Accountability

[wizenheimer]

And that means one is better than the other on THIS team?

I'm not sure what you're getting at...?

to track the discussion back though it started with the notion that going from Turner to Bazemore somehow mitigated in a positive manner the debacle of the 2016 off-season. I'm saying the Turner/Bazemore swap did nothing to mitigate that portion of 2016 because they are equally bad players and Bazemore's actually a bit more expensive

 

[illmatic99]

I'm not sure what you're getting at...?

to track the discussion back though it started with the notion that going from Turner to Bazemore somehow mitigated in a positive manner the debacle of the 2016 off-season. I'm saying the Turner/Bazemore swap did nothing to mitigate that portion of 2016 because they are equally bad players and Bazemore's actually a bit more expensive

And Bazemore and his 3pt shooting are better for this team this year than Evan ever was for this team during his tenure or Evan currently with the hawks. You decided not to show his 3pt% for obvious reasons because they don't fit your narrative.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

And Bazemore and his 3pt shooting are better for this team this year than Evan ever was for this team during his tenure or Evan currently with the hawks. You decided not to show his 3pt% for obvious reasons because they don't fit your narrative.

Or perhaps because he values TS% more highly than 3P%?

 

[wizenheimer]

And Bazemore and his 3pt shooting are better for this team this year than Evan ever was for this team during his tenure or Evan currently with the hawks. You decided not to show his 3pt% for obvious reasons because they don't fit your narrative.

bullshit

I "decided" not to show his 3 point shooting because 3 point shots aren't the only shots that are taken. It doesn't fucking matter if Bazemore is shooting 36% from the arc when he's also shooting 36% from 2 point range...that's horrible. Bazemore is shooting 36.4% on two's this season; Turner shot 49.4% on two's last season. TS% shows the entire shooting landscape so it's what I used. And assuming that Bazemore's three point shooting is more important than the things Turner did is just that...an assumption, and it's not supported by anything statistically, or by the eyeball test for that matter

bottom line is that neither Bazemore or Turner are good enough to have much of a positive impact for any team. They are below average role players at best, and are both deeply flawed

 

[Orion Bailey]

I'm not sure what you're getting at...?

to track the discussion back though it started with the notion that going from Turner to Bazemore somehow mitigated in a positive manner the debacle of the 2016 off-season. I'm saying the Turner/Bazemore swap did nothing to mitigate that portion of 2016 because they are equally bad players and Bazemore's actually a bit more expensive

Read below. Im getting at the cost difference is negligible considering how each fits with the team.

Bazemore 19.250 mill

Turner 18.6 Mill

So half a mill is your argument. The opposite is Bazemore fits better than half a mill with this tema than Turner did. And I was a turner fan to an extent.

You left off key stats to make your claim. Its a hollow argument because you ommitted a few key items. again. Read below.

And Bazemore and his 3pt shooting are better for this team this year than Evan ever was for this team during his tenure or Evan currently with the hawks. You decided not to show his 3pt% for obvious reasons because they don't fit your narrative.

 

[wizenheimer]

Read below. Im getting at the cost difference is negligible considering how each fits with the team.

Bazemore 19.250 mill

Turner 18.6 Mill

So half a mill is your argument.

no, to be precise it's actually about 2.3 million in salary and tax.

The opposite is Bazemore fits better than half a mill with this tema than Turner did. And I was a turner fan to an extent.

how does Bazemore "fit better"? Personally, I think they both fit poorly, but at least Turner could run the offense for the 2nd unit at times. Bazemore can't

You left off key stats to make your claim. Its a hollow argument because you ommitted a few key items. again. Read below.

what stats did I leave off that make a difference? if you're talking about three's, I'll call the same bullshit on that I called on illamatic because three's are not the only ways possessions end

 

[Orion Bailey]

no, to be precise it's actually about 2.3 million in salary and tax.



how does Bazemore "fit better"? Personally, I think they both fit poorly, but at least Turner could run the offense for the 2nd unit at times. Bazemore can't



what stats did I leave off that make a difference? if you're talking about three's, I'll call the same bullshit on that I called on illamatic because three's are not the only ways possessions end

I just looked up their salaries. How do you figure? Taxes would have been there regardless. The salary of each player is what I listed they are making this season. My calculator says your math is wrong.

