Politics Above the Law

[Further]

its an interesting conundrum and I’m really not sure how the Supreme Court will view these subjects.

There is a basic core American belief that nobody is above the law. But Trump is now claiming that he
1) cannot be indicted by special counsel
2) cannot be convicted of obstruction of justice because that would be obtrrcting himself
3) He can pardon himself


Number one and three seem to have qualified legal scholars on both sides and number two seems like grasping at straws.

 

[Chris Craig]

its an interesting conundrum and I’m really not sure how the Supreme Court will view these subjects.

There is a basic core American belief that nobody is above the law. But Trump is now claiming that he
1) cannot be indicted by special counsel
2) cannot be convicted of obstruction of justice because that would be obtrrcting himself
3) He can pardon himself


Number one and three seem to have qualified legal scholars on both sides and number two seems like grasping at straws.

And, apparently he could shoot Mueller and get away wth it

 

[Chris Craig]

Has any other US president publically claimed to be above the law?

 

[BrianFromWA]

I feel like people keep getting into this trap of believing with 100% certainty everything that comes out of the President's mouth, in real-time, and keep looking dumb afterward when time plays out.

First, the whole "Special Counsel not reportable to anyone except the subject of the investigation" thing is blown out the window when you talk about how deeply buried Rosenstein is in this. But whatever.
2) if found guilty, it would likely be referred to the Supreme Court for adjudication because I think they haven't ruled on that before.
3) If not shot down by the SC, then there are methods for Articles of Impeachment to make him a private citizen again.
4) If none of those play out, he's the President until voted out or term-limited out.
5) None of those have any bearing with what he tweets or says or gets quoted on. We're 3 years into this (politically) and almost 40 years into him doing this in the business world. Yet his words are not the red-letter Gospel.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Has any other US president publically claimed to be above the law?

I don't know. Many have said so privately. Some have it in their biographies.

 

[BrianFromWA]

On a slight tangent, saw this today:

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Who's Melanie?

 

[BrianFromWA]

I think TheGoodGodAbove culturally appropriated and Muricanized the First Lady's name.

 

[Chris Craig]

Who's Melanie?

That is Melanias American name

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

its an interesting conundrum and I’m really not sure how the Supreme Court will view these subjects.

There is a basic core American belief that nobody is above the law. But Trump is now claiming that he
1) cannot be indicted by special counsel
2) cannot be convicted of obstruction of justice because that would be obtrrcting himself
3) He can pardon himself


Number one and three seem to have qualified legal scholars on both sides and number two seems like grasping at straws.

If the Supreme Court were to rule in his favor then he wouldn't be above the law.

 

[Further]

I feel like people keep getting into this trap of believing with 100% certainty everything that comes out of the President's mouth, in real-time, and keep looking dumb afterward when time plays out.

First, the whole "Special Counsel not reportable to anyone except the subject of the investigation" thing is blown out the window when you talk about how deeply buried Rosenstein is in this. But whatever.
2) if found guilty, it would likely be referred to the Supreme Court for adjudication because I think they haven't ruled on that before.
3) If not shot down by the SC, then there are methods for Articles of Impeachment to make him a private citizen again.
4) If none of those play out, he's the President until voted out or term-limited out.
5) None of those have any bearing with what he tweets or says or gets quoted on. We're 3 years into this (politically) and almost 40 years into him doing this in the business world. Yet his words are not the red-letter Gospel.

This is naive on your part. If a president can avoid the trial and his party is in power then they can use the lack of adjudicated evidence as reason to continue to support the President and avoid the unsightly nature of having your parties president impeached

Basically, without the indictment holding water it allows people to continue to play politics instead of moving towards a legitimate impeachment proceeding.

I don’t have much faith in our Congress right now.

 

[Further]

If the Supreme Court were to rule in his favor then he wouldn't be above the law.

Nice reasoning but a king is above the law in common vernacular even if he has made the laws say the opposite. This is not a question of language but rather a question of how to organize a fair and lasting democracy.

