 375 HRs? guys like.............

1) Dwight Evans = 385 / 1,384 / 272 with 2,446 hits & 8 GGs
2) Harold Baines = 384 / 1,628 / 289 with 2,866 hits
3) Jeff Kent = 377 / 1,518 / 290 with 2,461 hits and an MVP

Now again before answering keep in mind that the following players are currently IN the HOF.......

1) Jim Rice = 382 / 1,451 / 298 with 2,452 hits and an MVP
2) Orlando Cepeda = 379 / 1,365 / 297 with 2,351 hits and an MVP & ROY
3) Tony Perez = 379 / 1,652 / 279 with 2,732 hits
4) Carlton Fisk = 376 / 1,330 / 269 with 2,356 hits and was ROY

_____________________________________________________________

I wouldn't have voted for Andre Dawson - very good all around player, good guy. Not a Hall of Famer
Willie Stargell was a major force as a power hitter in his day and a very good hitter.
I would certainly vote for Stargell.
He won the MVP in'79 but he had much better seasons '69 - mid70s when he finished 2nd,3rd and 2nd in the MVP voting and his .529 career SLG% speaks for itself. (remember that stat? ....SLUGGING not "OPS")

Evans, Baines - no,
Kent- fancy offensive career numbers, never thought of him as a "GOOD" defensive 2b.-- NO
Cepeda - yes
Rice - yes (but he should give his '78 MVP trophy to Ron Guidry, lol)
Perez ? I never for one moment, ever thought of Tony Perez as one of the very best players/hitters in the league.
Fisk - amassed good career power numbers as a catcher. Knocked in 100 runs twice in 24 seasons and over 80 two other times. Because he was a catcher - I would begrudgingly vote for him.

Cepeda, Rice, Fisk & Perez are already in the Hall. I was using them as comparisons to guys not in but had similar numbers. (Evans, Baines & Kent).

 

[blgridesagain]

Cepeda, Rice, Fisk & Perez are already in the Hall. I was using them as comparisons to guys not in but had similar numbers. (Evans, Baines & Kent).

_______________________________

I know Rick...I should've made it clear that I was commenting whether or not I agree with some of those having been elected to the HOF.

The Hall is slowly being watered down.....it's not for the very good who manage to hang around/play an extra 4-5 years and collect a few more numbers to add to their career totals at a mediocre pace. This is my biggest problem with some of these Hall of Famers.