And yes. The threes. Anyone who knows this team knows we have been in the tops of the league in 3pt% and attempts the last half decade. To add a shooting guard who doesn't shoot threes is a big omission, regardless of you thinking it is or isn't.

 

[wizenheimer]

I just looked up their salaries. How do you figure? Taxes would have been there regardless. The salary of each player is what I listed they are making this season. My calculator says your math is wrong.

your calculator needs new batteries

Bazemore makes 663K more than Turner

Portland is 13 million over the tax line so they have 3M in tax assessed at the 2.5 tax penalty rate...that's where Bazemore's extra salary is assessed. So then .663 X 2.5 = 1.66M + .663 = 2.3M in salary and tax. It's pretty simple

and yeah, this is quibbling over a minor issue

And yes. The threes. Anyone who knows this team knows we have been in the tops of the league in 3pt% and attempts the last half decade. To add a shooting guard who doesn't shoot threes is a big omission, regardless of you thinking it is or isn't.

two things: both you and illimatic accused me of cherry picking numbers. You also both said I was leaving out stat(S)...plural, But all you guys are talking about is three's...one stat

but like I pointed out, Bazemore's two point shooting has been horrible and he's shooing 4 of those a game. He's at 36% and should be at 50% or higher. That's going to offset almost all of the good his 3 point shooting adds. That's inevitable when somebody shoots that poorly

Bazemore is 13th on the Blazers in PER; 12th in TS%; 12th in eFG%; 13th in 2ptFG%; 14th in winshares/48 and winshares; 9th in value over replacement. Now, the facts are that Turner wasn't much better at those last season things than Bazemore this season. They both suck ,and that just illustrates that trying to somehow spin Bazemore's contributions into some kind of positive is pointless. Maybe he'll get better as the season goes on, but to this point...nope

 

[Orion Bailey]

your calculator needs new batteries

Bazemore makes 663K more than Turner

Portland is 13 million over the tax line so they have 3M in tax assessed at the 2.5 tax penalty rate...that's where Bazemore's extra salary is assessed. So then .663 X 2.5 = 1.66M + .663 = 2.3M in salary and tax. It's pretty simple

and yeah, this is quibbling over a minor issue



two things: both you and illimatic accused me of cherry picking numbers. You also both said I was leaving out stat(S)...plural, But all you guys are talking about is three's...one stat

but like I pointed out, Bazemore's two point shooting has been horrible and he's shooing 4 of those a game. He's at 36% and should be at 50% or higher. That's going to offset almost all of the good his 3 point shooting adds. That's inevitable when somebody shoots that poorly

Bazemore is 13th on the Blazers in PER; 12th in TS%; 12th in eFG%; 13th in 2ptFG%; 14th in winshares/48 and winshares; 9th in value over replacement. Now, the facts are that Turner wasn't much better at those last season things than Bazemore this season. They both suck ,and that just illustrates that trying to somehow spin Bazemore's contributions into some kind of positive is pointless. Maybe he'll get better as the season goes on, but to this point...nope

663 more than Turner. That's what I said! The taxes would have been there no matter who filled the shoes. Did you think he would be able to match EXACT salaries?

Bazemore is a better 3pt shooter and 3pt shooting fits this team better than bid range iso ball that turner often played. Again. I was a Turner fan, but even I get the move.
Your numbers are irrelevant. Bazemore is a better fit for this team than Turner is and neither have been the one to crutch this team.
Time to move on.

 

[B-Roy]

663 more than Turner. That's what I said! The taxes would have been there no matter who filled the shoes. Did you think he would be able to match EXACT salaries?

I cannot tell if you're being serious right now.

 

[tester551]

663 more than Turner. That's what I said! The taxes would have been there no matter who filled the shoes. Did you think he would be able to match EXACT salaries?

To be fair, not accounting for the tax implications is a bit disingenuous. Like it or not, every transaction needs to be viewed through the larger lens of the Team Salary. Wiz clearly stated that the trade cost Portland $2.3m. He's correct here.