 

[Further]

Nice reasoning but a king is above the law in common vernacular even if he has made the laws say the opposite. This is not a question of language but rather a question of how to organize a fair and lasting democracy.

If the Supreme Court were to rule in his favor then he wouldn't be above the law.

and I’m not even arguing at this moment that Trump is incorrect in his interpretation of law, I’m reallly not sure. I’m simply stating that if Trump is correct in his assertions than there is a gigantic flaw in the law that will eventually lead to the downfall of the United States as a democracy.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

and I’m not even arguing at this moment that Trump is incorrect in his interpretation of law, I’m reallly not sure. I’m simply stating that if Trump is correct in his assertions than there is a gigantic flaw in the law that will eventually lead to the downfall of the United States as a democracy.

That's different to me. CEO of a company isn't acccountable to his employees. He's their boss. The remedy is the shareholders or congress in Trump's case.

We elect the President and tell him to go for it. Our safety net is congress. If congress doesn't impeach him for something he's done....it is what it is.

 

[BrianFromWA]

This is naive on your part. If a president can avoid the trial and his party is in power then they can use the lack of adjudicated evidence as reason to continue to support the President and avoid the unsightly nature of having your parties president impeached

And if that's the case, the people will either vote in a new Congress that will, or they will be happy with the decision. The President's shenanigans, if you are correct, pale in comparison to things Congress has actually disagreed vehemently about that are worse for us, such as blocking civil rights, slavery/civil war, isolationism/America First, treatment of Native American treaties, etc. And they made it out ok.

Basically, without the indictment holding water it allows people to continue to play politics instead of moving towards a legitimate impeachment proceeding. I don’t have much faith in our Congress right now.

I have more faith in Congress, and in their eventual accountability, than I do in "special counsels" who seem to be digging up more and more evidence that the previous administration (and their mid-to-senior bureaucratic lackeys and hangers-on) had waaaaaay more to do with election tampering than a Russian entity did. But I've been waiting for the full reports to come out.

 

[Further]

That's different to me. CEO of a company isn't acccountable to his employees. He's their boss. The remedy is the shareholders or congress in Trump's case.

We elect the President and tell him to go for it. Our safety net is congress. If congress doesn't impeach him for something he's done....it is what it is.

That’s a fair view, just not realistic considering how shitty so many politicians are.

The way information is countered politically right now is with finger pointing, obfuscation and outright lies and the bulk of republicans who used to oppose such deceptive measures are now backing them because it’s their guy.

So if Mueller comes out with 20 points that together make a very coherent case for indictment and conviction but separately can be twisted and blurred then that’s what will happen. There will be a zillion talking heads saying so many different things, lies and truths and confusing the matter so that “witch hunt” can continue to be the chorus even when actual evidence is available.

 

[Further]

And if that's the case, the people will either vote in a new Congress that will, or they will be happy with the decision. The President's shenanigans, if you are correct, pale in comparison to things Congress has actually disagreed vehemently about that are worse for us, such as blocking civil rights, slavery/civil war, isolationism/America First, treatment of Native American treaties, etc. And they made it out ok.


I have more faith in Congress, and in their eventual accountability, than I do in "special counsels" who seem to be digging up more and more evidence that the previous administration (and their mid-to-senior bureaucratic lackeys and hangers-on) had waaaaaay more to do with election tampering than a Russian entity did. But I've been waiting for the full reports to come out.

I have lost faith in the presidency, the congress and the American people at large. But the President is a symbol of our democracy and there is just one. So any ill actions by the presidency is magnified where as there are many congress people who are always falling short in character and millions of the public ho falter. So regardless of where the most blame lies, the Presidency is where we should expect the most virtue and adherence to laws and norms.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

I have lost faith in the presidency, the congress and the American people at large. But the President is a symbol of our democracy and there is just one. So any ill actions by the presidency is magnified where as there are many congress people who are always falling short in character and millions of the public ho falter. So regardless of where the most blame lies, the Presidency is where we should expect the most virtue and adherence to laws and norms.

Basically you're catching up to where I was during Desert Storm. We've been doing whatever we want around the world for my entire adult life.