Bazemore is a better 3pt shooter and 3pt shooting fits this team better than bid range iso ball that turner often played. Again. I was a Turner fan, but even I get the move.
Your numbers are irrelevant. Bazemore is a better fit for this team than Turner is and neither have been the one to crutch this team. Time to move on.

Agreed.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I cannot tell if you're being serious right now.

A Little of both. I mean the taxes would have been there no matter who we got that had any more salary than Turner right? The point was when the trade was made, the salaries were 663000 apart. not even a mill. How do we know that Baze was supposed to be turned into another trade by now or soon, but our lack of depth has now forced us into keeping him longer? There are many things we don't know when this years team was put together as to what the long term process would be for some of the recent acquisitions.

 

[Orion Bailey]

To be fair, not accounting for the tax implications is a bit disingenuous. Like it or not, every transaction needs to be viewed through the larger lens of the Team Salary. Wiz clearly stated that the trade cost Portland $2.3m. He's correct here.


Agreed.

Only if he remains with the team the whole season though right? And how do we know if that was the plan?

 

[TBpup]

Who are teams #31 & #32? There are only 30 in the NBA by my count.
You must be using that new type of math...

Just like a financial guy, to have trouble with numbers.

It was my nod to the presidential candidate who came to Beaverton and said he had been to all 57 states.

 

[B-Roy]

A Little of both. I mean the taxes would have been there no matter who we got that had any more salary than Turner right? The point was when the trade was made, the salaries were 663000 apart. not even a mill. How do we know that Baze was supposed to be turned into another trade by now or soon, but our lack of depth has now forced us into keeping him longer? There are many things we don't know when this years team was put together as to what the long term process would be for some of the recent acquisitions.

I don't think you understand how the luxury tax works. Just re-read what Wiz posted.

 

[BlayZa]

its a shitty season with injuries.
we've been lucky af to get melo
dame and cj combo seems to be less epic - mostly due to success last year, people take it more seriously and you can almost rely on CJ going iso n fuckin it up pretty often.
we've asked a lot of the people who have had to fill in, some good, some bad, whiteside has been a godsend really.

accountability? dunno where it sits for all this. but some of the on court performances have been trash, Stotts still has no plan b.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I don't think you understand how the luxury tax works. Just re-read what Wiz posted.

oh ill be the first to admit i don't. But i thought tax implications were added at the end of the season. And things can change from now til then?

ill go back and re read tomorrow am when im at a pc.

 

[BonesJones]

The team is so bad that the forum has moved past the argumentative stage (some still linger) into the sobering acceptance stage. I mean, I have people here that seem to be questioning things that I thought they'd never question before, so I've moved onto bigger things (mainly the entirety of Blazers Twitter, Blazers Media, etc.)

I also feel like my activism has changed portions of Blazers radio shows for weeks. What a time to be a Blazers fan!​

 

[BonesJones]

its a shitty season with injuries.
we've been lucky af to get melo
dame and cj combo seems to be less epic - mostly due to success last year, people take it more seriously and you can almost rely on CJ going iso n fuckin it up pretty often.
we've asked a lot of the people who have had to fill in, some good, some bad, whiteside has been a godsend really.

accountability? dunno where it sits for all this. but some of the on court performances have been trash, Stotts still has no plan b.

Eh, Dame is having the most efficient year of his career and is averaging a career high in assists per game.

C.J. is scoring at about the same rate and at the same efficiency as last year, and his playmaking and defense have slightly improved IMO.

So I think you could make the argument this is their best year together yet...

 

[BonesJones]

You made all of this up. 100%. You have zero idea whether there is or is not accountability. Or actually, even if there was. And there is no way you, or any of us, could know. All you have a few snippets from the newspaper and made up a theory.

He literally stated that it's just his "hunch" and his opinion, so I don't know why you felt this response was proper?

 

[Orion Bailey]

The team is so bad that the forum has moved past the argumentative stage (some still linger) into the sobering acceptance stage. I mean, I have people here that seem to be questioning things that I thought they'd never question before, so I've moved onto bigger things (mainly the entirety of Blazers Twitter, Blazers Media, etc.)

I also feel like my activism has changed portions of Blazers radio shows for weeks. What a time to be a Blazers fan!​

i noticed some guy quoting one of your trade ideas on fb but couldn't tag you because of my stoopid phone.

 

[Stevenson]

He literally stated that it's just his "hunch" and his opinion, so I don't know why you felt this response was proper?

Not quite right. His hunch is that accountability has changed and gives a lot of supposed reasons for that. But his proof that there was accountability is that Paul Allen had to be sold on trades (duh) and he met with players (duh x 2.) That is not proof of accountability or proof of change. It's just some cockamamie theory based on a few unrelated, tangential facts.

And we all have those!

 

[oldfisherman]

Not quite right. His hunch is that accountability has changed and gives a lot of supposed reasons for that. But his proof that there was accountability is that Paul Allen had to be sold on trades (duh) and he met with players (duh x 2.) That is not proof of accountability or proof of change. It's just some cockamamie theory based on a few unrelated, tangential facts.

And we all have those!

Agree with your constructive criticism of my hunch. Let me expand my thoughts.

When you see a ship that is dead in the water, taking on water and slowly sinking, while drifting towards more dangerous water, someone needs to take a closer look at that ship.

Right or wrong, this is what I see.

There are enough good rowers on board, but none of them are rowing together to make headway. Not enough good rowers to win a race, but enough to make a respectable showing.

The drillmaster is turning a blind eye to his rowers, letting each set his own pace. He is not helping them to get into a rowing rhythm. The drum he uses to set the rhythm is damaged or not on board.

On the last trip to port, the quartermaster replaced some of the plugs to stop the leaking. One works well but the others appear to be a poor fit. Plus none of his new supplies put the ship into better shape for the next season.


On the bright side. This ship can be saved. We will know the ship is passed saving when the crew drops lifeboats and head for another ship.

However, this ship is overdue for a thorough inspection that will figure out what it will take to make this ship right again, before it is to late to save it.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I’m not blaming him for having optimism and trying to sell tickets... I’m blaming him for not admitting when he fails, and not holding anyone accountable... and instead getting defensive and having disdain for the fans for wanting them held to a higher standard for a team with a league high $147 mil payroll.

Do you really think he was lying? Or just being optimistic?

I don't think anyone here really knows what is in these guys heads at their levels, but i'm willing to bet that every team entering every season says much the same thing. I don't think our players and management are any different. 32 teams enter the season with title aspirations, from the top to the bottom. Its the fans that often have different opinions, often more realistic.

No team is EVER going to come out and say, before the season, that they aren't going to compete. If they did that they would get chased out of town and play to empty houses.

@Orion Bailey ...not sure all 32 teams have title aspirations. In fact, that list is probably under 10 and the reality is, it's really under 5.

Who are teams #31 & #32? There are only 30 in the NBA by my count.
You must be using that new type of math...

Just like a financial guy, to have trouble with numbers.

No. TBpup was the one who stated 32 teams.

Yeah, you tagged me, not quoted me. I just realized that.

With my super investigative skills, I see I indeed DID start this 32 team falacy. I tricked @TBpup into following me ( Yes, No, Yes, No, No, Yes, No, Yes...) and then I got @tester551 to blame pup for it. HAHAHA

My skills are at a peak!!!

 

[TBpup]

@Orion Bailey ...damn my S2 sheep-ness. I trusted you.

 

[Orion Bailey]

@Orion Bailey ...damn my S2 sheep-ness. I trusted you.

im sorry to have let you down! Trust me. Its bot good to trust me.

 

[hoopsjock]

Accountability? Let's take a look: Olshey's plan for the team going into fall camp was basically:

1. Have Whiteside start at center, with have Zach Collins taking some backup minutes until Nurk returned in February. He had Skal and Gasol slated as insurance. I have a hard time finding fault with that plan.

2. Have Zach Collins start at PF, with Toliver, Hezonja, and Skal as options for backup minutes. Nothing wrong with that plan.