 

[BrianFromWA]

I have lost faith in the presidency, the congress and the American people at large. But the President is a symbol of our democracy and there is just one. So any ill actions by the presidency is magnified where as there are many congress people who are always falling short in character and millions of the public ho falter. So regardless of where the most blame lies, the Presidency is where we should expect the most virtue and adherence to laws and norms.

Wow, I don't know if I could disagree more. First, we're not a democracy. We're a constitutional republic. It's a mistake that too many make. Your/my one vote doesn't matter at all for almost anything to do with the federal government. The "symbol" of our republic is the Constitution, and it's what everyone who takes oaths promises to preserve, protect and defend. Not the President. Not the Party. Not even your constituency.

The place where you should expect the most adherence to your laws and norms is your neighborhood and city and maaaaybe district. Not to be personified in some Long Island Trust Fund businessman. Or a Chicago Community Organizer with a questionable college background. Or ... If your neighborhood doesn't adhere to your mores, you may want to move to a place where you'll be happier.

Did you vote for the person who won your Senate and House seats? Or had you lost faith before you voted for them? Or are they ok, it's just the rest of the country who elect clowns?

(I don't mean this to be snarky, but reading over it it may come off that way. Apologies in advance--not intended).

 

[Further]

Wow, I don't know if I could disagree more. First, we're not a democracy. We're a constitutional republic. It's a mistake that too many make. Your/my one vote doesn't matter at all for almost anything to do with the federal government. The "symbol" of our republic is the Constitution, and it's what everyone who takes oaths promises to preserve, protect and defend. Not the President. Not the Party. Not even your constituency.

The place where you should expect the most adherence to your laws and norms is your neighborhood and city and maaaaybe district. Not to be personified in some Long Island Trust Fund businessman. Or a Chicago Community Organizer with a questionable college background. Or ... If your neighborhood doesn't adhere to your mores, you may want to move to a place where you'll be happier.

Did you vote for the person who won your Senate and House seats? Or had you lost faith before you voted for them? Or are they ok, it's just the rest of the country who elect clowns?

(I don't mean this to be snarky, but reading over it it may come off that way. Apologies in advance--not intended).

Well I understand how government is set up and where power lies, and that the constitution is certainly the rock of America, but the President is a symbol of our freedom. We are not a monarchy and the fact that in decades past the president stands folly to our laws is a great symbol of the power of he constitution. Once the President is above the law he still remains a symbol but that symbolic meaning switches to a mockery of the rule of law.

 

[Chris Craig]

Nice reasoning but a king is above the law in common vernacular even if he has made the laws say the opposite. This is not a question of language but rather a question of how to organize a fair and lasting democracy.

Trump is no king

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I hereby pardon myself.

 

[Chris Craig]

I hereby pardon myself.

You would!

 

[BrianFromWA]

I hereby pardon myself.

who ponied up the $50?

 

[Chris Craig]

who ponied up the $50?

Wait, did he ban himself, then pardon himself?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

who ponied up the $50?

So far the only one who has paid has been @barfo.

I miss Denny.

 

[Chris Craig]

So far the only one who has paid has been @barfo.

I miss Denny.

I was wondering what happened to him. I assumed he just found a really good deal on priceline.com

 

[julius]

I love how "God" is trolling Trump, by using the name that trump used (for his wife) in a tweet.

Just because he says those things, doesn't mean it's actually true.

 

[jonnyboy]

 

[riverman]

I feel like people keep getting into this trap of believing with 100% certainty everything that comes out of the President's mouth, in real-time, and keep looking dumb afterward when time plays out.

I expect honesty and transparency in my president....sorry but I don't feel dumb after his thousands of public lies...that, "it's only locker room talk" excuse doesn't make anyone look dumb but him....nor his making fun of handicapped journalists....maybe that's all fine and dandy with his supporters but I haven't trusted or believed Trump since the 70s.....he's just like Donald Sterling who lost the Clippers ..the only person looking dumb from what comes out of Trump's mouth or twitter account is Trump