3. Have Rodney Hood start at SF, with Bazemore, Hezonja and potentially Little as backups. A little undersized, maybe, but a solid rotation with plenty of firepower nonetheless.

4. CJ starts at SG, with Bazemore and Simons as backups. Fine.

5. Dame starts as PG, with Simons as backup and Hezonja able to take some minutes bringing the ball up. Probably a little thin. I would have preferred to see a veteran PG signed for insurance, but that's something that could have been dealt with prior to the deadline.

His design offered plenty of flexibility, with ending contracts for Whiteside and Bazemore available to work trades prior to the deadline to make ready for a playoff run. From a roster planning standpoint, I see very little to complain about. I'd probably agree with Platy that re-signing Jake Layman instead of spending money on Hezonja would have been a better move, and I'd have preferred to see a veteran PG on the roster in case Simons didn't pan out or an injury happened.

Since Olshey's plan was made, Collins was injured, Gasol didn't heal as expected and was cut, Skal was injured, and Hood was lost for the season. Olshey was able to add Melo as likely the best free agent option out there to replace Collins as starting PF. I don't have a complaint about that.

As I see it, some of the bitching around here has been roughly like seeing an Indy car get clipped in the first couple laps of the race, lose two wheels, have it's alignment knocked totally out of whack, and having the fans complain because, hey, it's still got a top notch engine and transmission so why isn't it competing? The Blazers are reduced to playing AT and Moses Freaking Brown minutes at center. Melo can barely jump and is only 6'8". They're getting out-boarded and they're getting scored on at will in the paint. The coach can't turn big man water into big man wine. I do think that the Blazers can play better, work harder and can maybe stay within striking distance of a playoff berth, but it's not going to be easy.

Olshey can't make a trade without a willing trade partner. Not only that, the team's current needs don't necessarily match their long term needs. A really talented SF would be my top wish for the Blazers long term. I love Rodney Hood, but I'd rather see him as a backup SG/SF and get someone a bit bigger and better defensively as a starter at that position. The team's biggest needs right now are at center, but those needs will be met by spring with the return of Nurk and Collins. Bottom line, I don't see that there's much that's within Olshey's control that you can fault him with.

I just want to take a second to thank you for this post @e_blazer! It was very well thought out and articulate and really puts things in a nice perspective. Even if I don't agree with all of it your logic is sound. I also appreciate that you aren't resorting to bashing anyone to get your point across. Well done, man!

 

[hoopsjock]

Of course you don’t plan for injuries but at the same time you have to be realistic that some will happen. But the team should not be so fragile that all of a sudden you go from championship talk to 7 games under .500 because a couple average players go down. Especially when you still have talent like Dame, CJ, Whiteside, Bazemore ALL HEALTHY making over $110 mil combined!

You can account for injuries when you know about them heading into the season, like with Whiteside replacing Nurk. In order to contend this year though we really couldn't afford an injury to either Dame or one of the starting bigs (at least not until Nurk got back). Under normal circumstances losing Zach isn't season altering but this isn't a normal season. There is a month left to fix the issues moving forward.

 

[hoopsjock]

Bazemore is shooting 36% from 3 on 4 attempts per game this season. Getting that for ET is no "improvement in production?" Have you looked at ET's stats this year?


This is a strawman? Again, do I have to highlight what LAL paid to get rid of Deng/Mozgov? Or MEM with Parsons? etc etc.



The one mistake I've repeatedly gotten Neil for was the stretch of Nicholson. There was literally no reason to do it. If you're gonna kill Neil repeatedly for the CJ extension in every thread, I'm hoping you give him just as much credit for the Nurk one.

Stretching Nicholson was pretty much the only way to avoid being in the luxury tax that season. There probably could have been other moves but this year's tax bill would be higher because of it. It's not ideal and I hated it too but it probably had to be done. Because of it though we also lost Vonleh that season.

 

[hoopsjock]

So what are they in the NBA for then? I'm pretty sure every team has title aspirations, however realistic or not.

I agree that every GM's goal is to win a title. Even the tanking teams are doing so to eventually be good. I don't think anyone lied here, I think the whole organization (Jody, Olshey, Stotts, and the players) truly thought they would be really good this year.